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Old 08-02-2006, 01:06 PM   #51
Lee Salzman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I guess I am with Mike here... The principles which govern Aikido can be taught and taught in a fairly systematic manner. This includes the principles of internal power which Mike talks about and it includes a number of other areas which, in my opinion are generally not well taught in most Aikido.

Aikido can't become an art until you have established mastery of the science.
George, when you make the DVD, I'll buy it.

As someone low down on the aikido totem pole, all I can say is its frustrating feeling like I spend so much time guessing what all the mechanics of it are, that I never get to a point where I'm sure what I'm evening practicing.

Contrast this with something like yiquan, where the whole mission of the discipline is not world peace or true budo, but the most expedient and concrete means of transmitting concepts to students. Any concepts that don't serve to explain a phenomenon are simply dumped. It is a neutral discipline whose goal is as much propagation and evolution of itself as cultivation of its practitioners.

If I had access to that kind of aikido, I'd be a happy man.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 08-02-2006 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 08-02-2006, 01:18 PM   #52
Mike Sigman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote:
As someone low down on the aikido totem pole, all I can say is its frustrating feeling like I spend so much time guessing what all the mechanics of it are, that I never get to a point where I'm sure what I'm evening practicing.

Contrast this with something like yiquan, where the whole mission of the discipline is not world peace or true budo, but the most expedient and concrete means of transmitting concepts to students.
Not to rain on your parade, Lee, but I've met a number of western Yiquan practitioners who, although they thought they'd been shown 'the good stuff', really didn't have skills that were very effective. So perhaps there's always a little of that "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence" stuff that is not necessarily true.

Granted, the idea of Yiquan was to take the primary body skills that were often "secret" and teach them "openly", but in practice I find that it's simply not so... there's a LOT of stuff apparently not shown to westerners and Chinese; same old story. Also, in reality, Yiquan has never proven to be anything special as a martial art in China, even though it's got a certain almost trendy following in the West. I've heard of too many times where challenges by Yiquan people didn't work out... there's more to fighting than just having unusual body power.

I'm all for body skills, but I think that they can be taught as well in an Aikido format as they can in many other martial formats. I.e., I'm not much into "styles" of martial arts because it appears that almost every Asian martial art is built around these anciently revered body skills. As these body skills become more known, THEN it'll be fun to see the style wars, I think.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-02-2006, 04:38 PM   #53
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote:
George, when you make the DVD, I'll buy it.

As someone low down on the aikido totem pole, all I can say is its frustrating feeling like I spend so much time guessing what all the mechanics of it are, that I never get to a point where I'm sure what I'm evening practicing.

Contrast this with something like yiquan, where the whole mission of the discipline is not world peace or true budo, but the most expedient and concrete means of transmitting concepts to students. Any concepts that don't serve to explain a phenomenon are simply dumped. It is a neutral discipline whose goal is as much propagation and evolution of itself as cultivation of its practitioners.

If I had access to that kind of aikido, I'd be a happy man.
Current Attempts

I will be doing a video in the Fall which will focus primarily on the various principles governing "entries". Should be out before Xmas.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 08-02-2006, 05:14 PM   #54
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I'm all for body skills, but I think that they can be taught as well in an Aikido format as they can in many other martial formats. I.e., I'm not much into "styles" of martial arts because it appears that almost every Asian martial art is built around these anciently revered body skills. As these body skills become more known, THEN it'll be fun to see the style wars, I think.
I would imagine, however, that some martial arts would emphasize certain elements over others. If that is true, then some martial arts may be a bit more 'related' (for lack of a better word I can think of) than others.

Maybe this isn't a fair question, what martial arts seem more 'related' to aikido, in your view? (aside from Daito-Ryu, of course)

My question is fueled by the perhaps incorrect assumption that the more the approach toward body skills overlap, the more potential benefit from cross-training there would be.
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Old 08-02-2006, 07:51 PM   #55
Mike Sigman
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Re: Small movements

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Nicholas Pagnucco wrote:
Maybe this isn't a fair question, what martial arts seem more 'related' to aikido, in your view? (aside from Daito-Ryu, of course)
I tend to look at martial arts as being composed of 2 general area:

1. Conditioning

2. Strategies and tactics (maybe you could simplify this by saying just "techniques", but that's not wholly true).


The first thing I think many westerners misunderstand is in the idea that different martial arts have different conditioning. Like there is maybe "hard Japanese", "hard Chinese", "Soft Japanese", "Soft Chinese", "medium hard Japanese", "internal Japanese", and so on. This is not really true. It's more accurate to understand that pretty much all the Asian martial arts use the ki and kokyu conditioning, even though some use it more sophisticatedly, some use a bit more muscle with it, etc. Once you understand that viewpoint and are able to spot and discard all the spurious m.a. practitioners who are really just using normal strength, shoulders, etc., you've come a long way. That's the key to understanding "conditioning" and realizing why a karateka like Ushiro Sensei actually has something valuable to contribute to Aikido, even thought the tactics and strategies and techniques of karate are often quite dissimilar.

Another misunderstanding is about the idea of "blending". A lot of people think that the idea of "blending, neutralizing, application", etc., is unique to Aikido. Or it's unique to Daito Ryu. Or it's unique to Taiji. It turns out that this particular idea is common to a lot of Asian martial arts. It's the idea of being "harmonious, rathern than conflicting" that is said in so many similar ways in so many arts. It is the natural arrangement that is signified by the Yin-Yang diagram... and how many Asian arts dissociate themselves from the Yin-Yang cosmology? None.

Xingyi, that art that so many of us thought was the ultimate King Kong art, uses blending extensively. So does Bagua. Much of Shaolin-style m.a.'s uses it, too. So many of our little conceits about the specialness of our arts evaporates as our perspective and exposure increase. Aikido is a unique martial art with distinguishing characteristics... but at the same time it is not "unique" in the sense that it doesn't share a lot of characteristics with many other arts in Asia.

So when you ask someone like me what arts seem similar to Aikido, I think many of the so-called "ju" (soft; using ki) arts are like Aikido, in that sense, to answer your question. Chinese shuai jiao is very similar in many aspects. However, the real problem for me is trying to think of an art that is radically dissimilar to Aikido. I just see too many similarities in the Asian arts that use the ki/kokyu skills to be able to think of differences; I see similarities. Sorry.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-02-2006, 08:30 PM   #56
Michael Young
 
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
That's the key to understanding "conditioning" and realizing why a karateka like Ushiro Sensei actually has something valuable to contribute to Aikido, even thought the tactics and strategies and techniques of karate are often quite dissimilar.
Hi Mr. Sigman,

So I take it that you liked what you saw from Ushiro Sensei? I have been following most of the discussions you are usually involved in here on Aikiweb, and was very interested in hearing your take on Ushiro Sensei. You don't seem to be shy about your opinions so I am looking forward to more of what you think Ushiro Sensei is doing.

I was fortunate enough to get my hands on him a few times during the week. What happened at his classes and the way he felt has really changed some of my perspectives regarding my training in Aikido. Stuff I thought I had a handle on (at least intellectually, though not in actual practice yet) is not at all what I thought was going on. The internal building of "kokyu" stuff now fascinates me more than ever, and I can see what you are talking about when you speak of the "deficiencies" of most Aikido training. There is a whole lot of internal stuff that is simply not being passed down in most places that is essential to understanding what we should be doing. In place of it a big emphasis on outward technique and movement is being stressed.

I'm still at a loss to understand what exactly I need to be doing to build internal "power/kokyu/strength", but I definitely can see that there is a whole other level to what I should start concentrating my studies on.
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Old 08-02-2006, 08:45 PM   #57
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So when you ask someone like me what arts seem similar to Aikido, I think many of the so-called "ju" (soft; using ki) arts are like Aikido, in that sense, to answer your question. Chinese shuai jiao is very similar in many aspects. However, the real problem for me is trying to think of an art that is radically dissimilar to Aikido. I just see too many similarities in the Asian arts that use the ki/kokyu skills to be able to think of differences; I see similarities. Sorry.

Yeah... I've started realizing in the last year how un-unique aikido is in many allegedly unique ways. A martial art that attempts to use pure muscle, stay directly in the path of an incoming attack, and tries to directly resist an opponent's inertia... well... I dont think thats much of a martial art, now is it?

I now know I probably will never know what makes aikido aikido until I start practicing another art to a degree.

In either case, thanks for the answer. At the very least, I have a better idea why it was the wrong question in the first place
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Old 08-02-2006, 09:05 PM   #58
David Yap
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Re: Small movements

Hi Mike,
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
What may have happened (my guess at the moment) is that O-Sensei restricted the "upper level" information and the worldwide Aikido organization grew quickly, leaving too few people who actually knew and leaving too many "teachers" who didn't know such information existed. Whether enough teachers make any whole-hearted attempt to recover this aspect of Aikido is something which is very interesting to watch!
To prove your guess, can we not compare the various lines of Sokaku Takeda's DRAJJ? I am sure some of these lines have evolved from ST just as M Ueshiba's aikido has. O Sensei was considered to be one of his best students (but not necessary the best of the best) and assuming that everyone of them has had learnt the same from ST, wouldn't some of these "high level" information be retained in some of these lines?

Any DRAJJ practitioners here care to share this with us?

Best training

David Y

PS - Thanks for the other great posts here.
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Old 08-02-2006, 09:42 PM   #59
David Yap
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Re: Small movements

Hi Lee,
Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote:
The deeper I am getting into yiquan the more it is seeming like it is a totally different way of doing things than what might be useful for "internal" aikido. To do it as a supplement to aikido might be an injustice to yiquan.
Versus..
Quote:
This is an exploration of the body's capability for generating force/movement at a particular example stopped point in movement ("non-movement"). To me, this just seems like something that is applicable to all athletics, not really aikido specifically, so YMMV.
=confused

For most of us (apologies for assuming), at a higher level of training it is the ki/kokyu aspect of the art that we hope to master. Science helps when the Art (or the teachers) no longer show.

Quote:
However, if you hold a palm out, and then press your fist/arm against your palm as hard as you can, the palm not letting your other arm move at all, you can generate the same amount of force, but now it has direction. If you suddenly pull your palm away, your fist will fly forward.
I have seen some Kyokushin guys breaking baseball bats with their fists using this concept - awesome power. Mas Oyama and most of his senior shihan also practiced Taikiken (aka Dachengquan/Yiquan). Injustice to Yichuan? BTW, Mas Oyama had studied DRAJJ too.

The wonder of x-training..

Regards

David Y
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Old 08-02-2006, 10:04 PM   #60
Mike Sigman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Michael Young wrote:
So I take it that you liked what you saw from Ushiro Sensei? I have been following most of the discussions you are usually involved in here on Aikiweb, and was very interested in hearing your take on Ushiro Sensei. You don't seem to be shy about your opinions so I am looking forward to more of what you think Ushiro Sensei is doing.
Hi Michael:

I think Ushiro Sensei was doing just what I've described for the past year and a half. As I said, I'm positive that some of this stuff is getting a push; people should thank Ikeda Sensei for stepping up and making an issue of it... Ikeda's got a LOT of brass for doing that and he deserves a lot of respect for making it an issue. The question is whether many of the westerners will take the time to go after the golden ring after it's been pointed out to them so plainly.

Sorry about the shyness. I'm trying to get over it.
Quote:
I was fortunate enough to get my hands on him a few times during the week. What happened at his classes and the way he felt has really changed some of my perspectives regarding my training in Aikido. Stuff I thought I had a handle on (at least intellectually, though not in actual practice yet) is not at all what I thought was going on. The internal building of "kokyu" stuff now fascinates me more than ever, and I can see what you are talking about when you speak of the "deficiencies" of most Aikido training. There is a whole lot of internal stuff that is simply not being passed down in most places that is essential to understanding what we should be doing. In place of it a big emphasis on outward technique and movement is being stressed.
Good; kudos to you. You need to realize the not everyone else is going to see it or be motivated enough to chase it down. Think of Ueshiba's post-war Uchi-deshi's.... some (like Tohei, Abe, and others) chased it down; others were content where they were.
Quote:
I'm still at a loss to understand what exactly I need to be doing to build internal "power/kokyu/strength", but I definitely can see that there is a whole other level to what I should start concentrating my studies on.
This is my comment about Ushiro's teaching. While it was good and well-intentioned and *way* beyond anything I've ever heard of a traditional Japanese teacher doing, it's still not explicative enough (IMO) so that people actually get it, even at the basic level.

So my questions have been things like "what to do about it", "should anything really be done at all or should Aikido just accept the fact that a few people in Aikido have it and the rest will never be shown", and so on. I think it's a good discussion. Adding to the fun of the discussion is that a large number of the Aikido community don't really understand what this stuff is and therefore can't see that there's a problem to do with the stuff they don't know about. It's an interesting predicament, indeed, ain't it?

In terms of *how* to start doing it, I showed a reasonable thumbnail sketch of *my opinion* of a viable approach to George Ledyard and Rich Moore. They may or may not agree with my approach as viable, but the idea of discussing, show-and-tell, etc., is probably the first important step (after deciding whether it's important enough to do something about or not).

I would be glad to try to tell you how to start in what I think is an effective way, but honestly... it really needs a hands-on to start, get a common vocabulary, etc.

All the Best.

Mike
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Old 08-02-2006, 10:06 PM   #61
Mike Sigman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
To prove your guess, can we not compare the various lines of Sokaku Takeda's DRAJJ? I am sure some of these lines have evolved from ST just as M Ueshiba's aikido has. O Sensei was considered to be one of his best students (but not necessary the best of the best) and assuming that everyone of them has had learnt the same from ST, wouldn't some of these "high level" information be retained in some of these lines?
I think some of it IS retained. It's just not freely shown. Ellis Amdur has pointed that out in some posts of his, BTW.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-02-2006, 10:16 PM   #62
Lee Salzman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
=confused
Me too, and that's the point. What I am learning in yiquan seems related to some of the stuff that might be useful for aikido, but not necessarily what one would apply to aikido. I'm pretty much learning how to generate a lot of force and how to transition it with relaxation. While I'm sure you could use that in aikido, I'm not sure it's what I was looking for when I started learning yiquan or what Mike is really talking about.
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Old 08-03-2006, 07:28 AM   #63
Mike Sigman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote:
Me too, and that's the point. What I am learning in yiquan seems related to some of the stuff that might be useful for aikido, but not necessarily what one would apply to aikido. I'm pretty much learning how to generate a lot of force and how to transition it with relaxation. While I'm sure you could use that in aikido, I'm not sure it's what I was looking for when I started learning yiquan or what Mike is really talking about.
Lee, without seeing what you're doing and without knowing what your perception of "Aikido" is (it varies from person to person, as you can spot by reading this list), I'm not sure what to tell you.

The "internal strength" stuff has some fixed categories. For simplicity, let's just say we're looking at the kokyu and ki stuff. Yiquan is kokyu and ki stuff. Ushiro's karate is kokyu and ki stuff (even though it looks to some people like he's doing something entirely different). I.e., you can learn kokyu and ki stuff from someone really knowledgeable in Yiquan, karate, Aikido, and a number of other arts. *HOW* you use that kokyu and ki stuff depends on the art and how well you conform to that usage in the art.

"Sanchin" was Ushiro's preferred vehicle to teach kokyu and ki things. "Standing exercises" in Yiquan is the basis for starting internal strength-ki-and-kokyu... then they move on to moving with that power in Shr li, Mocabu, and Fa li. But at heart, it's all the same stuff.

Granted, in Aikido you have to have a teacher who knows how to do these things and there is a dearth of English-speaking teachers out there, but it's beginning to happen. Heck, you may wind up being on that wave of upcoming teachers who will teach this stuff to the next generation.... certainly it's unavoidably coming and no one will survive trying pretend that they don't need to know that stuff. So be positive... you're on the right track.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-03-2006, 07:45 AM   #64
SeiserL
 
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Re: Small movements

IMHO, (and I am sure Phong Sensei would agree), that first training is about the science or craft of technical profieciency, without foundation there really is no art.

Also, since Phong Sensei has rank in several other arts, he would not say that Aikido is exclusive in its concepts, principles, strategies, or even application. Yet it appears to be his favorite.

It may be more about the packaging. Too often we sort fro differences instead of similiarities or sameness. IMHO, both are important.

I have personally trained with Ushiro Sensei at all three Aiki-Expos. Always excellent instruction, insight, and inspiration. We got into a flowing/rolling hands moment and he was always grounded, in front of me, and I didn't feel him move. Most excellent.

Agreed, Ikeda Sensei is always excellent and is well worth attendence at his seminar. I have attended many over the years. He does show, explain, and give exercise in the "how" of the art.

Large movements or small movements, the principles can remain constant, the application depends on the context.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:11 AM   #65
Mike Sigman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO, (and I am sure Phong Sensei would agree), that first training is about the science or craft of technical profieciency, without foundation there really is no art.
Hi Lynn:

It would help the discussion a lot of you were able to give us some specifics of the body mechanics Phong Sensei uses. As it is, he could be using "body mechanics" but they may be body mechanics unrelated to the more or less common discussion.

I wish you had been at the summer camp. As George mentioned, I can tell pretty much by a touch who is doing what within their body and it would have been interesting to see what sort of body mechanics you're using. Then I could judge your remarks more accurately. And overriding all other thoughts when I say things like this is the constant awareness that it is easy to mislead people so that they go through their whole Aikido, Taiji, Xingyi, karate, whatever, career learning the wrong body mechanics ... therefore not getting the full return for their time and other investments. It's one of the reasons I ask such serious (sometimes blunt) questions to someone who publicly advertises that he is a "teacher"... if he/she advertises that he/she knows enough to teach, then public questions should be expected, to some extent.

In terms of being a student who is led for years down a road that is not really quite the correct road... it happens a lot. I happen to have seen a lot of people after the realization hits them that the teacher they gave so much to didn't really know what he was doing (even though he thought he did). Often it's that concern for the students (because I've been one and I've been on the receiving end of some real time-wasters who were playing a role as best they could but it was no where near good enough) that is always just below the surface of my mind.
Quote:
I have personally trained with Ushiro Sensei at all three Aiki-Expos. Always excellent instruction, insight, and inspiration. We got into a flowing/rolling hands moment and he was always grounded, in front of me, and I didn't feel him move. Most excellent.
Fine.... but the question about Ushiro is not whether he knew kokyu... he does, as even a casual observer can see... or whether he's "grounded" (if he can use kokyu, of course he's grounded). The question is within a discussion about whether the manner in which he teaches will convey do-able and useable kokyu/ki skills to most of the Aikido students. If not, why? And so on. A discussion like that, full of specifics instead of vagaries, is bound to be helpful. Wouldn't you agree?
Quote:
Agreed, Ikeda Sensei is always excellent and is well worth attendence at his seminar. I have attended many over the years. He does show, explain, and give exercise in the "how" of the art.
Well, bear in mind that I met Ikeda many years ago in the early 1980's and I've seen him a number of times during that interim. Ushiro made the scene at the Aiki Expo last year and Ikeda was very interested in what Ushiro was teaching and later invited Ushiro to teach in Boulder and then at this summer camp.

Two things very unusual have been happening and they have my interest. First of all, Ushiro Sensei, regardless of exactly how he teaches it or how fully he teaches it, is doing something in the same league as Akuzawa Sensei is doing.... he's actually teaching people kokyu things instead of just vaguely and cryptically referring to them. The other thing, and almost a bigger thing, is that Ikeda Sensei is basically saying "hey, I don't really know how to do that to that level and I want to learn and I want my students to learn". There should be some sort of national award to Ikeda for doing that. He has stood up in a way that makes me look at him and think that even though I think he's a great guy, I seriously understimated him, all these years.

But think about it. It's such a big deal that a Japanese-trained sensei is doing something unheard of about it. In the Aikido community I get the feeling that a *few* people are paying close attention and get the hint; most others are making vague acknowledgements and trying to indicate that they too already know this stuff, yada, yada, yada. Fine, if that's their personal attitude.... but thinking back to the students that I tend to focus on, how many students have been taught stuff that lacked the ki/kokyu skills and what does that do for them and for Aikido? There are a lot of things worth thinking about (and I'm not singling you out, Lynn... I'm more musing out loud).
Quote:
Large movements or small movements, the principles can remain constant,,,,
OK, but what are the "principles"? If I have my arms in front of me like I'm holding a sack of groceries in shape, but with no weight in them..... what are the "principles" that I would use to lift them so the arms come up to shoulder height? What are the specific mechanics?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-06-2006, 05:58 AM   #66
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I can tell pretty much by a touch who is doing what within their body and it would have been interesting to see what sort of body mechanics you're using.
That's interesting. I definitely don't have that level of sensitivity, but would you mind explaining what you sense/feel with that touch?
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Old 08-06-2006, 07:45 AM   #67
Mike Sigman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
That's interesting. I definitely don't have that level of sensitivity, but would you mind explaining what you sense/feel with that touch?
I feel whether someone's power is based on use of the ground or local muscle, I feel where areas are tense in the body, I can tell their general tonus. I can feel their nearest "empty spots" where they have no balance. It's part of "listening jin", but that in itself is an offshoot of the basic jin/kokyu development. There is only one jin.

Regards,

Mike
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