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Old 01-16-2012, 06:40 AM   #101
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
That's a strange attitude from someone who, and I quote:

So do you rock up to your Tantrist training sessions and say, "Right chaps, as per usual we're with the ghora today, path of the charnel grounds, confronting the brutal and the unpleasant, mastering dread and fear, remaining unmoved by the threats of daemons and growing into a tempest, etcetera and oh, yes, don't touch each other's necks."?

Honestly curious.
I hope I can dispel your curiosity. As a matter of fact, it is easy.
The fact you find yoruself comfortable with thinking the unpleasant, that for some reason or the other you find your mental attitutde more attuned to make an attempt to pursue (pursue, nobody is here speaking of attaining it - no one can be so conceited, not even me gee LOL) illumination by confronting the unpleasant, does not mean you're into slaughtering people.

Dealing with the unpleasant does not imply you're an unpleasant guy; dealing with the imagery of violence does not mean you're a violent guy, dealing with the imagery of wrathful deities does not mean you are supposed to go around eviscerating guys.
Ideally, it should mean that no matter how unpleasant a situation, you won't be deterred in facing it.

Of course we all know of persons that deal with that imagery and are indeed pathological: news show them to us. But those are not persons who solicit that imagery within themseleves in order to administer manage and deal with it: those are guys to whom that imagery imposes itself to them. They don't master their own imagination: they're victims of it.

So facing brutality, does not mean you will face it slashing throats. It means you won't be deterred, again ideally, by a guy attempting to slash yours.

As a matter of fact, I could explain this in a deeper fashion.

Human beings live on two levels - and this is a proved fact (no one contends this). We live on the conscious level, and on an unconscious one (the unconscious level is not something which can be conveneintly ascribed whatever to - dreams and action describe it or give hints about its objectivity).

If on the conscious level you are all for harmony and the pleasant, the imaginery of the unpleasant won't sit idle and it is not that because you don't think of it it does not exist within you: it will be simply confined into the unconscious, where it would go on exerting its influence on you. Only, it will do in a silent way and it will eventually dictate its own pace and rules at times, as you're unaware of it.

If on the conscious level you're all for the wrathful deities, the imaginery of the pleasant will be in the unconscious.

What is the outcome of this?
Exactly what you see here: guys that are all, in their conscious lives, for aiki, for harmony, for non-resistance, for mild "gentler" aikido, all of a sudden are also into strangling, chocking, doing things that may break a neck - and all of this without a peep: it is the violence they harbour inside that, unrecognized from within their unconscious, takes its toll.
Fatalities may ensue. This is why a guy like Seagal won't maim you on the dojo, but a very very gentle and considerate aikidoka, one day may happen to cause you an "accident".
That's how the unconscious work: by accidents.

On the other hand you see guys who are for dealing consciously with attacks that are violent, brutal (as real attacks would be, normally - exception made for drunkards...), who are the same guys who would actually refrain from strangling other guys.

That grabbing a neck is positively extremely dangerous, goes without contention.

The fact so many persons seem to find it suitable, is because their murderous instincts are buried within themselves, they never came to term with those, and so this is how they manifest themselves: they think they're doing the right thing, and yet they do things that can be murderous.

The more you think about the ghora, by soliciting the thoughts and not because the thoughts come to you by themselves (that would be psychosis...), the less lethal you will be.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 01-16-2012 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 01-16-2012, 07:17 AM   #102
Belt_Up
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
That grabbing a neck is positively extremely dangerous, goes without contention.
I think it's been clearly contended here, in this thread, if nowhere else, and with proof, too.
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Old 01-16-2012, 07:34 AM   #103
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
I think it's been clearly contended here, in this thread, if nowhere else, and with proof, too.
Uuuuuup :-)
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Old 01-16-2012, 08:50 AM   #104
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
On the other hand you see guys who are for dealing consciously with attacks that are violent, brutal (as real attacks would be, normally - exception made for drunkards...), who are the same guys who would actually refrain from strangling other guys.
You mean the guys who pepper spray, taze, beat you with a baton or give you "lead poisoning" because (for various motives) they are not properly trained to safely, for everyone involved, choke their attackers into unconsciousness?

Quote:
That grabbing a neck is positively extremely dangerous, goes without contention.
No, it isn't and it doesn't.

Quote:
The fact so many persons seem to find it suitable, is because their murderous instincts are buried within themselves, they never came to term with those, and so this is how they manifest themselves: they think they're doing the right thing, and yet they do things that can be murderous.
Killing can be the right thing to do.
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Old 01-16-2012, 11:24 AM   #105
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post

Killing can be the right thing to do.
Point proven. Thank you.

Btw a line like that ought not to be tolerated on a forum.
That's how much aiki some aikidoka can be - that's what was smouldering beneath the ashes of so much "harmony" and "gentle" martial arts.
See?
Nietzsche and Freud were amply right.

As for chokes being assumed as not clearly murderous and as not proven as being definitely a potential and clear threat and danger to a human being's life, trying to argue that grabbing a guy's neck is not extremely dangerous and potentially murderous (like any physician could explain to you with ample demonstration) is like trying to explain that shooting somebody in a leg cannot sever his tight artery and so it is safe

It is like arguing that a gun is basically safe. But when you're at gunshots, you're into killing grounds just as much as you are when you grab a neck assuming that you won't break it.

First comes the unconscious and unadmitted desire to kill, then come the explanations and the reasons to do it.

Than in an aiki forum a line like the one saying that killing can be not only condoned but even encouraged as the right thing to do (it is, obviously enough, open to the subjective speculation of anyobody to decide, then, when those "right" motives came...), it is such a line so beyond any argument and any "aiki" related topics, that shouldn't even need to be discussed. Neither to be raised.
It's a startling line, highly dis-educative on a forum open to public inspection also by so many beginners.

Killing is never the right thing to do. Never.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 01-16-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 01-16-2012, 12:01 PM   #106
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Point proven. Thank you.
Prego

Quote:
Btw a line like that ought not to be tolerated on a forum.
Are you against freedom of speech?

Quote:
That's how much aiki some aikidoka can be - that's what was smouldering beneath the ashes of so much "harmony" and "gentle" martial arts.
See?
Nietzsche and Freud were amply right.
Not sure about Nietzsche, but Freud was a bit confused about women "privatas partes". How are they related to what is discussed here?

Quote:
As for chokes being assumed as not clearly murderous and as not proven as being definitely a potential and clear threat and danger to a human being's life, trying to argue that grabbing a guy's neck is not extremely dangerous and potentially murderous (like any physician could explain to you with ample demonstration) is like trying to explain that shooting somebody in a leg cannot sever his tight artery and so it is safe
You are assuming what I've posted about chokes is based on assumptions.

Quote:
It is like arguing that a gun is basically safe. But when you're at gunshots, you're into killing grounds just as much as you are when you grab a neck assuming that you won't break it.
It seems you can't tell the difference between choking and shooting. Sorry, I can't help you from here.

Quote:
First comes the unconscious and unadmitted desire to kill, then come the explanations and the reasons to do it.
Do you have a degree in psychology?

Quote:
Than in an aiki forum a line like the one saying that killing can be not only condoned but even encouraged as the right thing to do (it is, obviously enough, open to the subjective speculation of anyobody to decide, then, when those "right" motives came...), it is such a line so beyond any argument and any "aiki" related topics, that shouldn't even need to be discussed. Neither to be raised.
It's a startling line, highly dis-educative on a forum open to public inspection also by so many beginners.
Let me play online psychologist too: It seems you are reading too much in the sentence I posted. Projection much?

Quote:
Killing is never the right thing to do. Never.
Because you say so?

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 01-16-2012 at 12:04 PM. Reason: fixin' quote tags
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Old 01-16-2012, 12:50 PM   #107
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Alberto wrote:

Killing is never the right thing to do. Never.
For you.

That is a little too black or white for me. Given the right set of circumstances we are all capable of any behavior know and unknown to man. I feel each person needs to think about such matters before they come up. I know what I believe and I think I know what I could live with. Yet, for me it is not etched in stone.

Last edited by akiy : 01-16-2012 at 06:21 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag

Mary Eastland

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Old 01-16-2012, 01:57 PM   #108
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Killing is never the right thing to do. Never.
Huge subject... and I'm lazy just now.

Life is not that simple.

Chuck Clark
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:21 PM   #109
DonMagee
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
Huge subject... and I'm lazy just now.

Life is not that simple.
This totally reminds me of this.

http://comedians.jokes.com/daniel-to...ke-a-challenge

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-16-2012, 04:20 PM   #110
Rob Watson
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I don't like to practice chokes as it tends to aggravate my thyroid condition so I end up all jittery and other unpleasant stuff pretty quickly. I prefer to work on how not to get choked ... not exactly the same thing but close enough so as not to quibble.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 01-16-2012, 06:23 PM   #111
Michael Hackett
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Mr. Italiano,
I disagree with a couple of your conclusions. First, I'm not clear on what you mean by "grabbing a neck". A rear naked choke certainly affects the neck, but isn't applied by "grabbing". That word suggests a brutal and unfocused, perhaps even wrenching movement to apply the restraint. I suppose that in a fight for life, the person applying the technique might resort to grabbing as I understand it. A trained individual wouldn't grab anything - it is a rather subtle application.

Secondly your proposition that taking a life is always wrong is far too black and white for me. I agree that taking a life or hurting someone unnecessarily is wrong, but the operative word is unnecessarily.

Lastly I disagree with your thesis that many of us harbor some murderous sub-conscious inclination or desire and conceal it with a conscious "peace, love and harmony" attitude. Perhaps some do. If you have any data to support that thought, please share it. Otherwise these are merely your opinions - opinions you are entitled to hold certainly, but they don't rise to the level of fact.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:23 AM   #112
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Well written Michael. Opinions are free, but some carry more weight than others.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:43 AM   #113
RonRagusa
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Killing is never the right thing to do. Never.
Perhaps; but sometimes it's the necessary thing to do in order to survive, be it the right thing to do or not.

Ron

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Old 01-17-2012, 11:51 AM   #114
Walter Martindale
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

"Grabbing a neck" brings forward the imagery of someone reaching out and clasping my neck with both hands. This, to me, is an invitation for broken elbows unless the person reaching out is VERY strong.

Properly done "shime waza" with or without clothing involved requires a lot more control of the person than reaching out to hold onto the neck. If you have that much control that you can actually do the shime-waza, then you should also have the control to recognize when the person is "out" (should be within a few seconds) and it should be safe to disengage and get some distance between you and the person - they SHOULD wake up unless you've gone way past the "reasonable force" situation and held the choke on for a minute or three...

Frankly, I hope I'm never in a situation where I need to use this outside of the dojo..
W
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:50 PM   #115
RuteMendes
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Perhaps the more advanced aikidokas pratice them, i don't know! Chokes are a dangerous attack, it can stop the oxygen from reaching the brain and even making someone faint

I don't know, really... But if you are so willing to pratice chokes, ask your sensei ^^ Perhaps he/she will teach you some techniques!

Look at this video I found : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfnWWiISIKc <---- Atemi from a front choke.

Peace

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Old 01-24-2012, 10:17 AM   #116
Belt_Up
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oapqN...ature=youtu.be
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:20 PM   #117
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I, for one, love chokes. It's a great equalizer and, if you are not used to chokes, you'll panic. When you panic, you lose your center, balance and your "ki". I just want "grabbing the neck" explained. I am quiter efficient in chokes and choking and I have yet to "grab a neck"---whatever that means. Like I have said in an earlier post, if you have such a great fear of chokes, you need to confront that fear by getting into a judo class or learn from a qualified instructor. My class does chokes all the time and no one has died, been choked/passed out and all the other garbage people think about. If I get attacked, and I have been, and I get behind someone, I will apply a choke in less than a heartbeat. Been there and done that and he didn't even die, have brain damage etc, etc, etc. Face your fears and find out what choking is all about instead of assuming that you know about chokes when you have never studied them.
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Old 01-25-2012, 01:33 PM   #118
DonMagee
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I like how you bring up panic because you are right, it's a big part of chokes.

Last night I was working out at the bjj club and newer white belt was trying his best to choke me from bad positions. While his chokes were restricting and effecting my ability (purely out of pure brute force on my neck), experience told me to just relax and use my superior position to apply leverage to the right spots and force him to let go. Thinking back to when I first started, I might have tapped out to a choke like that out of pure panic, or gave up my position in some attempt to "escape" the choke. It's not a major skill and nothing anyone who has done judo or bjj for a year shouldn't know already, but it is very vital.

I tried to explain that you should work for superior position then choke, but he gave me a look that said "but this works with the other white belts...".

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:42 PM   #119
jdostie
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I'm not a big fan of chokes, but recognize them as something to have in the toolbox.

Frankly, I could see where they could be used just like other types of pins for submission.

Though I have not practiced them in Aikido, I have practiced them elsewhere, and when we do practice them, I, and those I have practiced with tap out fairly quickly. It's pretty obvious when the choke is "on," whether it be a choke to the windpipe, or choking the bloodflow, most times it's less than a second that the actual choke is in place.

Still, I usually feel like we practice them for longer period of time than I prefer.

Also not a big fan of any technique that uses a gi as an implement to do a technique (unless it can easily translate to other clothing, or a version that does not involve using the gi is also showed - whether it be a choke or any other kind of technique. That's a practical consideration, however.
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:27 AM   #120
Michael Hackett
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I got choked four times this evening after class. The technique was applied, I tapped, and we did it again. Nothing is sore and I showed my partner four different escapes from the choke and how to apply it most efficiently. Valuable training period and fun as well.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:18 AM   #121
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'm already aware of Feldenkrais' genius. If I get the book I'll give my unworthy (never choked anyone in a battlefield) opinion, but some of the pics in the cover make me cringe.
Update: I have the book. It's better than I expected and the clip is misleading.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:34 AM   #122
Walter Martindale
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Update: I have the book. It's better than I expected and the clip is misleading.
(thread resurrection)
There are some good clips brought up after the above clip finishes - Kimura demonstrating...
This clip - the guy's holding a rifle and bayonet and just sitting there - anyone in his right mind would be trying to break the shime any way he could - stabbing behind himself with the bayonet, reaching back for the eyes, and so on - one assumes that if there's someone choking you when you're escorting him at bayonet point, he's going to render you either unconscious or dead, so - yeah, right... sit there...

Must look up this book.
Cheers,
W
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:49 PM   #123
Aikeway
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I think a useful categorization of shime waza could be 1. naked strangles and 2. those requiring the gi to assist in the technique. I don't see a huge amount of benefit to an aikido person in learning and practising strangles that require either your partner's gi or your own gi to assist in the technique. It is unlikely that in a self defence situation you will either have to defend against a gi strangle or be able to use a gi strangle against an aggressor (unless in extremely cold environments). However, I do see a huge benefit in practising the naked strangles from the perspective of being able to escape them or not be caught by them and also to use them if necessary.
These are the strangles most likely to be used against you when wearing normal clothes. There really aren't that many naked strangles to learn. There are the two versions of the rear naked strangle called hadaka jime, there is the version of hadaka jime done from the front known as guillotine, there are variations of kata gatame which use your partner's own arm across their neck, their is sankaku jime also known as triangle which uses your legs around the neck and a few more such as anaconda choke. Just training in the naked strangles would save a huge amount of time and would add significantly to one's defensive skills and add to the repertoire of useful techniques.

In fact, I would love to see a form of randori developed for aikido which is done on the ground starting from the kneeling position, and using predominately wrist lock techniques, some elbow techniques from aikido, aikido face-down pins and only naked strangles. Styles such as Tomiki which already do two types of standing randori would probably be more receptive to this than some other styles.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:32 AM   #124
bkedelen
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I have done a *lot* of research into stand-up no-gi strangulations (choke means something else) specifically for use in Aikido waza and I have a lot of results which I will be happy to discuss at length if people are interested.

Ultimately the reason that stand-up shime waza is not trained is because it is not something that many Aikido people do well (with Greg Olson Sensei as a notable exception, his skill speaks for itself), is generally considered ineffective, and is arguably not part of our curriculum. The reason it is considered ineffective is because you need to be control uke's spine while applying any kind of standing static technique. If uke is in control of their spine and standing, they will literally walk away from your technique or use any number of very simple counters to lever your technique open and wriggle out.

Because of the need to manage the spine, arm-in strangulations (arm triangle, standing brabo, standing anaconda) are quite difficult to use successfully if they don't cause partner to quit instantly. They are much more reliable if the plan is to take them immediately to the ground because there is no way to trap the "in" arm and control partner's spine at the same time unless you transition to ne-waza. Every standing arm-in strangulation has a very simple, reliable counter (answering the phone, for instance).

No-arm strangulations (rear naked, bridged north-south, guillotine) are of much more utility but have their own problems. The standing rear naked, for instance, is almost impossible to impose on someone unless you are much taller than they are. Even then a two-arms-on-one defense is particularly effective when standing. Theoretically you could use the bridged north-south if you can get uke bending backwards with a kokyu nage, for instance, but lets not fool ourselves here, that the kind of thing other arts refer to as a "low-percentage" technique.

The real winner here is the guillotine. The standard problem with a standing guillotine is that it is usually a choke rather than a strangulation. Aikido people, including myself, are likely not interested in crushing their partner's windpipe in order to achieve our goals and therefore anyone interested in pursuing this kind of training will need to get very interested in the guillotine variations that result in strangulation rather than a choking, throat crush, or neck crank. The guillotine is also particularly vulnerable to a two-hands-on-one defense while standing, and any variation on it you develop ought to take that defense into consideration.

My research has lead me, in a rather roundabout and storied fashion, to a very effective guillotine variation called the arm-out brabo choke, or sometimes the ninja choke. The starting position is similar to the guillotine but with uke's head on the other side of your body. Done well, it goes on fast, starts from a position that might actually happen, produces nearly instantaneous results, allows nage to retain their Aikido tactical assets (upright posture, broad awareness, mobility), and results in a sweet slumber that everyone will agree later was really for the best. Done correctly your body forms a gallows upon which uke's bodyweight hangs them, and it is surprising and resistant to the standard defenses.

Anyone interested in my rather overwrought thoughts on the subject should grab me at a seminar or something and I will be happy to talk you to death about it.

Last edited by bkedelen : 01-10-2013 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:05 AM   #125
Richard Stevens
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Daniel Wilson wrote: View Post
I think a useful categorization of shime waza could be 1. naked strangles and 2. those requiring the gi to assist in the technique. I don't see a huge amount of benefit to an aikido person in learning and practising strangles that require either your partner's gi or your own gi to assist in the technique. It is unlikely that in a self defence situation you will either have to defend against a gi strangle or be able to use a gi strangle against an aggressor (unless in extremely cold environments). However, I do see a huge benefit in practising the naked strangles from the perspective of being able to escape them or not be caught by them and also to use them if necessary.
These are the strangles most likely to be used against you when wearing normal clothes. There really aren't that many naked strangles to learn. There are the two versions of the rear naked strangle called hadaka jime, there is the version of hadaka jime done from the front known as guillotine, there are variations of kata gatame which use your partner's own arm across their neck, their is sankaku jime also known as triangle which uses your legs around the neck and a few more such as anaconda choke. Just training in the naked strangles would save a huge amount of time and would add significantly to one's defensive skills and add to the repertoire of useful techniques.

In fact, I would love to see a form of randori developed for aikido which is done on the ground starting from the kneeling position, and using predominately wrist lock techniques, some elbow techniques from aikido, aikido face-down pins and only naked strangles. Styles such as Tomiki which already do two types of standing randori would probably be more receptive to this than some other styles.
http://youtu.be/9WkmgQQhVSw

I come from a judo background and have been in a "self defense situation" where I successfully employed a standing sankaku jime variation and gripped my own shirt the same way I would have a gi. I have also been choked unconscious with the t-shirt I was wearing in my younger years.

One of the biggest benefits of including strokes and strangulations in training is simply getting used to getting choked (mentioned earlier in this thread). Having been choked hundreds of times I can remain very calm as the "haze" sets in.
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