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11-29-2011, 08:41 AM
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#1
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Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
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Aikido taiotoshi?
Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0
Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?
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11-29-2011, 09:18 AM
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#2
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Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0
Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?
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Sorry Bob, I just can't see Taiotoshi in that clip. The judo version is a rotation around the ankle. The aikido projection had no focus around that point.
I would roughly call that technique a variation of 2nd form kokyunage, but others may call it something else, as I realise our nomenclature over here is a bit different.
regards
Mark
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Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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11-29-2011, 09:23 AM
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#3
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Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 601
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
In Iwama style a highly similar waza is part of the kokyunage-family of throws. It can be done from shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, katatedori etc.
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11-29-2011, 09:26 AM
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#4
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Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Sorry Bob, I just can't see Taiotoshi in that clip. The judo version is a rotation around the ankle. The aikido projection had no focus around that point.
I would roughly call that technique a variation of 2nd form kokyunage, but others may call it something else, as I realise our nomenclature over here is a bit different.
regards
Mark
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You might be surprised, Mark. This same throw (pretty much exactly) is shown in Core Techniques of the Kodokan Judo Syllabus by Steven Cunningham.
In any case, I think you misunderstood: the video I cited is labeled as Taiotoshi by Mr Posluns (not me). I've never seen taiotoshi listed in any aikido compendium, so was wondering if (a) this was an orthodox naming (b) an orthodox technique (c) Something unique to this video
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11-29-2011, 09:30 AM
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#5
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Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Internet glitch, so can't edit. Anyway, wanted to add - could someone point me to a video or three of any similar Aikido techniques?
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11-29-2011, 09:31 AM
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#6
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Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
You might be surprised, Mark. This same throw (pretty much exactly) is shown in Core Techniques of the Kodokan Judo Syllabus by Steven Cunningham.
In any case, I think you misunderstood: the video I cited is labeled as Taiotoshi by Mr Posluns (not me). I've never seen taiotoshi listed in any aikido compendium, so was wondering if (a) this was an orthodox naming (b) an orthodox technique (c) Something unique to this video
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Hi Bob,
not an orthodox naming in aikido as far as I am aware, however the technique seems pretty orthodox to me. I don't see anything unique there apart from the naming.
regards,
Mark
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Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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11-29-2011, 09:43 AM
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#7
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Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Ok, cool. Could you (or someone) post a clip to " technique a variation of 2nd form kokyunage" or "In Iwama style a highly similar waza is part of the kokyunage-family of throws".
I'm especially interested to see anything that uses that hand position (one hand on uke's bicep / front deltoid area)
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11-29-2011, 09:44 AM
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#8
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Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
I've never seen taiotoshi listed in any aikido compendium, so was wondering if (a) this was an orthodox naming (b) an orthodox technique (c) Something unique to this video
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(a) Nope. I would call it a kokyu nage. Of course, 'kokyu nage' is the name for all techniques that don't have a name. :-)
(b) More or less. Not standard, but not unorthodox either. (I have an aikikai background, btw.)
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11-29-2011, 10:02 AM
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#10
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Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Thanks Demetrio. I'd love to see more too, if people have them.
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11-29-2011, 10:20 AM
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#11
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Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Thanks Demetrio. I'd love to see more too, if people have them.
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More elbow than biceps, but this one exists as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dor41J26Q14
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11-29-2011, 10:24 AM
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#12
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Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Any where uke is projected to his sides, rather then directly back? Ie: the two directions marked in yellow
Last edited by bob_stra : 11-29-2011 at 10:36 AM.
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11-29-2011, 10:36 AM
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#13
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Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0
Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?
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I'd say that's kokyunage. Doesn't look at all like tai otoshi to me at all. Not the angles, not the weight distribution on nage's legs, not the direction uke is projected, different kuzushi, different tsukuri, different kake.
Different. Really different.
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11-29-2011, 11:01 AM
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#14
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Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Tai otoshi means literally "body drop"... (the body drop that's described by the name is the tori's dropping body, by the way, not the aite only) a true taiotoshi doesn't need to block the leg/ankle of the aite. It can be done that way but shouldn't really be necessary and when necessary it should be a last minute placement as the aite's leg is thrusting into a recovery cycle. Any sumi otoshi can be done as a dropping body or it can be in the floating phase. Sumi is to a corner and these waza are pretty much the same. Some have called these types of waza as Kokyunage... I think all waza done really well could be called "kokyunage", by the way.
Mifune, Kyuzo sensei was known to throw taiotoshi without any blocking of the uke's foot/ankle/leg. The naming of waza and in judo, for example, it's inclusion in a particular type of waza category is very telling... for example, taiotoshi is not thought of as ashiwaza. Another example, many lower level judoka throw uchimata with actions that are really koshiwaza, or hip throws. Uchimata is an ashiwaza.
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11-29-2011, 11:47 AM
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#15
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
I've been watching some clips of Poslums Sensei and I'd say he is a bit idiosyncratic at giving names to waza.
Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 11-29-2011 at 11:57 AM.
Reason: typo
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11-29-2011, 12:00 PM
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#16
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Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
Tai otoshi means literally "body drop"... (the body drop that's described by the name is the tori's dropping body, by the way, not the aite only) a true taiotoshi doesn't need to block the leg/ankle of the aite. It can be done that way but shouldn't really be necessary and when necessary it should be a last minute placement as the aite's leg is thrusting into a recovery cycle. Any sumi otoshi can be done as a dropping body or it can be in the floating phase. Sumi is to a corner and these waza are pretty much the same. Some have called these types of waza as Kokyunage... I think all waza done really well could be called "kokyunage", by the way.
Mifune, Kyuzo sensei was known to throw taiotoshi without any blocking of the uke's foot/ankle/leg. The naming of waza and in judo, for example, it's inclusion in a particular type of waza category is very telling... for example, taiotoshi is not thought of as ashiwaza. Another example, many lower level judoka throw uchimata with actions that are really koshiwaza, or hip throws. Uchimata is an ashiwaza.
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Well, I know that and you know that, but most judoka act as if they don't or have forgotten
Given the video of Poslum sensei, I thought perhaps there was some modern footage of this kind of throw, assuming its a common aikido (but uncommon judo) variant. That may be a bad assumption, though
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11-29-2011, 01:16 PM
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#17
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Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0
Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?
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Joel Posluns was the dojocho of San Francisco Aikikai until about ?7 or 8 years ago? - he would have integrated this into his teaching via the late Kanai Sensei who showed this at seminars at SFA many times.
I never saw it any aikido lineage other than Kanai Sensei.
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Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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11-29-2011, 01:37 PM
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#18
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Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
In this video Nishio Sensei demonstrates tai-otoshi against a shomen uchi attack. Nishio Sensei had a very extensive judo background.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I82BQFQ5uZ0
Now in this example, Koji Yoshida Sensei, one of Nishio Sensei's senior students, demonstrates tai-otoshi against ryosode-dori attack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03roY2ab7MI
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Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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11-29-2011, 01:54 PM
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#19
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Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote:
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I'm down with both of those being tai-otoshi. Notice how (like Chuck points out) nage's body drops their weight and this is what effects the throw *over their leg not over the hips/back*. In the video of Nishio sensei, you can clearly see that the majority of his weight in on his left leg, not the one blocking the path of his nage and his weight drops as he bends first the left knee and then (potentially) the right knee. In the OP's video, nage has their weigh on the right leg and projects uke away (the movement is horizontal).
I like what I've seen of Nishio sensei. Always bummed I never got to feel his waza.
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11-29-2011, 04:57 PM
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#20
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Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
I'm In the OP's video, nage has their weigh on the right leg and projects uke away (the movement is horizontal).
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It is one of a couple of Kanai Sensei's "signature" moves that brought uke around that way and I always felt they carried a very high risk of unhealthily torquing nage's knee inward.
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Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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11-29-2011, 05:45 PM
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#21
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Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
Sumootoshi. Uke just took a maai ukemi that"s all.
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Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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11-29-2011, 06:05 PM
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#22
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Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
i kinda like this gentleman approach http://www.youtube.com/user/kazeutab...72/pkatrOtokkE you can go from judo close-up to open further out to aikido sort of distance.
btw, that youtube channel has lots of interesting stuffs
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11-29-2011, 11:09 PM
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#24
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Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
This waza being discussed is one of my tokuiwaza in both judo and aikibudo. I actually polished my taiotoshi after some time being helped by George Harris sensei, one of the old hands from the U.S. Air Force SAC judo program and a great world class judoka. He had very long legs and could make this seem to come from nowhere... RIP George Harris.
This is heresy in some circles, but then I've never worried much about that .... real judo and real aiki are the same thing. I'm not talking about IJF sport jacket wrestling. When I was in Tanabe in 1965 I was talking with some old fellows about budo... only one of them remembered Ueshiba (even though there's a statue of him near the train station and the old family home was still standing) and he said, "oh, yes, Ueshiba of 'no touch judo', a great master." I wish I could've got that on tape.
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11-30-2011, 01:42 AM
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#25
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Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
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Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
USAF SAC Judo program....ALOT of history there!
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