The purpose of Aikido?

Charles David Henderson wrote: I'd suggest this applies to the view of aikido practice as misogi -- for practice to form the sort of crucible in which something of significant and distinct about the nature of being human emerges in an interaction or within a person, the interactions, if stylized, must also have the vitality of budo.

Very nicely put. I hadn't made the connection to misogi in that way before.

Thanks,

I ended my aikido carrier same reasons as thread starter wrote about. What does it do to practise harmony, if there is no conflict present anytime during attacks in aikido class? Leads to egoism, delusions by my experience. However aikido has been one of my greatest passions.

I came back doing my own class, which showed some promise. I added some wrestling, sparring, basic punches and kicks to aikido priciples from start. Yes, a student made a spontaneus ykkyo during sparr after two months training.

If trained honestly sparring is required, just my opinion. So, I am thinking more to use modern combat techniques with aikidopriciciples of movement and non-resistance. Standing fighting, ground work, weapons training for it's exellent impact devoloping proper concentration and different distance, timing.

Those would be modeled into those three caregories. No any belt degrees. Boxing and wrestling does not have them, so why any combat art should have any? It's more japanese social code than western thing. Level of skill is anyway obviously seen and respect becomes without any "degrees".

But this cannot be called aikido anymore, or can it? Do I need to invent new/old name like Modern Aikibudo?

O Sensei said you have to find your own aikido.

The thread that wouldn't die...because the noobs keep bringing it back to life.

Oh be nice. Our words outlive us here, and so do the questions and opinions. Answers do change over time.

I have been wrestling with posting something about impending war, religious motivated violence, and terrorism on this international forum. There are many quotes from O Sensei about "The Art of Peace" and Aikido having a role in creating and maintaining peace. Does Aikido, do we, have a role to play in world peace? What are you doing yourself out there?

Ah yes, the question of Aikido's "street effectiveness" again. It's a complex one.

There is a lot involved in self-defence, and much of it is psychological. Do you radiate confidence? Are you able to resolve a situation in its preliminary stage, without anybody getting hurt? Such will go a long way in keeping you and others safe. And yes, ideally, "the way of harmony" will enhance your skills in this regard.

But of course, people asking this question usually want to know what happens when the proverbial shit hits the fan. Well, as far as all-round self-defence training is concerned, Aikido does have a number of problems. I will outline only two of them here; let's call them "beginning and end".

Attacks in Aikido are not realistic

In a real altercation, when people grab you, this will often be immediately followed by a punch, knee, head butt, or violent push. And they certainly won't keep holding on to your wrist forever, allowing you to do a nice ikkyo on them! Some folks will maintain that this is just the way we practice; it's for getting proper body mechanics down, and so fourth. But take my word for it, in a real situation, you will fight the way you have trained! No time to think, you will simply do what comes most naturally to you: What you have ingrained in your subconscious mind by countless repetitions. So if you want to be functional, better make sure that your training is functional - right from the start.

When real world attackers strike, it will most often take the form of a roundhouse punch delivered with the hand that is further away from you. I have heard people say they could defend against it the way they defend against a yokomen-uchi, but that's quite a different kind of attack. So again, if you want to be able to handle a wild 'haymaker', by all means, have them thrown at you in your training. How about using protective gear to make your training more realistic?

Not to mention weapon attacks. No knife fighter will be idiotic enough to 'step through' with a hyper-extended thrust, allowing you to do your neat tenkan evasion, followed by a kote-gaeshi. A series of stabs from close distance is much more likely. Or, if they have been influenced by a Filipino or Indonesian style, they might come at you drawing tight curves with the knife that you will quickly happen to be in the way of. How are you going to deal with that?

Finishes in Aikido are not realistic

In fairness, that depends on the situation. Sometimes, that submission armlock is in fact all it takes to resolve a situation - especially, if the situation is not that serious, or you can rely on quick help from others. But consider what you would do if that were not the case. You can't hold an aggressor down indefinitely. Plus, once he signals that he is in pain, you will likely release the hold, simply because that's what you have been training countless times. He might even go: "I give up, man!" - and you will believe it because you have only been dealing with nice, cooperative people so far...

Let's not forget, on the street (or in a bar), aggressor often have buddies. So there you are, safely pinning your opponent to the floor, while his friend demonstrates to you the effect of a whiskey bottle when used "externally".

Sure, we have our atemis. I have met advanced practitioners seriously claiming that their totally untrained uppercut would surely knock out an aggressor, and their yokomen-uchi delivered to the side of the neck would kill them! Well, practitioners of the various striking arts work long and hard to achieve that kind of effectiveness, using various kind of equipment. Surely, they must be doing it all wrong...

So, in conclusion, yes, Aikido principles and techniques can be part of your self-defence art repertory, but only if they are trained as such, which means, with attacks that are as realistic as it gets, done as effectively as possible with speed and power, and supplemented by techniques and training methods used in other arts.

Thread originates back to 2010 about anonymous someone who then stopped practising Aikido.
After five years I doubt your answers will be received....

That's okay. This topic is timeless, and somebody else might want to chime in.

Patrick Buchbinder wrote: That's okay. This topic is timeless, and somebody else might want to chime in.

I'm sure they want to chime in; I question whether anyone has anything new to say on the subject. It's the blind men and the elephant.

Aikido has so many purposes for so many different people. For me it's fun, I get exercise, and it's very relaxing. Sure, there are many other, and deeper benefits for me, but those should be enough. And seriously, if we're talking martial effectiveness - I'm pretty sure my hands are lethal, at least my wrists hurt like hell

This is a fairly old topic but I thought I would give my two cents on this subject. It's seems you walked away from Aikido for the same reason several other's have in the past and for the same reason that seems to be claiming more practitioners as we speak. I would like to think I understand where you are coming from because I have had much of the same type of journey. I started practicing back around 97' and really enjoyed the beginning of my training spending 5-6 days per week in the Dojo. However as you pointed out, after some time I began to question the validity and practicality of what was being taught and of course asked myself the million dollar question, would this ever really work? Would what I was being taught actually work in a physical altercation outside of the Dojo?
During my journey I have had the opportunity to practice with several different teachers and in a few different styles and In my opinion (and thats all it is) not all styles of Aikido are created equal. In my search I have come across some styles and teachers who of course have a rather large false since of security (and worse) that teach just plain passive BS and then stroke their own ego by claiming it would work. They have their black belt and hakama and they are on the job and unfortunately, these are the same people that have probably never been in a physical altercation in their lives.

Without sounding like a complete pompous ass here, they seem to think that the passive BS they have been practicing is going to actually get them out of a situation that has turned physical because their verbal deescalation techniques or worse yet their "In Aikido we don't believe in fighting" escape tactic didn't fix the issue. They seem to think that out in the street their beautiful techniques that they display in the dojo while their students are in awe and taking falls for them is going to actually work. As a former police officer, I can tell you unfortunately in the real world, that isn't at all how this game is played and all those beautiful techniques are going to get you monkey stomped, folded up, stuffed in a box and mailed back to your momma before you even know what happened.
I completely understand that there are many reasons that people practice Aikido and they are all wonderful, legitimate reasons. However, where I have an issue is when people are told that what they are being taught is self defense when that couldn't be further from the truth. If you want to train the mind, body and spirit, I don't think there is a style of Aikido that can't take you on that journey with wonderful results. However if you are training for martial or practical reasons, I think you need to seriously stop and look at what and how it is being taught. Of course we always get the, well there isn't really that much difference between all the different styles being taught, Well I beg to differ and having had the opportunity to try a few different styles can again tell you (in my opinion) that is not the case. Tenshin Aikido is by far the most Practical style of Aikido that I have ever had the pleasure of training in and I really think that you would have found what you were looking for. Whats the old saying, "rather than spending ten years of arduous training with one teacher, spend ten years to find the right teacher."

I remember the first time I ever experienced Tenshin Aikido. We were training and lucky enough to have a couple of visitors from the Los Angeles area on business that decided to practice with us during their stay. To make a long story short this gentleman and his son where like dealing with badgers in a sack! They were so fast, efficient and powerful that you were on the mat looking at the ceiling before you even knew what happened. I had the opportunity to talk with the father after one of our classes where I asked about their approach and techniques. It was brought to my attention that they both were students of not only Tenshin Aikido but direct students of Matsuoka Sensei.
Of course I immediately began researching and looking for a Tenshin school but quickly realized that there were very few of them around and I just wasn't able to get to one of them. It took many years for me to finally get to the Tenshin instructor and school where I am at now and I wish I would have been able to train there with him from the start. It's funny because I remember leaving the school where I was training at the time and the head of the school asked what style I was leaving for. When I replied Tenshin, he quickly made the comment, "I've trained with Seagal and Matsuoka and all that their type of Aikido is going to teach you is how to get you a lawsuit"!

It took a minute for my brain to register what had just been said and I really wanted to ask him, did you just strain every muscle in your head making that comment? What does that even mean? Does it mean I should I stay here with you and learn techniques that don't have a snowballs chance in hell of ever working because with all due respect thats just about all this style teaches! I mean I get the whole idea behind "only use the amount of force needed to put a stop the situation" but come on!
Last time I checked we have four very simple rules, do not get grabbed, punched, kicked or taken to the ground and with very few exceptions, just about everything your style of Aikido teaches allows one or more of those four things to happen readily. Ok, I'm done with my rant but at least I said what I needed to and hopefully you realize you are not alone in this struggle. It's frustrating my friend to hear that you have made the commitment and reached a level that you should be proud of only to hear you say you are walking away because you don't believe in what you have learned. Whats worse is that it wasn't the art that failed you when in fact it was the way you where led to believe it was something it wasn't. If you are still around and practicing consider looking into Tenshin Aikido. I truly think you would be happy and would continue your great journey with a since of accomplishment for your particular set of goals.

Good luck.

Mary Malmros wrote: It's the blind men and the elephant.

Four blind elephants feel a human.
The first reports that humans are flat, and the other three agree.

dps

This seems like such a simple response, but it is really quite profound and seldom taken to heart: "There is not one Aikido."

John Cox wrote: This is a fairly old topic but I thought I would give my two cents on this subject. It's seems you walked away from Aikido for the same reason several other's have in the past and for the same reason that seems to be claiming more practitioners as we speak. I would like to think I understand where you are coming from because I have had much of the same type of journey. I started practicing back around 97' and really enjoyed the beginning of my training spending 5-6 days per week in the Dojo. However as you pointed out, after some time I began to question the validity and practicality of what was being taught and of course asked myself the million dollar question, would this ever really work? Would what I was being taught actually work in a physical altercation outside of the Dojo? During my journey I have had the opportunity to practice with several different teachers and in a few different styles and In my opinion (and thats all it is) not all styles of Aikido are created equal. In my search I have come across some styles and teachers who of course have a rather large false since of security (and worse) that teach just plain passive BS and then stroke their own ego by claiming it would work. They have their black belt and hakama and they are on the job and unfortunately, these are the same people that have probably never been in a physical altercation in their lives. Without sounding like a complete pompous ass here, they seem to think that the passive BS they have been practicing is going to actually get them out of a situation that has turned physical because their verbal deescalation techniques or worse yet their "In Aikido we don't believe in fighting" escape tactic didn't fix the issue. They seem to think that out in the street their beautiful techniques that they display in the dojo while their students are in awe and taking falls for them is going to actually work. As a former police officer, I can tell you unfortunately in the real world, that isn't at all how this game is played and all those beautiful techniques are going to get you monkey stomped, folded up, stuffed in a box and mailed back to your momma before you even know what happened. I completely understand that there are many reasons that people practice Aikido and they are all wonderful, legitimate reasons. However, where I have an issue is when people are told that what they are being taught is self defense when that couldn't be further from the truth. If you want to train the mind, body and spirit, I don't think there is a style of Aikido that can't take you on that journey with wonderful results. However if you are training for martial or practical reasons, I think you need to seriously stop and look at what and how it is being taught. Of course we always get the, well there isn't really that much difference between all the different styles being taught, Well I beg to differ and having had the opportunity to try a few different styles can again tell you (in my opinion) that is not the case. Tenshin Aikido is by far the most Practical style of Aikido that I have ever had the pleasure of training in and I really think that you would have found what you were looking for. Whats the old saying, "rather than spending ten years of arduous training with one teacher, spend ten years to find the right teacher." I remember the first time I ever experienced Tenshin Aikido. We were training and lucky enough to have a couple of visitors from the Los Angeles area on business that decided to practice with us during their stay. To make a long story short this gentleman and his son where like dealing with badgers in a sack! They were so fast, efficient and powerful that you were on the mat looking at the ceiling before you even knew what happened. I had the opportunity to talk with the father after one of our classes where I asked about their approach and techniques. It was brought to my attention that they both were students of not only Tenshin Aikido but direct students of Matsuoka Sensei. Of course I immediately began researching and looking for a Tenshin school but quickly realized that there were very few of them around and I just wasn't able to get to one of them. It took many years for me to finally get to the Tenshin instructor and school where I am at now and I wish I would have been able to train there with him from the start. It's funny because I remember leaving the school where I was training at the time and the head of the school asked what style I was leaving for. When I replied Tenshin, he quickly made the comment, "I've trained with Seagal and Matsuoka and all that their type of Aikido is going to teach you is how to get you a lawsuit"! It took a minute for my brain to register what had just been said and I really wanted to ask him, did you just strain every muscle in your head making that comment? What does that even mean? Does it mean I should I stay here with you and learn techniques that don't have a snowballs chance in hell of ever working because with all due respect thats just about all this style teaches! I mean I get the whole idea behind "only use the amount of force needed to put a stop the situation" but come on! Last time I checked we have four very simple rules, do not get grabbed, punched, kicked or taken to the ground and with very few exceptions, just about everything your style of Aikido teaches allows one or more of those four things to happen readily. Ok, I'm done with my rant but at least I said what I needed to and hopefully you realize you are not alone in this struggle. It's frustrating my friend to hear that you have made the commitment and reached a level that you should be proud of only to hear you say you are walking away because you don't believe in what you have learned. Whats worse is that it wasn't the art that failed you when in fact it was the way you where led to believe it was something it wasn't. If you are still around and practicing consider looking into Tenshin Aikido. I truly think you would be happy and would continue your great journey with a since of accomplishment for your particular set of goals. Good luck.

David Skaggs wrote: Four blind elephants feel a human. The first reports that humans are flat, and the other three agree. dps

The human had a black belt in Aikido.

dps

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A quote from Saotome Sensei.

"My purpose is to guide Aikido students away from the "dancing mindset', from training in a comfortable way mentally and physically. I want to make them think about the real meaning, the real application of "harmony" -- it comes from the moment of being in front of an enemy who can destroy you, who is not going to participate in your harmony. This is the essence of O Sensei's Aikido meaning, and without this understanding Aikido is missing something important. I often ask my students, "can you defend your life?" Because if your answer is "no", then your Aikido has no real meaning and you have no real understanding of Aikido principle. If Aikido is just dancing for you, then your Aikido is shallow, and it has no ability to either defend or heal."

From an interview by Sensei Guy Hagan.

"The following article is written in Sensei’s voice based on that interview, and to match the flow of the conversation as much as possible. It is also written to convey Saotome Sensei’s deep convication and explanation about how the study of destructive techniques can be not only consistent with Aikido moral philosophy, but requisite for a deeper understanding of the teachings of the Founder. "

"Balance From Destruction: Secret Teachings of O Sensei"

https://tampaaikido.com/articles/bal...s-of-o-sensei/
dps

John Cox wrote: stuff

I completely agree. There's a lot of ignorance and resistance in Aikido community toward a style that is far superior to pretty much everything else being taught, and that style is Tenshin Aikido. It maintains the core Aikido principles and its non-competitive aspect, but at the same time it is infused with a healthy dose of common sense. It is the most technically sound version of Aikido, the most adapted to the modern times.

Aikidoka who talk crap about it can never muster a coherent critique. Usually because they know nothing about it, and are afraid of it, too.

It seems Aikido has an identity crisis as my late sensei use to say. Seems the idea of having a stated purpose by the Founder was not shoe horned into a Western dennotative dictionary defination. I think it was due to the way the Japanese thought reflective of the language around about say 70 years ago when he formed Aikido independently we westerners struggle to identify a purpose.

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Anonymous User wrote: Each Albrigi tank meets an operational philosophy based on nearly thirty years of experience in the production of stainless steel systems, which has guided the company towards the application of the most modern technologies and the most advanced construction techniques. The high quality standards, supported by the almost entirely robotized production structure, complete the maximum precision of processing and finishing. All Albrigi Tecnologie tanks are fully integrated with AISI 304, AISI 304L, AISI 316 and AISI 316L austenitic steel and comply with the second highest quality standard and the most restrictive norms of the sector (GMP, FDA, 3A). These processes are added to the guarantee of the steel, a particular effectiveness and speed in the operations of maintenance and cleaning, according to the legislation. In the last ten years Albrigi Tecnologie has specialized in the food sector in particular, providing high quality systems for famous brands in the industry such as Aia, Barilla and Zuegg. Its geographical location, in the heart of Valpantena, which is part of the so-called enlarged Valpolicella, where Amarone and Recioto is produced, has made it possible, however, that Albrigi Tecnologie immediately developed an attention for the wine sector, so much so that over the years it has become one of the most successful companies in Italy also in the construction of registered plants for the storage and fermentation of wines .. The owner is Stefano Albrigi who, after a long experience in the sector, has understood the importance of investing in technological development and in in-house professional skills. For this reason, around 35% of turnover is spent on research and business improvements. For Albrigi Tecnologie the search for ever new solutions is in the first place. Among the innovations recently proposed at the latest trade fairs (Vinitaly, Simei, Sitevi), we recall Il Archimede System, control and vinification system for automation in the cellar, Picturetank and Colourtank, for a touch of liveliness in the cellar and Polifascia, economic and innovative system, an exclusive Albrigi patent to condition your existing tanks

At first I thought this post was from Eric Mead and I was trying to understand how the physics of wine storage could improve my Aikido.

dps

David Skaggs wrote: At first I thought this post was from Eric Mead and I was trying to understand how the physics of wine storage could improve my Aikido. dps

This. Is. Hilarious.

i have never practiced aikido. i've always liked aikido for it's focus. staying centered and avoiding harm. i practiced tae kwon do. personally, i believe the benefit from a properly taught martial art is the daily experience and growth. to train for self-defense i find a waste of focus.
the reason choi hong hi developed tae kwon do was for the development of the character of the individual.