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Old 12-10-2007, 06:11 PM   #126
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Well, interesting you bring up that principle, that was what I was talking to my friend about when I was looking for quotes. I think that what OSensei meant by "nonresistance" is pretty generally misunderstood by Western Aikido students. Here's an excerpt from the email I mentioned above, it relates both to the idea of aikido being a path of least resistance and what nonresistance actually meant in the context of OSensei's Aikido.

And before anyone starts talking about 'post-war' mindsets and whatnot, the interview was published in 1957...
Well, I hate to get into this again, but it does bring up the fact that almost no one in Aikido is developing skill like this now. As Dan and Mike have pointed out, there is a conditioning aspect to this that Aikido folks do not seem to be doing any more.

Having been at the Akuzawa seminar with you, it was interesting to see the results of doing that conditioning. You can see this in Systema as well. Akuzawa was quite relaxed at all times because he had both correct body alignment and had done the "internal" conditioning required to give his body structure without using muscle tension.

It is clear that when O-Sensei said absolute non-resistance, he meant a completely relaxed mind that didn't "contend" and a body that had no resistive tension. As Dan has pointed out, whenever O-Sensei wanted to show off his art, he would more often than not, show the power of this relaxation by neutralizing the conventional power of the person he was trying to impress. Then he might end by redirecting the energy and a throw would result.

You see the same thing in the Systema... the conditioning regimen leads to an incredibly strong structure. People are fooled by the fluid movement and what they see as "non-resistance" but at the heart of what they do is an internal power that allows that lack of tension.

It is a good thing that the Aikido community is now getting access to some of this training. It makes me hopeful that things will get better as long as people do not fall into the trap of thinking that not being movable and not getting thrown is the "point" of the training. That would surely wreck Aikido just as fast as having a bunch of folks who think aiki is just a way to avoid power through movement.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 12-10-2007, 08:41 PM   #127
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
It is a good thing that the Aikido community is now getting access to some of this training. It makes me hopeful that things will get better as long as people do not fall into the trap of thinking that not being movable and not getting thrown is the "point" of the training. That would surely wreck Aikido just as fast as having a bunch of folks who think aiki is just a way to avoid power through movement.
Totally agree, it's easy to become obsessed with the tools as if they were the end result. The push out, and other 'tests' like aiki-age/kokyu-ho are all ways of guaging our process in a very controlled environment. For most of us, that all falls away when we try to apply it, particularly with an uke that doesn't feel like cooperating.

You comments also echo something I was saying here.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-10-2007, 10:34 PM   #128
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
You must work some wicked hours Larry! I've been to work and back several times already, not to mention a couple parties! Or are you demonstrating the aiki of avoidance that I've been reading about in this thread?

(that was meant to be light hearted by the way, not mean spirited, sometimes my amazing wit is misinterpreted on teh interw3bs)
Haha - very funny....

I've lost interest in that aspect of the discussion, because it just seems to end up going nowhere I think - but I am always interested in "non-resistance...." my whole style of Aikido is based on what we call "kinesthetic invisibility" where uke ideally cannot feel anything from nage. It's quite achievable, but it's a different internal (and external) process than how the Systema guys do things, although the result sometimes looks a little similar.

Larry Novick
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Old 12-11-2007, 07:09 AM   #129
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

George and Chris wrote better than I could have done.

Just another "I agree" post.
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:04 AM   #130
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Principle: Masakatsu Agatsu -- self-victory is true victory.
Thanks for your comments Keith. I was curious what you thought about the definition of "Masakatsu Agatsu" that OSensei offers in that same interview I quoted earlier:

Quote:
O Sensei: The essential points become masakatsu, agatsu, and katsuhayai. As I said previously , masakatsu means "correct victory" and agatsu means "to win in accordance with the heavenly mission given to you." Katsuhayai means "the state of mind of rapid victory".
If I read that correctly, Masagatsu Agatsu could be translated as "Correct victory in accordance with the heavenly mission" rather than simply "victory over the self". Or, perhaps it is an addendum, that victory over the self doesn't really mean to suppress our baser instincts, but to give ones ego over to the divine teachings of Aikido irregardless of our own inclination? This is more like a spiritual take on the traditional ryu-ha paradigm (where the ego or personality of the member is gradually infused with the character and principles of the ryu-ha).

Any thoughts?

Chris Moses
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:55 AM   #131
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Totally agree, it's easy to become obsessed with the tools as if they were the end result. The push out, and other 'tests' like aiki-age/kokyu-ho are all ways of guaging our process in a very controlled environment. For most of us, that all falls away when we try to apply it, particularly with an uke that doesn't feel like cooperating.

You comments also echo something I was saying here.
A excellent exchange between you and George Thanks!

Shoji Nishio's only book "Yurusu Budo" explains most of this clearly...The wrist grabbing branch of Hombu Aikido and the Atemi branch of Hombu....so to speak...He lamented the fact the the 'Wrist Grabbers" were diluting the art to the point where it looks like a dance and without a Strong Martial Base Aikido the Martial Art of O'Sensei would eventually disappear.

It's up to us to ensure that does not happen.

William Hazen
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:57 AM   #132
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Some thoughts by Peter Goldsbury on that phrase...

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...sakatsu&page=2

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 12-11-2007, 11:06 AM   #133
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Lol. When I saw WWMD I instantly thought "What Weapon of Mass Destruction."

Oh well...

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:31 PM   #134
Joseph Madden
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

I think what may have happened to Roman may have nothing or everything to do with aiki or what Gavin de Becker refers to as "The Gift of Fear"(an excellent read if you get the chance).Human beings, like most animal life forms, are programmed with a flight or fight response mechanism. For most people, this ability, as we have evolved, has become not dormant as many believe, but merely ignored. The feeling you get in the pit of your stomach is usually trying to tell you something. As martial artists it is our job to cultivate this feeling (call it heijoshin, mushin, fudoshin, aiki etc) in order to understand what the universe may decide to throw at us at any given time. Roman, by paying attention to those feelings, saved himself from being injured. I've had the opportunity to use the same feeling, where the outcome was different but the opportunity to use the feeling was the same. No harm, no foul. You survived. Congrats!

Osu
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:41 PM   #135
Michael Douglas
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

I've just read through the first page, and these three struck me as sensible comments;
Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Do you really need any martial arts to know not to pick a fight with 6 guys in a subway?
Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Somehow I bllieve every sensible person would have acted the same way once he realized the situation.
Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
That's exactly why I didn't see anything like "aikido" or any other type of budo and I certainly wouldn't call the scenario a "partial sucess with Aikido". Roman let one guy pull his headphones right off of his head, then still didn't notice that he'd been surrounded by six other guys, one obviously close enough to restrain him by his backpack. That doesn't sound like someone doing Aikido, that sounds like a lucky victim. I don't see how this could be described as an example of how Aikido 'worked' in a real encounter.
Just giving credit where it's due, and forgotten six pages back ...
now back to reading all the other stuff ...
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:57 PM   #136
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Response to David's answer from post #122:

That's more along the lines I was thinking. I just have a hard time seeing "the man, himself (in his prime)" walking away from such an encounter.

Thanks.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:58 PM   #137
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Finished reading the thread, and I had to include this comment too ;
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Well yes, it's more of a "failure to follow the basic tenets of your art" kind of story.
I think that the idea that exercising some sort of common sense by not getting into it with a group of thugs who already had the drop on you is Aikido is definitely faulty; you are right, it is not an example of a partial success of Aikido.
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Old 12-11-2007, 08:39 PM   #138
Keith Larman
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Thanks for your comments Keith. I was curious what you thought about the definition of "Masakatsu Agatsu" that OSensei offers in that same interview I quoted earlier:

SNIP

If I read that correctly, Masagatsu Agatsu could be translated as "Correct victory in accordance with the heavenly mission" rather than simply "victory over the self". Or, perhaps it is an addendum, that victory over the self doesn't really mean to suppress our baser instincts, but to give ones ego over to the divine teachings of Aikido irregardless of our own inclination? This is more like a spiritual take on the traditional ryu-ha paradigm (where the ego or personality of the member is gradually infused with the character and principles of the ryu-ha).

Any thoughts?
Yup, I have thoughts and mostly because of some digging I've been doing lately within my own style.

I've been taught a variety of things about this quote. One is from some ancient Japanese mythology. I don't recall the details (nor all the gods and details of things like swords and beads being chewed up and spit out if I remember correctly) but the bottom line was it was a story in the Kojiki. The translation of the names of the deities that sprang forth from one of these events included masakatsu agatsu.

I've read and been told by a few people that this expression became something of a war cry at various times and places. The notion came to mean a sort of higher order of victory by being so "in tune" that there was no battle at all.

Quote:
Or, perhaps it is an addendum, that victory over the self doesn't really mean to suppress our baser instincts, but to give ones ego over to the divine teachings of Aikido irregardless of our own inclination? This is more like a spiritual take on the traditional ryu-ha paradigm (where the ego or personality of the member is gradually infused with the character and principles of the ryu-ha).
I think you're reading a lot into it that isn't really there. The feeling is of instantaneous victory due to being in accord with the universe. To the extent that what you called the teachings of the ryu-ha are in accordance with that, well, sure, but I would hazard to guess that he had a much bigger context he was thinking of and wouldn't have been so limited.

O-sensei often spoke in aphorisms with grand, sweeping and poetic phrasing. This phrase is a great example as it has both deep, cultural meaning from early mythology but also because of the ripe symbolism of the kanji itself. So getting the context "correct" is a dicey proposition as you have to balance all those things out.

FWIW I was recently reading some writings of Seidokan's late Sensei (Rod Kobayashi) on the doka and have asked his family if I could help put together more of what Kobayashi-sensei had written. Kobayashi-sensei was intensely interested in O-Sensei's writings and as a matter of fact we have a lovely scroll of masakatsu agatsu I believe by O-sensei on our wall which was a very precious gift to Kobayashi. Kobayashi had been working on translating a number of them up until his untimely death and I'm hoping to get a look at some of things that haven't been made public.

One thing Kobayashi-sensei wrote before his death:

Quote:
The principle of shodo-o-seisu helps one have a deeper understanding of O'Sensei's teaching of masakatsu agatsu or "true victory is victory over oneself." If you calmly maintain control over yourself, you will not only find a way to control the opponent but will also be able to control the situation before drastic action is necessary. There will be no need to consider winning or losing, since there will be no contest. Both sides will be winners — the would-be attacker who didn't need to attack and the would-be defender who didn't need to defend.
So again I think the point here is a notion of victory as a sort of higher order victory. Not victory in the sense of beating them down but the idea that by being "one" with the situation you are able to stop it from happening at all. Hence the notion of "instantaneous" victory. "Victory" in this sense becomes a higher order notion of "winning" by being so in tune that you don't have the conflict at all... Hence Kobayashi's discussion of shodo-o-seisu helping understand the idea. The idea isn't that it is "just" victory over yourself, but that being one with the universe and not "perturbed" is a part of it. I think the "self-victory" aspect is overemphasized but that doesn't mean it isn't part of it at the same time.

This would also be the time to talk about concepts like fudo-shin, fudo tai. And then discussions of Fudo-Myoo exhibiting many of the qualities we're trying to talk about. That sort of "self-victory" is more how I take the concept. Sort of the goal of many philosophical systems of trying to see the world "as it is" (or the "world in-itself" or seeing the world "authentically" to borrow terms from the western philosophy). "Cutting through the illusions" allow one to see things as they are. And acting in accordance, fully aware, fully integrated, allows you the greatest power.

But I'm tired now and I spent way too long helping out in a first grade classroom. Lord knows working with 7 year olds is tougher is more tiring than reading Kierkegaard...

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Old 12-12-2007, 09:37 AM   #139
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I've been taught a variety of things about this quote. One is from some ancient Japanese mythology. I don't recall the details (nor all the gods and details of things like swords and beads being chewed up and spit out if I remember correctly) but the bottom line was it was a story in the Kojiki. The translation of the names of the deities that sprang forth from one of these events included masakatsu agatsu.
Thanks for your comments Keith. I think some of what you are referencing is from the discussion on e-budo that Ron linked to above. I had missed or forgotten that exchange and it was a really good read. Thanks Ron for posting it.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:03 AM   #140
Keith Larman
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Ah, yes, that was the thread -- I missed Ron's link. That thread years ago got me asking questions of various folk I am acquainted with, some of whom had been training in Japan through the 50's and 60's with varying experiences with O-sensei. Others who are historians. It also spurred me to talk with Kobayashi-sensei's family about the topic and what he'd written since he was fluent in English and Japanese and studied O-sensei's writing quite a bit. Interesting stuff. It does somewhat change the "casual" definition of the term, or at least places it in a different light I think. My *current* take on it revolves around a sort of "symbolic" meaning of instantaneous -- i.e., the victory is "instantaneous" because there was simply no "event". You won before it started *because* you were so totally in tune that nothing could happen that you couldn't easily deal with. So the idea of two swordsmen circling each other but never drawing because they realize that they are completely and totally matched. Or one not choosing to draw because they see there is no opening and they cannot possibly win. Both are in this sense "instantaneous" victories (victories at the speed of light, etc.). So a higher order understanding of the notion of victory.

So.... Back to Roman's post... I think walking way quickly and calmly once aware of the situation can be a higher order of victory, especially if there was little chance of any other sort of "victory" if he had engaged them. It wasn't the best situation to get into (which is absolutely *not* the right approach) but once he "tuned in" I think things changed. So it depends on when you start counting whether he gets credit...

But, of course, all this is just my own current take struggling through the translations and what I've been taught. Ask me again in 2 years and I'll probably give you a different answer...

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Old 12-12-2007, 10:41 AM   #141
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

No worries....just skip over the bruceb posts...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:45 AM   #142
ChrisMoses
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
No worries....just skip over the bruceb posts...

Best,
Ron
But are you...

sure?

That's...

wise???

After all, you'll all...

come around.

Someday.



(appologies for being off topic and snarky, sometimes I can't help myself.)

Chris Moses
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