Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-29-2011, 08:41 AM   #1
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Aikido taiotoshi?

Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0

Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 09:18 AM   #2
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0

Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?
Sorry Bob, I just can't see Taiotoshi in that clip. The judo version is a rotation around the ankle. The aikido projection had no focus around that point.

I would roughly call that technique a variation of 2nd form kokyunage, but others may call it something else, as I realise our nomenclature over here is a bit different.

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 09:23 AM   #3
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 601
Sweden
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

In Iwama style a highly similar waza is part of the kokyunage-family of throws. It can be done from shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, katatedori etc.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 09:26 AM   #4
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Sorry Bob, I just can't see Taiotoshi in that clip. The judo version is a rotation around the ankle. The aikido projection had no focus around that point.

I would roughly call that technique a variation of 2nd form kokyunage, but others may call it something else, as I realise our nomenclature over here is a bit different.

regards

Mark
You might be surprised, Mark. This same throw (pretty much exactly) is shown in Core Techniques of the Kodokan Judo Syllabus by Steven Cunningham.

In any case, I think you misunderstood: the video I cited is labeled as Taiotoshi by Mr Posluns (not me). I've never seen taiotoshi listed in any aikido compendium, so was wondering if (a) this was an orthodox naming (b) an orthodox technique (c) Something unique to this video
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 09:30 AM   #5
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Internet glitch, so can't edit. Anyway, wanted to add - could someone point me to a video or three of any similar Aikido techniques?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 09:31 AM   #6
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
You might be surprised, Mark. This same throw (pretty much exactly) is shown in Core Techniques of the Kodokan Judo Syllabus by Steven Cunningham.

In any case, I think you misunderstood: the video I cited is labeled as Taiotoshi by Mr Posluns (not me). I've never seen taiotoshi listed in any aikido compendium, so was wondering if (a) this was an orthodox naming (b) an orthodox technique (c) Something unique to this video
Hi Bob,

not an orthodox naming in aikido as far as I am aware, however the technique seems pretty orthodox to me. I don't see anything unique there apart from the naming.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 09:43 AM   #7
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Ok, cool. Could you (or someone) post a clip to " technique a variation of 2nd form kokyunage" or "In Iwama style a highly similar waza is part of the kokyunage-family of throws".

I'm especially interested to see anything that uses that hand position (one hand on uke's bicep / front deltoid area)
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 09:44 AM   #8
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
I've never seen taiotoshi listed in any aikido compendium, so was wondering if (a) this was an orthodox naming (b) an orthodox technique (c) Something unique to this video
(a) Nope. I would call it a kokyu nage. Of course, 'kokyu nage' is the name for all techniques that don't have a name. :-)
(b) More or less. Not standard, but not unorthodox either. (I have an aikikai background, btw.)
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 09:44 AM   #9
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
Spain
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Iwama style

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=HMFWiF2HOOE

Hand goes around elbow level. Not as high as in the OP clip.

Ed. By Saito M.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f1LOIqmNI4

7 min mark

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 11-29-2011 at 09:54 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 10:02 AM   #10
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Thanks Demetrio. I'd love to see more too, if people have them.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 10:20 AM   #11
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Thanks Demetrio. I'd love to see more too, if people have them.
More elbow than biceps, but this one exists as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dor41J26Q14
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 10:24 AM   #12
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Any where uke is projected to his sides, rather then directly back? Ie: the two directions marked in yellow


Last edited by bob_stra : 11-29-2011 at 10:36 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 10:36 AM   #13
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0

Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?
I'd say that's kokyunage. Doesn't look at all like tai otoshi to me at all. Not the angles, not the weight distribution on nage's legs, not the direction uke is projected, different kuzushi, different tsukuri, different kake.

Different. Really different.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 11:01 AM   #14
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Tai otoshi means literally "body drop"... (the body drop that's described by the name is the tori's dropping body, by the way, not the aite only) a true taiotoshi doesn't need to block the leg/ankle of the aite. It can be done that way but shouldn't really be necessary and when necessary it should be a last minute placement as the aite's leg is thrusting into a recovery cycle. Any sumi otoshi can be done as a dropping body or it can be in the floating phase. Sumi is to a corner and these waza are pretty much the same. Some have called these types of waza as Kokyunage... I think all waza done really well could be called "kokyunage", by the way.

Mifune, Kyuzo sensei was known to throw taiotoshi without any blocking of the uke's foot/ankle/leg. The naming of waza and in judo, for example, it's inclusion in a particular type of waza category is very telling... for example, taiotoshi is not thought of as ashiwaza. Another example, many lower level judoka throw uchimata with actions that are really koshiwaza, or hip throws. Uchimata is an ashiwaza.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 11:47 AM   #15
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
Spain
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

I've been watching some clips of Poslums Sensei and I'd say he is a bit idiosyncratic at giving names to waza.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 11-29-2011 at 11:57 AM. Reason: typo
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 12:00 PM   #16
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
Tai otoshi means literally "body drop"... (the body drop that's described by the name is the tori's dropping body, by the way, not the aite only) a true taiotoshi doesn't need to block the leg/ankle of the aite. It can be done that way but shouldn't really be necessary and when necessary it should be a last minute placement as the aite's leg is thrusting into a recovery cycle. Any sumi otoshi can be done as a dropping body or it can be in the floating phase. Sumi is to a corner and these waza are pretty much the same. Some have called these types of waza as Kokyunage... I think all waza done really well could be called "kokyunage", by the way.

Mifune, Kyuzo sensei was known to throw taiotoshi without any blocking of the uke's foot/ankle/leg. The naming of waza and in judo, for example, it's inclusion in a particular type of waza category is very telling... for example, taiotoshi is not thought of as ashiwaza. Another example, many lower level judoka throw uchimata with actions that are really koshiwaza, or hip throws. Uchimata is an ashiwaza.
Well, I know that and you know that, but most judoka act as if they don't or have forgotten

Given the video of Poslum sensei, I thought perhaps there was some modern footage of this kind of throw, assuming its a common aikido (but uncommon judo) variant. That may be a bad assumption, though
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 01:16 PM   #17
Janet Rosen
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0

Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?
Joel Posluns was the dojocho of San Francisco Aikikai until about ?7 or 8 years ago? - he would have integrated this into his teaching via the late Kanai Sensei who showed this at seminars at SFA many times.
I never saw it any aikido lineage other than Kanai Sensei.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 01:37 PM   #18
CitoMaramba
 
CitoMaramba's Avatar
Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Philippines
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

In this video Nishio Sensei demonstrates tai-otoshi against a shomen uchi attack. Nishio Sensei had a very extensive judo background.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I82BQFQ5uZ0

Now in this example, Koji Yoshida Sensei, one of Nishio Sensei's senior students, demonstrates tai-otoshi against ryosode-dori attack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03roY2ab7MI

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 01:54 PM   #19
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
In this video Nishio Sensei demonstrates tai-otoshi against a shomen uchi attack. Nishio Sensei had a very extensive judo background.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I82BQFQ5uZ0

Now in this example, Koji Yoshida Sensei, one of Nishio Sensei's senior students, demonstrates tai-otoshi against ryosode-dori attack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03roY2ab7MI
I'm down with both of those being tai-otoshi. Notice how (like Chuck points out) nage's body drops their weight and this is what effects the throw *over their leg not over the hips/back*. In the video of Nishio sensei, you can clearly see that the majority of his weight in on his left leg, not the one blocking the path of his nage and his weight drops as he bends first the left knee and then (potentially) the right knee. In the OP's video, nage has their weigh on the right leg and projects uke away (the movement is horizontal).

I like what I've seen of Nishio sensei. Always bummed I never got to feel his waza.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 04:57 PM   #20
Janet Rosen
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I'm In the OP's video, nage has their weigh on the right leg and projects uke away (the movement is horizontal).
It is one of a couple of Kanai Sensei's "signature" moves that brought uke around that way and I always felt they carried a very high risk of unhealthily torquing nage's knee inward.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 05:45 PM   #21
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Sumootoshi. Uke just took a maai ukemi that"s all.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 06:05 PM   #22
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

i kinda like this gentleman approach http://www.youtube.com/user/kazeutab...72/pkatrOtokkE you can go from judo close-up to open further out to aikido sort of distance.

btw, that youtube channel has lots of interesting stuffs

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 10:43 PM   #23
Janet Rosen
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Sumootoshi. Uke just took a maai ukemi that"s all.
I'm sorry, you are wrong. Joel Posluns is doing what he learned from Kanai Sensei of the USAF-ER as tai otoshi.
Here are videos of other Kanai senior students doing variations of the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55-8aOyPaHs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvzUL7rkmq8
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1105162587713

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 11:09 PM   #24
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

This waza being discussed is one of my tokuiwaza in both judo and aikibudo. I actually polished my taiotoshi after some time being helped by George Harris sensei, one of the old hands from the U.S. Air Force SAC judo program and a great world class judoka. He had very long legs and could make this seem to come from nowhere... RIP George Harris.

This is heresy in some circles, but then I've never worried much about that .... real judo and real aiki are the same thing. I'm not talking about IJF sport jacket wrestling. When I was in Tanabe in 1965 I was talking with some old fellows about budo... only one of them remembered Ueshiba (even though there's a statue of him near the train station and the old family home was still standing) and he said, "oh, yes, Ueshiba of 'no touch judo', a great master." I wish I could've got that on tape.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2011, 01:42 AM   #25
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido taiotoshi?

USAF SAC Judo program....ALOT of history there!

  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 80 06-10-2022 08:32 AM
My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido Reuben General 126 02-17-2015 09:56 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 6 Peter Goldsbury Columns 35 03-13-2009 06:16 PM
The continued Evolution of Aikido salim General 716 12-27-2008 10:00 PM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:49 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate