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Old 01-22-2007, 10:57 AM   #76
aikidoc
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

THe points mentioned are well taken and it is difficult to generalize.

Generally, I prefer not to embarass people by putting them on probation which is an acronym for failing to meet the standards of the rank being tested. If someone needs more training, no matter the hours, I feel it is better to let them know and get them the training. Especially, when the rank is nikyu or ikkyu levels. Just having the hours and time in grade should not be automatic.

Budd, you are right-bad behavior is bad behavior and this middle aged lady no matter her heritage demonstrated just that. As to reflecting poorly on the teacher, I disagree-at least in this case. My student is very supportive of his students and does not deserve to be treated in this fashion. He has a small school with a family atmosphere. She is simply way off base. I think some of these issues are external to the training environment and we are getting it taken out on us.

Rich, I disagree. I'm not on the spot for anything. I'm just the one conducting the test. She's the one on the spot in terms of behavior and testing.

By the way, I'm not approaching this as an airing of dirty laundry. I have seen this many times over the years. It frustrates me to see people get so close to shodan and then just piss away the opportunity for weak reasons. To train for so many years and then just quit escapes me. Different priorities I guess. When I went through that stage in my training, I did just the opposite. I cranked up my training and efforts-went from 5 to 6 days a week to 7 and sometimes double duty on 3 days a week while attending more seminars. And perhaps that is the crux of the matter, I saw the goal looming much closer and wanted to achieve what I set out to do. Maybe I was more goal oriented than they are-don't know. And yes, as everyone who has gone through the process I'm sure I had issues with instructors , etc. I just focused on my training and where I wanted to go with it and let that stuff work itself out over time. I have others that hung in there and are now part of the teaching staff. They continue to train to this day.

By the way, this lady had issues with a previous instructor as well and perhaps there may be a pattern there with her.

Last edited by aikidoc : 01-22-2007 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 01-22-2007, 11:01 AM   #77
aikidoc
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

Perhaps a deeper issue to consider here is why do people quit after investing so much time, money and effort in their training?
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Old 01-22-2007, 11:15 AM   #78
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

I don't know...I quit wrestling toward the end of the season in my second year. If I had continued showing up to practice, I would have lettered a second time, and gotten my jacket. At the time that seemed kind of a big thing to me.

But I found myself on the mat, wrestling, thinking about my writing rather than living in the moment. It just didn't seem important anymore. So I stupidly just stopped showing up. Come the end of my semester, I got an F on the course that you were automatically enrolled in as a member of a varsity sport. That got my attention...and I went to speak to my coach. He was kind...he gave me a choice...and A in the course, or the jacket. I took the A in the course of course.

I guess I say this for a couple of reasons...
a) bad behavior is bad behavior...it really doesn't matter why. The coach would have been perfectly correct to not give me the jacket AND flunk me. But I did learn some good lessons from him. One was that the quality of HIS mercy at least was not strained. Two being that respect is respect, in Asian MA or Western sport. A wise teacher will demand it. Three being that there are consequences for your actions. Live with it.
b) Sure, you can stop doing anything at any time...including living. But it would probably benefit us in most cases not to drop something we have a large investment in casually.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 01-22-2007 at 11:22 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-22-2007, 11:28 AM   #79
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

To the first point, I think it's always a reflection on the teacher how the students behave (as well as on the dojo, on the other students, etc.). In a dojo collective everyone shares responsibility and should take ownership -- it's just that the dojocho is the senior person and has the most responsibility. Obviously, as an adult, the student that exhibited the bad behavior is the person most responsible for their own actions, but an alternate argument can be made regarding them getting to a certain level without clearly understanding the requirements and responsibilities for 1) Having that level & 2) Advancing.

Please understand, I'm not criticizing the dojo or teacher in question, I'm more or less ruminating on how a collective is sometimes only as strong as its weakest link and the roles/responsibilities an instructor/senior may have. With each advancement in rank that I've made, I've become increasingly aware of the responsibilities to my dojo and my training that go along with it. It only gets harder, but then my ability to adapt and cope should be improving as well, ja?

Which leads to the point you just raised, regarding why people quit -- I think someone else chimed in that there's a natural drop-out associated with this type of training, I know my own instructor keeps details on how long people stay with it, their reasons for leaving, etc. In traditional dojo, I think a main goal is to have a healthy dojo collective to facilitate the training (this is accomplished in various ways), but another goal is to have enough people able to pass along/transmit the curriculum/skills/etc. Part of the "intangibles" that get passed along -- with waza/techniques, body skills and other knowledge -- is an "attitude" of training-for-its-own-sake.

Yet, along with the watering down of martial arts that's prevalent (inevitable as you make something ever-more-popular) is this entitlement attitude of "well, I've put in the time", or "well, I'm the next highest grade after Sensei" that is can be dangerously (and frequently) colored by a need to "get it". The brown belt syndrome and "hakamitude" that we were discussing earlier seems to go along with the idea that "I'm almost there!", instead of "Yup, another day training, need to work on that relaxation thing". When their illusions of competence/mastery get shattered, a knee jerk reaction can be to throw in the towel, throw a tantrum and/or walk away . . .

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Old 01-22-2007, 12:17 PM   #80
odudog
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

Japan is a test taking society. It sounds like she was really expecting to take the test. It might have been better to let her take the test and fail then to deny her the opportunity to test. This happens all the time for the kids taking the college entrance exams. They see how close or far they were in actually getting in and then have a basis on how much more they have to study. This mode of thinking is the opposite of us here in the US. We don't want to fail and will avoid taking the test if failure will be assured. Instead we wait until we are pretty sure that failure is not going to happen.

I don't know if you have seen the test syllabus in Japan, but when I saw what was required in the Aikikai Honbu Dojo, I was just floored by the simplicity. I was then told by someone there that they don't take you to be a serious student until you become a 2 Dan then they crack down on you hard. So even though she might not have been technically ready to pass the exam, she might have thought that she would still be able to pass for the grading is far from being a 2 Dan.
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Old 01-22-2007, 12:35 PM   #81
aikidoc
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

No one was denying her the opportunity to test. It was just being delayed for a week or two so she had the opportunity to work on things she needed.

To a certain extent, student behavior is reflective of the standard set by the dojo cho. However, it is virtually impossible to make everyone behave-if you have raised children or animals you will realize this fact. The fact she chose to misbehave shows me she has ownership of the problem and issue. She did not do the curteous thing which would be to discuss off the mat her concerns in a mature (she is mature) and professional manner and then working to resolve her concerns with the dojo cho. Instead, she chose to vent her frustrations with whatever by flying off the handle. A serious mistake on her part since she set a poor example for a senior student and misbehaved in a manner that demonstrates to me she is not deserving of the rank-stating people were liars, making false statements, acting inappropriately in class as a senior student, threatening the instructor, etc.

I'm sorry she chose this route. However, I think she has total ownership of whatever issues are bothering her and she has damaged her dojo status in a manner that is likely beyond repair. All without bothering to calmly discuss her concerns with the instructional staff and then making baseless statements to put the icing on the cake.

There are appropriate and inappropriate ways of going about something. Immaturity is not necessarily age related.
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Old 01-22-2007, 12:41 PM   #82
aikidoc
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
It just didn't seem important anymore. So I stupidly just stopped showing up.

I guess I say this for a couple of reasons...
a) bad behavior is bad behavior...it really doesn't matter why. The coach would have been perfectly correct to not give me the jacket AND flunk me. But I did learn some good lessons from him. One was that the quality of HIS mercy at least was not strained. Two being that respect is respect, in Asian MA or Western sport. A wise teacher will demand it. Three being that there are consequences for your actions. Live with it.
b) Sure, you can stop doing anything at any time...including living. But it would probably benefit us in most cases not to drop something we have a large investment in casually.

Best,
Ron
Perhaps that is why people quit-it just does not seem important to them anymore. In spite of the excuses one hears, I think that is a fairly valid reason. It's a personal choice and perhaps they got into what they were doing for the wrong reasons. Perhaps, what they thought was going to be less work turned out to be more than they were willing to do.

Yes, I agree bad behavior is bad behavior. The person who chooses to display the bad behavior often times tries to shift the blame to others. That is unfair.

Dropping something casually to me is a reactive response. It would perhaps make more sense to take a short vacation and see if you are missing what you were doing rather than burning your bridges.
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:05 PM   #83
Qatana
 
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

Some people do not "choose" bad behavior. Some people are striving to overcome severe behavioral difficulties.This may or may not apply to the situation being discussed but it Does apply top some of us.

Q
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:14 PM   #84
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

I do have sympathy for what you are saying Jo, but I have to ask a question. Why do some people with the background you speak of continually fail in life, but others from the same background succeed?

My father had many reasons in life to fail...but he didn't. He didn't accept excuses for himself, and he didn't accept them from me, either. Maybe that is kind of harsh sometimes...but it did work for him, and so far, for me. I hope I'm never really tested though...I've heard of people going through things that make me cringe...so I don't mean to dismiss what you are saying in any way.

Best,
Ron

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Old 01-22-2007, 07:46 PM   #85
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

I interpreted what Jo was saying to be more about brain chemistry and mental illness than background. Sometimes, it is very difficult to tell where to draw the line between assessing whether someone can't or won't do something, especially with a problem like depression. Before I ever suffered depression in earnest, I generally thought it was kind of lame excuse for being lazy. Since I had depressive tendencies myself, but never serious hopelessness or amotivation, I thought that severely unmotivated people could just get off their ass and do whatever it was they weren't doing, but that they were just being lame. I still think that in some cases and to some extent. However, I later experienced real depression and found that it makes it so that you don't want to do whatever it is or even think you do or should. Pulling yourself up becomes impossible because it changes the way you think and the content of your thoughts. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people who seem like Aikido shirkers or dropouts with no excuse are actually having depression problems that others, and perhaps even they themselves, don't know about.

I quit Aikido years ago due to a combination of chronic injury problems and unacknowledged depression. I didn't think I was depressed, but I can see that I was in retrospect. At the time it just seemed like I didn't feel like going more and more often, and complaints I had about other dojo members, situations, and aspects of training seemed to become more and more important. What a lot of people don't realize is that depression is not so much about bad emotions as it is bad, circular thought patterns that elicit bad emotions and/or emotionlessness. Often the sufferer does not notice the change in thought patterns or suspect that their thinking is being influenced by deteriorating brain chemistry. The ideas seem just as legitimate, volitional, self-evident, etc... as normal thought patterns. It's sneaky and not necessarily discernable to others or even oneself.
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:53 PM   #86
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

Ah, that makes perfect sense. I think you are correct, and I didn't understand what she was saying. Thank you for sharing such a personal experience...I don't know that I have that kind of courage. I hope things are well with you...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:36 PM   #87
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

Depression is practically an epidemic in the US. At any given time, between 5-10% of adults suffer from major depression and up to another 20% or so probably suffer from subclinical or untreated depression. There are a lot of probable reasons having to do with the differences between the typical contemporary industrialized lifestyle and the one humans were generally leading up until the last hundred years of so. It could also have been similarly prevalent in prior eras and simply not well accounted for in history.

It doesn't seem like a big thing to talk about it to me. The vast majority of my family and everyone I've ever known well has been depressed or depressive. I definitely don't want to be seriously depressed again, or be in a relationship with anyone who is, but the milder, lighter gray shades of it are integral to who I am and I wouldn't give it up now even if someone showed up with a magic wand.

If you are interested in understanding depression better, you can get a lot of insight with just a few hours of your time. I recommend a very short book by William Styron called "Darkness Visible".

http://www.tiny.cc/DarknessVisible

There is also a beautiful recent movie that gets it exactly right, while not being depressing in itself, called "Off The Map" with Sam Elliot and Joan Allen. One of my favorite movies ever:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0332285/
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:39 PM   #88
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

I don't know much about 'brown belt syndrome' save to say that my senpai, who are both going for their shodan test quite soon, while both maintaining a steady flow of wit and humor, always revert to their humble selves when put to the grindstone: neither one has an ego of any way, shape, size, or form, even though everyone endlessly jokes about it. I find myself humbled by them and eager to live up to them, but when I myself am put to the grindstone, I find myself lacking miserably. I have a natural tendency to help people, but when the rare occurance crops up when my uke is junior to me (I myself only have 5 months under my obi) and they ask a question, I'm bound by my ethics to answer but stumped by my complete and utter lack of experience and knowledge. Ironically (at least, ironically at first) my senpai seemed to give the same answers to me that I gave to my juniors. As I said, my senpai avoided their ego trips by accepting full well that they had a long road ahead of them, despite their long road behind them.

I think one of the biggest motivators that we have is our sensei. She's a remarkable lady and a damn near workaholic. She's currently holding down 4 jobs and still manages to compete in dog sled races! Yet never have I met a more emotionally secure and calm woman. She teaches by example, and one of her constant examples is that even she, a 4th dan with 25 years experience, isn't doing it "properly". In fact, no one is. It's a constant reminder to everyone, junior and senior alike, that the road is always long. Thankfully, she also manages to show us that the long road is full of wonderful things to keep us motivated and moving.

I also read mentioned about pressure... I don't know if my senpai feel pressure, but I know I certainly did when I was going up for my 6th kyu test. I took about 20 rolls during warmup just so I could calm my nerves, and it didn't help much. My sensei has a policy: if she lets you test, she's seen that you can pass the test, so the test is really a formality; you have the skills of whatever grade you're aiming for. Despite that, I was still a wreck. Though, the more I ponder it, the more I begin to wonder... wouldn't the teachings of Aikido help to focus thoughts and relieve stress due to that sort of pressure? Perhaps I won't be so nervous when it comes to 5th kyu...

And hopefully I'll remember my sensei and senpai when it comes to my shodan test many years from now (sadly, I'm moving away in a few months) and I'll keep my ego right where it should be: non-existant.

Adults are just outdated children, and the hell with them. - Dr. Suess

It's senpai's fault. - Andy-senpai
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Old 01-22-2007, 10:04 PM   #89
Qatana
 
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

Thank You ,Kevin, for clarifying my statement.

Q
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Old 01-25-2007, 07:11 PM   #90
Rich Stephens
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Interesting perspective overall, Rich, but using the difference in ranking practices between the two countries as an excuse not to practice seems awfully silly to me. Who cares? There is a lot of great Aikido here, and your experience on the mat will not be any different with a little dye on your belt or an extra piece of paper or two in your drawer.
Hi Kevin, I realize my earlier message wasn't clear. It's not that I prefer Japan because it was easier for me to get an extra piece of paper (my dojo didn't use colored belts): it's that I don't like the difference in attitude that the two ranking methods reveal.

Americans seem to place more emphasis on the rank (thus the colored belts) and, especially at the shodan level, view it as a great accomplishment - and not the humble beginning that the Japanese consider it. Perhaps because the students are going to place more emphasis on their new rank is why it takes longer between tests in the USA (i.e. if the students are going to think there is a huge difference between 3-kyu and 2-kyu or between 1-kyu and shodan, their sensei better make sure they actually do improve a lot between those steps). Or perhaps its vice versa.

Anyway, overall my hesitancy to study here is that I just don't think the experience will be the same for me here as it was there and I don't want to be disappointed or mar the impact that my short time studying in Japan has had on my life. It's also that I am used to doing and thinking of Aikido with the Japanese part of my brain and to do it in English just seems too weird to me. I realize this attitude is my problem alone and not a reflection on the fine sensei and students here in the usa, so I should probably just get over it and find a dojo and see if it feels right to me! Or perhaps there are Japanese run dojo in the San Francisco area that would help ease the transition?
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Old 01-25-2007, 08:01 PM   #91
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

Rich, I've been lurking this thread, but I'm now inspired to make two points of my own:

1) You're generalizing. It goes without saying that every system, every dojo, and every teacher is in some way different. You should look (with an open mind) for a situation that suits you, rather than assuming that none will. I'm sure that there is something on this side of the pond that will be similar enough to be useful to you.

2) Any practice is better than none at all, as your skills will diminish and you cannot benefit from simply remembering how things were in good ol' Japan. Your progress is as much a function of what you set up and focus on internally as it is a result of your external environment. You also could go a long way toward the benefit of others by passing on what (and how) you learned in Japan.

Don't let other people's preoccupation with rank affect how you view it. You may be at a crossroad, but it doesn't have to be the end of the road. Just my two cents worth.
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Old 01-25-2007, 09:16 PM   #92
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Brown Belt Syndrome

Rich,

I know what you mean about distaste for preoccupation with rank. I've always thought it would be nice if there were no ranks at all, but that extreme might be confusing. I avoided testing for some of my Aikido years and moved around too much for it others.

Back when I avoided it, it actually had more to do with me taking it too seriously, though not in the standard way. I found that I viewed tests in a very egocentric way - looking at them as an event where I had to perform perfectly and show how good I was. I didn't like getting into all that because I was more interested in aspects of Aikido that I were of interest to me, and not on the syllabus: problems, principles, etc...

I especially didn't like that whenever there was 'free' training time, everyone wanted to cram for their exams and no one wanted to do anything exploratory. It reminded me of college where most people were busy trying to figure out what to regurgitate for a good grade instead of thinking for themselves. I still have these complaints and think it is a problem with the ranking system.

However, I have decided that whenever I get back to a regular enough situation again, I am going to view the test differently. Basically, I am going to take it way less seriously and see it as something I am primarily doing for others. Other people in the dojo like testing, they'll help me prepare for it, they will even do half the work during the test... if I just show up when I'm supposed to and go along with it, it shouldn't be that much of a problem.
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