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Old 01-31-2011, 07:39 PM   #326
chillzATL
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Anyway, I'm going to leave this thread and mind my own bussiness but I canīt help to think there is something fishy that makes the people who are promoting IP/IS avoid their skills being subjected to scientifical analysis while at the same time they have no problem in writing thousands of posts, for years, in various websites and forums. There is an insane amount of hours invested in promoting, discussing, debating, etc. IS/IP training and, as result: a handful of middle-aged middle-class, most of them hobbyist, martial arts practitioneers.

If you have the method to develop great balance, strenght that doesn't fade with age, coordination, psycho-physical integration, etc. and you're not thinking in the quality of life of senior citizens, victims of muscular degenerative diseases, manual workers, sports practitioneers approaching the end of their careers... so you are not knocking the doors of universities, hospitals, sientific societies, niosh and the like for getting them interested because your method works and you can prove it instead of spending your time and efforts in the intardnets then you are a very strange person.

IMO, of course.
Were it not for the internet, most of us would never have come by this information. It's not hiding here, this is the grass roots of it trying to get out. It's never been easy to come by, why do you think Ueshiba dedicated his life to it like he did and wasn't more forthcoming, with his hundreds ,maybe thousands of students, about how to REALLY get it?
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:56 PM   #327
bob_stra
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Demetrio,
I did just that a few years ago. I was not surprised that none...NONE...of those studies even touched on IP.
You might like these better, esp the third one

Quote:
Kinematic and electromyographic analysis of the push movement in tai chi

http://bjsportmed.com/cgi/content/abstract/37/4/339

Conclusion: The eccentric muscle contraction of the lower limbs in the push movement of tai chi may help to strengthen the muscles.
Quote:
ELECTROMYOGRAPHIC ANALYSIS OF TAI CHI

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/articl...06A0864145.php

Abstract;The purpose of this study was to analyse electromyographic characteristics of Tai Chi. The subjects, six healthy men, performed; (1) the maximum voluntary contraction (MVC) of each tested muscle; (2) three forms in 24-style Tai Chi; (3) on a bicycle ergometer (100 w) and jogging (120m/s). For each muscle, the maximum integrated EMG for one second was computed and standardized by MVC(%MVC). The results were as follows: (1) High muscle activity was observed during Tai Chi. In five muscles, the %MVC exceeded 60%. (2) In the rectus femoris m., the %MVC of Tai Chi was 6.8 times that of the bicycle ergometer and 10.3 times that of jogging (p<0.01). In a similar way, in the tibialis anterior m., the %MVC was 7.1 and 4.8 times (p<0.01), and in the rectus abdominis m., the %MVC was 6.3 and 4.9 times (p<0.01). We conclude that Tai Chi might be useful as an exercise in muscle strength training. (author abst.)
Quote:
Biomechanical Analysis of the Attack and Defense Techniques in Tai Chi Push Hands

http://ethesys.lib.ncku.edu.tw/ETD-d...0724108-173854

Tai Chi (or Tai Chi Chuan, Taijiquan) is a kind of physical exercise developed from traditional Chinese martial arts. Tai Chi exercise is suitable for the elderly because it has been proven to be effective in preserving health and decreasing the risk of falling. Biomechanical analyses of the lower limbs and pushing movements of Tai Chi forms have shown the characteristics of Tai Chi exercise including lower center of gravity (COG), whole body coordination, conforming to kinetic chain, and larger range of motion. To date, biomechanical researches of Tai Chi lack three-dimension motion analysis, ground reaction force measurement on each foot, and activation patterns of major muscle groups. In addition, although Push Hands are more advanced movements, no biomechanical analyses of interactive Push Hands have been found.

To analyze the kinematic, kinetic and electromyographic characteristics of Tai Chi Push Hands, an experienced master was asked to defend and attack against two other subjects for three trials. Movements were videotaped and digitized using a motion analysis system with electromyography and two force plates.

The results indicate that when the master encountered pushing forces from the opponents, his COG moved downward and toward the rear foot to defend. During normal pushing, the master used his lumbar and upper limbs muscle to push, but could not move the opponents. In Tai Chi pushing, the master’s rear rectus femoris was highly activated during the whole movement process, but the upper limbs were only activated at the instant of pushing over the opponent. Although the vertical and horizontal force components of the rear foot in Tai Chi pushing were lower than those in normal pushing, the master could push over the opponent by Tai Chi pushing. In the evading with pushing technique, because the master first received the pushing force from the opponent, and then contracted his abdomen with twisting his waist to push over the opponent. The master’s erector spinae activation was higher than those in the upper limbs. Moreover, in this technique the ground reaction force on the rear foot is higher than that in Tai Chi pushing because the master received an additional pushing force from the opponent.

Regardless of the variety in Push Hands skills including resisting, pushing, or the evading with pushing techniques, they are conformed to the martial arts classics: “root on the feet, create force from the legs, be controlled by the lumbar, and finally appear in the fingers.” Because well experienced Tai Chi masters are rarely seen, the suggested future work is to recruit more non- and slightly experienced subjects for biomechanical comparison and statistical analysis. It is expected that the mechanisms for balance maintenance and falls prevention can be found, which will be valuable information for the elderly and Tai Chi novices.

Last edited by bob_stra : 01-31-2011 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:36 PM   #328
phitruong
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Mike Sigman brought up some interesting stuff. So even among the those who are "in the know" there are arguments about what IP is. Why is there a difference of opinion? Are the different camps talking about drastically different skill sets, or are they simply talking about minor details. When Mike, Ark and Dan all get together can't we see the difference's and hash out what is the same?
nope. they didn't argued about what IP/IS is. they argued about the application of and the degree of mastery and teaching/learning approaches to IS and aiki.

just say that these guys are kinda eccentric. just accept they are as they are and everything would be fine.
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:54 PM   #329
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
)(snip)Anyway, I'm going to leave this thread and mind my own bussiness but I canīt help to think there is something fishy that makes the people who are promoting IP/IS avoid their skills being subjected to scientifical analysis while at the same time they have no problem in writing thousands of posts, for years, in various websites and forums. There is an insane amount of hours invested in promoting, discussing, debating, etc. IS/IP training and, as result: a handful of middle-aged middle-class, most of them hobbyist, martial arts practitioneers.

If you have the method to develop great balance, strenght that doesn't fade with age, coordination, psycho-physical integration, etc. and you're not thinking in the quality of life of senior citizens, victims of muscular degenerative diseases, manual workers, sports practitioneers approaching the end of their careers... so you are not knocking the doors of universities, hospitals, sientific societies, niosh and the like for getting them interested because your method works and you can prove it instead of spending your time and efforts in the intardnets then you are a very strange person.

IMO, of course.
Demetrio,
I don't believe that IP and its methods, particularly as they relate to martial arts and martial application, are a panacea for humankind's ills. They are a skill set that has various uses and benefits, but they are not a magic pill any more than being physically fit and eating a balanced and nutritious diet are "magic" for keeping a person healthy. In other words, there is no compelling reason to go around knocking on doors to try to force this on the health care industry. They'd think we're nuts. And they'd be right.

Besides, no one here invented IP or aiki. The West is just starting to get a grasp of what China's medical adepts and martial adepts have known for over a millenium, and their Japanese counterparts picked up on somewhat later. Millions of people practice tai chi for their health and wellbeing, and the Chinese have had qigong practices for just that purpose, so it's nothing new. At least, not there. What more could anyone here contribute, except to show aikido people how to put aiki back into their art?

I do accept that it is a little crazy that some folks spend so much time on any personal interest or hobby. Pursuit of art is inherently selfish. But, to be frank, people have a right to their hobbies and passions, especially if they do other good works that do contribute to the welfare of humanity. We all need a healthy outlet, no?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 01-31-2011 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:21 AM   #330
kewms
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
This sounds like the field of athletics again.

Mike Sigman brought up some interesting stuff. So even among the those who are "in the know" there are arguments about what IP is. Why is there a difference of opinion? Are the different camps talking about drastically different skill sets, or are they simply talking about minor details. When Mike, Ark and Dan all get together can't we see the difference's and hash out what is the same?

I would like to ask Mike, Ark, and Dan how do you guys feel to each other?
In some cases, I suspect people are describing different parts of the elephant. In others, there's a true difference in skill level and understanding. In still others, there are simply different teaching metaphors being used to describe the same thing.

Katherine
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:04 AM   #331
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Hi chris, and greetings, I have not read all the posts in this thread, sio I appologise for any repeated opponion. But you ask a simple question, what can a "IP martial artist do, that a modern athlete cannot do" end quote. Here is my response from an Aikido perspective.

1 A modern athelete say a boxer, cannot use non resistance as an effective means to protect himself and the attacker from harm. The element of competion, and basically block with strength hit with strength to affect the desired result. AIkido is the Art of non resistance.

2 Aikido, composes of an element of total awareness of there surroundings, and whats happening internally at the same time. I believe modern athletics do not do this, lets take the high jump, you can see that the athlete is totally focused on one goal only "the bar", I do admit here breath control is very important, but lacking in total awreness.

3 Aikido trains the "human spirit" of compassion without losing your centre self. modern athletes trains the spirit of winning at all costs, the idea here is Aikido is victorious over competion because it is not concerned winning.

4 Aikido techniques themselves are designed to first do no harm, whilst say MMA, is the exact opposite of this theory. Aikido teaches to move in harmony with our opponents attack and more often than not there breathing too.
MMA is directly opposite to this, first put the person down with as much force possible to do this they have to injure thiere attacker as much as possible

5 A major part of the founders Aikido was his spiritual connection. If you have read homma sensei reflections on M saito sensei final days, you can easily see how Aikido helped to face his final challenge with poise, power, and as it appears without fear.
I believe modern sports do not have a spiritual element at all because it is too concerned with competion, and has no room to prepare us for this side of our elderly life.

These are just a few of my thoughts I`m sure there are others, and better people will be able to use better language to describe the differences.

In Budo

Andy B
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:14 AM   #332
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Demetrio,
I don't believe that IP and its methods, particularly as they relate to martial arts and martial application, are a panacea for humankind's ills. ...
You missed this?

"I'm going to leave this thread and mind my own bussiness (sic)"

I've got better things to do.

@ Josh,
Quote:
Demetrio, What's your theory so far?
My theory (mostly especulation) is mine. Move along, there's nothing to see here. Thanks.

@ Jason,
Quote:
why do you think Ueshiba dedicated his life to it like he did and wasn't more forthcoming, with his hundreds ,maybe thousands of students, about how to REALLY get it?
He was all the forthcoming he could be considering his circunstances.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:14 AM   #333
Mike Sigman
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
In some cases, I suspect people are describing different parts of the elephant. In others, there's a true difference in skill level and understanding. In still others, there are simply different teaching metaphors being used to describe the same thing.
The problem is that the full spectrum of knowledge/skills within the "internal strength" topic is broader that a lot of people realize. It's like climbing a large tree with an inner-ear disorder; very easy to mistakenly go out onto a branch and think that you're near the top of the tree because you don't see much in front of you.

The great hindrance to progress is going to be, as usual, ego and pecking order. The are always a few nice, sincere, interested-in-the-topic people who will progress and there will be a number of people who can only see the issue of internal-strength as an aside which they can only view in terms of "how would this affect my image if I stoop to acknowledging that there is something important I truly don't know". I.e., the usual politics and personality enters into the discussion. But that's life.

Chris (Hein), I can appreciate your perspective, but I think that it's probably wisest to go see someone truly knowledgeable in i.s. skills in order to get a feel for the various potentials and then go from there. Perhaps if you visited to see Chen Xiaowang, Chen Youze, Chen Qingzhou, etc., people who tend to visit California yearly, you could get a feel for what a real expert does and then extrapolate back into Aikido. The present conversation seems to be based on the fact that you haven't seen or felt what is being talked about (not an unusual position), but IMO the truly curious would just go look and see first, and then perhaps argue that they didn't see anything unusual (a valid observation, perhaps, but only after a physical viewing).

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:37 AM   #334
stan baker
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Hi Chris

I suggest that you see Dan he is more powerful then the taiji guys and can explain in detail what is going on. But you should experience the taiji guys and anybody else if have the chance, over the past twenty years that is what I have done and continue to do.

stan
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Old 02-01-2011, 08:16 AM   #335
DH
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Uhm...Stan, that is not a judgement I am interested in keeping up with, or supporting. This isn't the wild west with the quickest draw. Let's let each stand ...on their own.
Dan
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:28 AM   #336
Jaon Deatherage
 
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Internal is something I'll be using when I'm 80...long after the athletics have been left behind...
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:43 AM   #337
stan baker
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

The main point I am trying to make is that Dan is actually teaching and explaining this material in detail. I don't think the chinese and japanese are doing that great.

stan
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:09 AM   #338
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You missed this?

"I'm going to leave this thread and mind my own bussiness (sic)"

I've got better things to do.
Apparently, not until after he'd checked the thread at least one more time...
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:14 AM   #339
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

This kind of reflects on what I would call traditional Aikido training, and not IP, but I think there are some interesting things in here.

Quote:
Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
Hi chris, and greetings, I have not read all the posts in this thread, sio I appologise for any repeated opponion. But you ask a simple question, what can a "IP martial artist do, that a modern athlete cannot do" end quote. Here is my response from an Aikido perspective.

1 A modern athelete say a boxer, cannot use non resistance as an effective means to protect himself and the attacker from harm. The element of competion, and basically block with strength hit with strength to affect the desired result. AIkido is the Art of non resistance.
This is a very slippery slope. I've been dan ranked in Aikido for about 10 years now. I've fought competitively, I've fought in the street, and I've had a few more serious altercations as well. While it is true, if you are much more skilled than your attacker, you can sometimes resolve the matter without anyone getting really hurt. It is unlikely that this will be the case if they are very aggressive and even come close to approaching your skill level.

If we are only talking about brief exchanges, and not a fight as a whole, then even competitive fighters show the use of nonresistance during a fight. Watch a Bjj match, you will see people going with the force of their opponent the whole match.

Quote:
2 Aikido, composes of an element of total awareness of there surroundings, and whats happening internally at the same time. I believe modern athletics do not do this, lets take the high jump, you can see that the athlete is totally focused on one goal only "the bar", I do admit here breath control is very important, but lacking in total awreness.
While there are sports the require focused attention, there are also sports the require an open and aware mind. Take NFL quarterbacks for example. A quarterback must watch the whole field, find and open receiver, dodge incoming attackers, and focus on throwing the ball to a moving target, often tens of yards away; now that's awareness!

Quote:
3 Aikido trains the "human spirit" of compassion without losing your centre self. modern athletes trains the spirit of winning at all costs, the idea here is Aikido is victorious over competion because it is not concerned winning.
While I agree, that at the high end of competition there is a real premium put on winning, there is much beyond this. My experience training with some serious athletes has made me respect competitive athletics as I never had before. I see that competition often fosters humility, honest, directness, and strength of character. This is because there is truth in competition. One must learn to accept this truth at the end of the competition, win or lose. I think, with the right coaches, modern athletics can be a true path to enlightenment.

Quote:
4 Aikido techniques themselves are designed to first do no harm, whilst say MMA, is the exact opposite of this theory. Aikido teaches to move in harmony with our opponents attack and more often than not there breathing too.
MMA is directly opposite to this, first put the person down with as much force possible to do this they have to injure thiere attacker as much as possible
This is a point I care not to argue at this point.

Quote:
5 A major part of the founders Aikido was his spiritual connection. If you have read homma sensei reflections on M saito sensei final days, you can easily see how Aikido helped to face his final challenge with poise, power, and as it appears without fear.
I believe modern sports do not have a spiritual element at all because it is too concerned with competion, and has no room to prepare us for this side of our elderly life.
The spirit is strongly enforced in athletics training. See 3.

Quote:
These are just a few of my thoughts I`m sure there are others, and better people will be able to use better language to describe the differences.

In Budo

Andy B
Thanks for your thoughts, time and consideration.

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Jason Deatherage wrote: View Post
Internal is something I'll be using when I'm 80...long after the athletics have been left behind...
Tell that to Jack Lalanne (RIP).

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Old 02-01-2011, 11:40 AM   #340
kewms
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Tell that to Jack Lalanne (RIP).
You keep mentioning him... while it is true that people who stay active can maintain a high degree of athleticism for a long time, it is *not* true that those people can continue to improve. Whatever Jack Lalanne could do at 80, I guarantee it was less than he could do at 30 or 40.

Katherine
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:43 PM   #341
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
You keep mentioning him... while it is true that people who stay active can maintain a high degree of athleticism for a long time, it is *not* true that those people can continue to improve. Whatever Jack Lalanne could do at 80, I guarantee it was less than he could do at 30 or 40.

Katherine
And Jack (RIP) at 30, 40 or 80 could not do what Sagawa Yukiyoshi (RIP) could do at 80. Different skill sets.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:34 PM   #342
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Different skill sets.
As has been noted in a number of previous posts on this thread. Sorry for the redundancy.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:49 PM   #343
JangChoe
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
And Jack (RIP) at 30, 40 or 80 could not do what Sagawa Yukiyoshi (RIP) could do at 80. Different skill sets.
Yep and Sagawa probably couldn't do anything Jack did in his 80's. Like you said different skill sets and results.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:59 PM   #344
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Thomas Campbell wrote:
Different skill sets.


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Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
As has been noted in a number of previous posts on this thread. Sorry for the redundancy.
IMO, it's still relevant to mention this because Sagawa provides a good illustration of the difference between those skill sets: It was noted (by Kimura, I think) that Sagawa, in his 80s and 90s, was too weak to open a container of juice -- a conventional use of muscle strength; yet, he was able to exhibit phenomenal IP and aiki, and to continue his extensive, daily solo training.
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:08 PM   #345
lbb
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

This whole thread is starting to sound like that stupid joke about being able to play the piano after surgery.
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:22 PM   #346
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
This whole thread is starting to sound like that stupid joke about being able to play the piano after surgery.
I don't think I've heard that particular joke . . .
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:28 PM   #347
graham christian
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

What about introducing IP to Aikido is like pouring a cup of oil into a sea of water?
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:56 PM   #348
Mike Sigman
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
IMO, it's still relevant to mention this because Sagawa provides a good illustration of the difference between those skill sets: It was noted (by Kimura, I think) that Sagawa, in his 80s and 90s, was too weak to open a container of juice -- a conventional use of muscle strength; yet, he was able to exhibit phenomenal IP and aiki, and to continue his extensive, daily solo training.
Huh? That doesn't make any sense. You could open the container of juice with normal strength *and* you could open it internal strength. Unless, of course, Sagawa really didn't have full internal strength and only specialized in some aspects of it. Nice story, but it doesn't ring true. "Internal strength" is still strength, but it is strength that is derived as 'other than muscle'.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:35 PM   #349
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
I don't think I've heard that particular joke . . .
Guy breaks his arm, doctor sets it. Guy asks doctor, "Will I be able to play the piano?" Doctor: "Of course! Beautifully!" Guy: "Great! I've never played before."
(badaBOOM).

Mike,
Perhaps it's not the best illustrative anecdote, particularly since we don't know whether it was a screw-cap or a pop top.
Maybe the weakness Kimura described was due to partial paralysis from the stroke -- who knows. I'd think, though, that if Sagawa could open a container of juice by any means, he would have, whether "internally" or "externally." Can't picture him having to ask someone to do it for him. His training during that period seemed like a polar opposite to his physical demeanor.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 02-01-2011 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:41 PM   #350
Mike Sigman
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Mike,
Perhaps it's not the best illustrative anecdote, particularly since we don't know whether it was a screw-cap or a pop top.
Maybe the weakness Kimura described was due to partial paralysis from the stroke -- who knows. I'd think, though, that if Sagawa could open a container of juice by any means, he would have, whether "internally" or "externally." Can't picture him having to ask someone to do it for him.
Could be Kimura was telling a "story". There are a number of stories just like that about Ueshiba, Cheng Man Ching, and many others, so probably it's de rigeur, just to prove that you've got the "True Stuff" (tm), to have a story that shows that you're so weak physically that you can't dress yourself but your 'power' still allows you to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

Mike Sigman
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