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Old 04-24-2017, 07:09 PM   #2001
shuckser
Dojo: Brighton Aikikai, UK
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
*sigh*

Not one of you seems to realise that the most important thing about baking is the internal practice. If your baking lacks internal power it is useless. And to be honest, what would be the point?
It's at least a way to develop the form. With mastery of that, one can move on to studying the four principles of Baking to develop ones IP:

1. Keep rolling pin.
2. Leaven completely.
3. Keep flour underside.
4. Expend heat.

Again, these won't help you to actually eat. But with a few decades of study you might be able to lay the breakfast table.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:25 PM   #2002
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Two thousand.
Three Thousand - Let's go for it!
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Old 04-25-2017, 01:24 AM   #2003
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Look, I'm not going to comment on anyone else's cooking; some prefer French, some Thai, and then there's always fusion. Even fried bologna can be filling. All I know is, for me, I bake so I don't have to eat in the first place.


Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-25-2017, 02:59 AM   #2004
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Look, I'm not going to comment on anyone else's cooking; some prefer French, some Thai, and then there's always fusion. Even fried bologna can be filling. All I know is, for me, I bake so I don't have to eat in the first place.

Have your cake and eat it too.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:57 PM   #2005
Shadowfax
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Three Thousand - Let's go for it!
I could go for some 3000. And a cup of coffee.
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:33 PM   #2006
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
I could go for some 3000. And a cup of coffee.
Further and further off topic... (or is it farther?)
"some 3000"? What's that? And if I ever get to Pittsburgh, I'm up for a coffee... Pittsburgh - that's somewhere in the eastern USA, right? They claim to have Penguins there, but I've only ever seen penguins in New Zealand...
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Old 05-05-2017, 02:51 PM   #2007
Garth Jones
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Further and further off topic... (or is it farther?)
"some 3000"? What's that? And if I ever get to Pittsburgh, I'm up for a coffee... Pittsburgh - that's somewhere in the eastern USA, right? They claim to have Penguins there, but I've only ever seen penguins in New Zealand...
Pittsburgh is about 200 miles straight south of you. There is a lake in the way though. It's about a 5 hour drive. So come on down, train with us, and have coffee!

Cheers,
Garth

PS Our Penguins wear ice skates are paid lots of money....
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:29 PM   #2008
Riai Maori
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
but I've only ever seen penguins in New Zealand...
Yellow eye? And yes those Bluff oysters are delicious.

Motto tsuyoku
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Old 05-06-2017, 07:18 AM   #2009
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Richard Campbell wrote: View Post
Yellow eye? And yes those Bluff oysters are delicious.
Little Blue. Near Oamaru. And... I forget exactly where, but the petrified wood on shoreline, "Mainland" somewhere IIRC..

When we were at regattas at Twizel, the Awarua Boating Club (Bluff) would bring oysters to the pub for all the rowers and coaches... when in season, of course.

Pittsburgh Penguins.. currently sans their superstar. Hmm. I'd visit for a practice but for not having tied on a hakama since... wow... 2011. Old age, arthritis, and shortage of dojo that practice when I'm not at work..
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Old 06-04-2017, 06:53 AM   #2010
Petrus
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

https://youtu.be/5Hoeb7sBqRc
Perhaps this will help.
Cheers
Petrus
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:56 PM   #2011
bothhandsclapping
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

As a new Aikido student, I'll never forget here in Albuquerque going to an event called All Japan Week, where they had representatives from about 15 or so different Japanese martial arts - each giving a short demonstration. I was amazed by the number of times that I said to myself - "hey, that's an Aikido move!" (Like the other arts stole our techniques.)

For the techniques that stress wrists and elbows and shoulders - almost every martial art has all the very same moves as Aikido. After all, there are only so many ways an arm can bend and turn and only so many ways you can try to use that turning and bending to influence an encounter. Realistically, to call an arm bar an Aikido move would be a bit of a stretch.

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
"The universe, aikido, the mind - both hands clapping!"
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Old 12-18-2018, 06:56 PM   #2012
Erik Calderon
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I put this vlog together talking about how Aikido can be used for real self defense. Might not be what you expect, but I will post here that I have used Aikido in a few "real life" situations and it worked just fine for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_UVrR8b-Zs

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Old 12-20-2018, 04:52 PM   #2013
shizentai
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Erik Calderon wrote: View Post
I put this vlog together talking about how Aikido can be used for real self defense. Might not be what you expect, but I will post here that I have used Aikido in a few "real life" situations and it worked just fine for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_UVrR8b-Zs
All I saw in your video is repetitive advertising of Aikido's "fall and get up" routine as something unique to Aikido.
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Old 12-26-2018, 12:45 PM   #2014
Erik Calderon
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
All I saw in your video is repetitive advertising of Aikido's "fall and get up" routine as something unique to Aikido.
Thank you for watching my video, I hope you enjoyed the content. And I have to admit, the only other art that I've seen that effectively teaches how to fall is Ninjutsu.

I had a really good friend while I lived in Japan, Sean Askew, that trained in Ninjutsu, and we used to go to the temples and train together. It was a lot of fun, and when you're getting thrown around on concrete, you learn real fast what works and what doesn't.

Oh, and by the way, being in shape is extremely important for making Aikido work in a real fight. Here's a vlog that I just uploaded on one of my training routines:



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Old 12-26-2018, 05:49 PM   #2015
shizentai
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

You forgot Judo and Hapkido. Ukemi is not unique to Aikido, and the trope about ukemi being self-defense, is wearing pretty thin IMO.

Yes, being in shape is important to self-defense. But again, this doesn't have much relevance to the topic of a specific martial art's effectiveness in self-defense.
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Old 12-27-2018, 08:11 AM   #2016
Erik Calderon
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
You forgot Judo and Hapkido. Ukemi is not unique to Aikido, and the trope about ukemi being self-defense, is wearing pretty thin IMO.

Yes, being in shape is important to self-defense. But again, this doesn't have much relevance to the topic of a specific martial art's effectiveness in self-defense.
Hapkido is one art, I've seen, but never experienced. And I don't think Ukemi is unique to Aikido, and I've seen my fill of Aikido teachers that teach ukemi in a way that would hurt if you landed on concrete!

One thing that I've always kept very dear to my heart, "The Martial Art doesn't make The Man; The Man Makes the Martial Art." [Man meaning human being, nothing to do with gender]

So, for Aikido to be effective as a self-defense, it really has everything to do with the "Person" and nothing to do with the art itself.

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Old 12-28-2018, 01:37 AM   #2017
shizentai
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Erik Calderon wrote: View Post
One thing that I've always kept very dear to my heart, "The Martial Art doesn't make The Man; The Man Makes the Martial Art." [Man meaning human being, nothing to do with gender]

So, for Aikido to be effective as a self-defense, it really has everything to do with the "Person" and nothing to do with the art itself.
This isn't a universal concept, though. It applies to Aikido because Aikido offers a wider spectrum of benefits than physical self-defense (namely, the misogi element), and the emphasis is clearly NOT on physical self-defense.

So in order to make it work in reality, one does have to do homework - to look into modernized Aikido, to experiment, play with resistance, get a bit mischievous.

This, however, doesn't apply to systems which are designed from ground up to be focused on physical application, with any spiritual benefits being a secondary side-effect. You learn those systems, and your ability to physically defend yourself will inevitably improve. It's the spiritual side that you'd have to do homework on, and that's the side which will vary from one practitioner to the next.
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Old 12-28-2018, 05:15 PM   #2018
IvLabush
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

It's outstanding question that arise as many years as I have practiced Aikido.
As far as I concern there are a lot of misleadings about self-defence vs Aikido questions.
Let's start about self-defence term. Today self-defence in common sence means Personal Unarmed Self-defence that aims to preserve person's rights for live, health, wealth and dignity. Was this terms common in century old Japan? I think not. People 'make a fists at other' to fight each other for some reason. Small sheeves have been common in that times. Defend valuable things means fight others in old times.
In 1945 tables was changed for Japan and martial arts was changed in a way that times demands. Some of old traditions have been wanished mostly others changes. Modern Aikido that we familiar of aims to (I have read Japanese wiki about Aikido and there is a point to laught on me):
1. Physical and mental development;
2. Union of personality and nature;
3. Build personality that's usefull for sosiety.
What does it means? It means that there is no goal to growth figthers using modern Aikido. Of course methods and techniques of modern Aikido based on old methods and techniques of Japanese martial arts could hurt people in some way. So the one that aims to hurt people able to do it in some way. But basically modern martial arts aims to develop people in proper to sosiety way.
The next point is about modern self-defence itself.
You're not allowed to hurt people in a way that outdo local lores. Despite some local lores than allow to shoot man trespassing your territory local lores's quite heavy.
Some court may threats martial art skills as aggravating circumstances. So your ability to defend yourself depends on circumstances.
In my point of view the best fight tactics in modern world - avoid the fights. It's quite simple 'not to stand in place that could be hitten'. Someone may call me a coward but social life the way more important than proud.
Regarding my old times I remember one episode, sorry for my nostalgia. One man said to me that self defence is an ability to see to hear and to feel troubles in order to avoid it. If you had to 'make your fists' it means that you miss the point of self-defence and had to fight and you'll stand up the lore for that basically.

Sorry for my poor English, hope my ideas come to you unchanged.

Last edited by IvLabush : 12-28-2018 at 05:19 PM.

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Old 12-31-2018, 10:28 AM   #2019
dps
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
This isn't a universal concept, though. It applies to Aikido because Aikido offers a wider spectrum of benefits than physical self-defense (namely, the misogi element), and the emphasis is clearly NOT on physical self-defense.

So in order to make it work in reality, one does have to do homework - to look into modernized Aikido, to experiment, play with resistance, get a bit mischievous.

This, however, doesn't apply to systems which are designed from ground up to be focused on physical application, with any spiritual benefits being a secondary side-effect. You learn those systems, and your ability to physically defend yourself will inevitably improve. It's the spiritual side that you'd have to do homework on, and that's the side which will vary from one practitioner to the next.
The Aikido I was taught was clearly about physical self-defence and it worked as experienced by myself and others in my dojo. The the spiritual side was there too but was reached by the training and experience of being able to defend oneself.

Playing with resistance is like a child making noise on a plastic toy musical instrumental compared to Baroque or Classical musicians.

dps

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 12-31-2018, 02:16 PM   #2020
Walter Martindale
Location: Edmonton, AB
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
This isn't a universal concept, though. It applies to Aikido because Aikido offers a wider spectrum of benefits than physical self-defense (namely, the misogi element), and the emphasis is clearly NOT on physical self-defense.

So in order to make it work in reality, one does have to do homework - to look into modernized Aikido, to experiment, play with resistance, get a bit mischievous.

This, however, doesn't apply to systems which are designed from ground up to be focused on physical application, with any spiritual benefits being a secondary side-effect. You learn those systems, and your ability to physically defend yourself will inevitably improve. It's the spiritual side that you'd have to do homework on, and that's the side which will vary from one practitioner to the next.
Every dojo where I've been a member emphasized self defence and a lot of training... only some paid slight attention to anything spiritual outside of the starting and ending rites at a training session
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Old 12-31-2018, 03:28 PM   #2021
shizentai
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The Aikido I was taught was clearly about physical self-defence and it worked as experienced by myself and others in my dojo. The the spiritual side was there too but was reached by the training and experience of being able to defend oneself.

Playing with resistance is like a child making noise on a plastic toy musical instrumental compared to Baroque or Classical musicians.

dps
"No True Scotsman" fallacy doesn't change the fact that there's a very good reason why mainstream Aikido is the class clown of the martial arts world. It CAN be made useful for self-defense. But, for example, the way the current Doshu demonstrates it, has little to do with physical practicality, and is clearly oriented toward self-purification as primary goal.

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Every dojo where I've been a member emphasized self defence and a lot of training... only some paid slight attention to anything spiritual outside of the starting and ending rites at a training session
If your dojos were mainstream Aikikai or Ki Society, as opposed to modernized fringe branches of Aikido, then they were doing the typical disservice to their students by making them believe they're learning a self-defense system. Intent does not equal outcome.

Last edited by shizentai : 12-31-2018 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 01-01-2019, 02:16 AM   #2022
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
"No True Scotsman" fallacy doesn't change the fact that there's a very good reason why mainstream Aikido is the class clown of the martial arts world. It CAN be made useful for self-defense. But, for example, the way the current Doshu demonstrates it, has little to do with physical practicality, and is clearly oriented toward self-purification as primary goal.

If your dojos were mainstream Aikikai or Ki Society, as opposed to modernized fringe branches of Aikido, then they were doing the typical disservice to their students by making them believe they're learning a self-defense system. Intent does not equal outcome.
It depends on the sensei. I was fortunate to have sensei who had practical experience dealing with disturbed, drugged, or armed opponents... a meat cleaver in one instance, where the rest of his team shot the other attackers after he dealt with the guy with the chopper - he told me he wasn't sure if his attacker lived through the iriminage with head taking full impact with a concrete floor.
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Old 01-02-2019, 08:25 AM   #2023
lbb
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

81 pages, 18 years, god knows how many posts rehashing the same old stuff. The zombie thread that will never die because people never learn and are incapable of letting it go.
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Old 01-02-2019, 11:37 AM   #2024
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
81 pages, 18 years, god knows how many posts rehashing the same old stuff. The zombie thread that will never die because people never learn and are incapable of letting it go.
C'mon Mary, we're trying for 3000 posts... now if people would look at, say, the first five pages, they'd likely see that someone has already expressed their opinion in one form or another..

Must... not... post... noooooo
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Old 01-03-2019, 05:27 PM   #2025
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
81 pages, 18 years, god knows how many posts rehashing the same old stuff. The zombie thread that will never die because people never learn and are incapable of letting it go.
"Let go" of what? The fact that people are claiming to teach a martial art with which none of them can actually fight? Seriously, what's the problem of discussing this issue?
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