Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-26-2017, 07:16 AM   #26
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,123
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
Maybe true. We have little enough language in common in any other aspect of Aikido, so why would our abstract analogies be any different? So how to move forward from there?
Common experience. This is nothing new; it's how it's been ever since humans developed language and moved out of the Rift Valley.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2017, 09:41 AM   #27
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 423
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
A proposed first step is accompanying video. But alas, in the day of smart phones I am the only one that contributed such a first step. :-(
This is a good idea, and something that was not available until recently.

I can't find it now, but Christopher Li had a piece on many of the uchideschi of Ueshiba unable to understand the oral transmission and so only acted on what they saw. It seems to be a common theme.

Say, a student is entering and their hands are connecting in a variety of ways and all these catches are going on, and lots of effective blocking. Well, the hypothetical student has only been told, "just get your hands up and cut." This movement can lead to many techniques "spontaneously" because we usually define a technique as involving two people. If you saw a specific movement that you tried to imitate, you wouldn't be likely to achieve the same outcome, and you would have many specific things to memorize that mentally the student was never actually planning to do.

Watching is valuable, but spontaneous action would have to spill into the mental.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2017, 10:03 AM   #28
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 423
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
It seems to me that it would be more meaningful to talk of spontaneity if we could come to a fundamental consensus. Is it:

1.) A muscle to be exercised? or a
2.) A switch to be flipped?

In nearly 30 years of both formal Zen and Aikido practice (not to mention 30 years as a professional skeptic, aka electrical engineer), it is absolutely clear to me that true spontaneity is not the former. That while jiyu waza may provide insight into spontaneity, it will never, on its own, actually develop spontaneity. Sorry.

Spontaneity is not the equivalent of a muscle. Jiyu waza can only ever develop familiarity, which, actually, is a 'muscle to be exercised'. And, unfortunately, many unsophisticated practitioners and observers will inevitably be seduced by advanced familiarity, which they will mistake for spontaneity.
Familiarity and advanced familiarity are perhaps difficult enough to train for some and a worthy endeavor. If a student learns to walk with better stability and balance, and more effective biomechanical structure, options open up for combat but also life in general. Reflexive movement that happens beneath conscious thought or planning can be trained, and it is not truly spontaneous. Ideas like spiraling to neutralize resistance while attacking the center are not truly spontaneous but can lead to two people moving together in a way that they never planned or intended to. The spontaneous creation of technique I think means the interplay of at least two people, but these people might be moving in explicitly trained ways.

For combat, moving from the center while attacking their center is not an unlimited set of variables; we would want to weed out spontaneous falling in the fetal position, or fainting, or stiffening up, or any number of other things.

If I understand you, Not breaking the flow might look spontaneous but is an understanding of the options available at a specific moment and feeling for uke's balance and movement and it is a quick decision. I still like it. I do not want a desire for spontaneous technique to mean training to be brainless.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2017, 01:59 PM   #29
Hilary
Dojo: Torrey Pines Aiki Kai
Location: San Diego
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 95
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

For spontaneity to occur, several things to have been learned and present. Embodiment of technique, fudotai and fudoshin are a must. Some manifestation of a connected aiki body takes it to the next level.

Embody the techniques. If you have to think about them then you are too late and in trouble. Sensei uses the example of running down stairs. If you start to think about the placement of each foot, you are going to mess up, either a hitch or a full-blown dive. With time dependent physical skills, the expression must be felt rather than thought, hence the term embodiment. Advanced athletes may visualize beforehand, but in movement they are feeling their way through.

Fudotai undisturbable body. If your physicality can be derailed by the unexpected, or you are really worried about getting hit, then you have no confidence in your body doing the right thing to protect you. If your parrying skills are not up to par, you cannot deflect an attack with confidence. If your shoulders come up and you tense with an unexpected change in attack, then you are not yet equipped to be spontaneous.

Fusdoshin undisturbable mind. Your mind cannot be calm unless you intrinsically trust your body, so one is mostly a precursor to the other. The presence of fudotai and fudoshin allows one to stay in the active present and feel one’s way to the correct solution de jour, or more properly take advantage of the opportunity provided by kuzushi on contact. IP folk will tell you that uke makes no difference, but that is a more advanced and separate discussion. A much preferable state of affairs, but not absolutely required for adaptive spontaneity.

Training, training, training is a good start, but you also have to train the right things. When I see a room full of yudansha start every session with Tai No Henko I think “hmm would have thought these folks should have this movement by now”. We start almost every class with slow any and continuous attack drills that start with simple evasion/slipping, then soft parry, then parry to pin a foot/kuzushi, no techniques applied. Getting comfortable with deflecting continuous attack without a response reduces mental urgency; not getting hit is it’s own class of techniques.

Assorted flow drills provide the context for what to do when plan A does not work and how to move to plan B, C, or D, seamlessly, mindlessly. Don’t worry all the best shihans do it, and make it look intentional. More free form practice, stepping away from simple kata and having the time and freedom to explore. Sticking drills, absorbing and redirecting drills, close movement drills…connected body drills.

I interpret the notes and letter analogies, presented above, as saying you have to walk before you run. You have to embody the principle as manifested by technique before you can forget it and have it spontaneously erupt. Each technique is merely a way point in the continuum of locking and throwing principles expressed by the adaptive body mind.

The thing that really cemented it with me, was the shift from looking for technique, to looking for kuzushi. Exploiting a defect in structure exposed by a small kuzushi, or chaining small kuzushis until something naturally presents itself allows you to steal the time clock. If uke is continually unbalanced and/or their structure degraded then you have all the time in the world to do something that is situationally appropriate, yet still organic in its evolution.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2017, 02:14 PM   #30
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 559
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post
The thing that really cemented it with me, was the shift from looking for technique, to looking for kuzushi. Exploiting a defect in structure exposed by a small kuzushi, or chaining small kuzushis until something naturally presents itself allows you to steal the time clock. If uke is continually unbalanced and/or their structure degraded then you have all the time in the world to do something that is situationally appropriate, yet still organic in its evolution.
When I finally gave up trying for techniques and merely working on making this occur is also when much became freed up for me.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2017, 02:59 PM   #31
Hilary
Dojo: Torrey Pines Aiki Kai
Location: San Diego
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 95
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
When I finally gave up trying for techniques and merely working on making this occur is also when much became freed up for me.
Is suspect this is a required transition. The next question is what else did you have to have to get there?

And to others did you experience this transition as well?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2017, 05:31 PM   #32
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,161
Japan
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Some time ago, perhaps here or in another forum, the analogy between learning aikido and another language was explored. (The analogy breaks down because there are no native speakers of aikido, but I wonder whether this matters: I am not sure.)

I have been living here for nearly 40 years and can function in the Japanese language reasonably well, certainly to the satisfaction of my Japanese neighbours, with whom I sometimes pass the time of day. (A recurring topic is the close relationship between crows and garbage.) But this proficiency requires constant care and effort: There is still a major difference with a bilingual native speaker.

One breakthrough came when I began to think in Japanese, without having to go through the process of translation. This seemed to occur naturally, in the sense that I did not consciously practice how to do it. Of course, there are various theories about how one learns a language and when I was acquiring a teaching diploma, Chomsky's theories of child language learning were popular. They have not stood the test of time.

I have been doing aikido for nearly 50 years and the later training has mainly consisted of examining carefully what the Japanese experts have been doing, the major experts here in Japan being / having been Chiba, Tada, Arikawa, Yamaguchi, Saito, and my own teacher here in Hiroshima. The training also involves learning how to see / perceive, which is perhaps similar to what St Ignatius called the 'discernment of spirits.'

A major preoccupation has been how to maintain effectiveness in the face of advancing age -- and I am happy to have the chance to test this with the teens and twenty-year-olds in the dojo.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 01:10 AM   #33
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 423
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Thank you for that story and example Prof Goldsbury. After all the hard work on related skills, learning of the technical aspects, and just getting through and immersed in a second language something just happened that was not specifically trained for. Maybe Aikido skills do have to be the same.

Hilary, I really liked your post. One point you touched on, I have also heard from some that I should move like no one is there, that Aiki body is something separate and distinct from a relationship, and that the uke should be irrelevant. I cannot reconcile this idea with finding kuzushi, which is definitely my preference. I am a nurse; my work life is very much about paying attention to the other person. I approach a number of techniques as though I am half of the equation, or that I am the artist and uke is the clay.

I assume uke not mattering is the undisturbable body idea. A posture with few openings and well conserved momentum in the direction I chose? Because this idea is the most foreign to me I assume if there is a step past kuzushi it probably involves more of this.
  Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 06:30 AM   #34
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,925
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
Hilary, I really liked your post. One point you touched on, I have also heard from some that I should move like no one is there, that Aiki body is something separate and distinct from a relationship, and that the uke should be irrelevant. I cannot reconcile this idea with finding kuzushi, which is definitely my preference.
to quote an IS personality he-who-must-not-be-named, "aiki in me before aiki in thee"

an analogy, the old top loading washing machine with the column agitator. when it's on, it moves back and forth whether there are water, clothes and/or you. However, when it's on, and you try to grab the agitator, you get pull along. it doesn't need you, but if you get into contact with it then you get yank into its orbit.

it's a bit different mindset from the standard aikido where we were taught to connect center-to-center. the above mindset is why would i want to connect to your center? like the above agitator, i don't need to connect to your center, but if you come into contact with me you will be pulled into my orbit and you are now mine. like a nice juicy steak, if you come into contact with it, you have to eat it. and you might even have to eat the cake too afterward.

sorry for went off the topic of this thread.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 09:44 AM   #35
Hilary
Dojo: Torrey Pines Aiki Kai
Location: San Diego
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 95
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Professor Goldsbury, I find the analogy fascinating, “embodiment” of a purely mental task. As an aside how was the transformation manifest? A binary clicking of the switch into a new modality, or was it more of a convex combination where both modalities were present for a period of time (I suspect the latter but that would be an assumption on my part)?

As to the observation of the masters, you have clearly enjoyed extensive hands on experience; are you referring to this or observation and mental analysis of live and/or recorded practice. Embodiment from the former being an understood methodology, whereas embodiment via visualization is something I find intriguing.

John, I am still working a lot of this through. And the one thing that seems to keep occurring, is that what I think I am talking about keep evolving as my understanding increases (and occasionally veers way off course), knowledge and understanding is a moving target. To continue a little more off thread.

Phi’s “aiki in me before aiki in thee” applies but I think there is more to the description than this. Not a correction but an inclusion. By the time one starts down the IP road (whether intrinsic or extrinsic) you typically have embodied some/most of your repertoire. Your ability to follow and move with uke would be reasonably well established and embodied.

“that I should move like no one is there,” to me, really means that focusing on the proper comportment of your body, utilizing this new movement/body paradigm, is what best facilitates embodiment of the skill. Stickiness is accomplished via body translation and internal opposing spiraling, articulated externally, and not limb flailing. One still has to at least vaguely move in the right direction, but if you do, uke is dragged along if one is doing it right. The point being “vaguely in the right direction” is governed by embodied waza experience, and at this point, is on autopilot and thus should not be a consciously monitored function, when the new movement paradigm is the actual focus. Thus, focus on what you are doing and not the interaction with uke.

Another way I am currently thinking of it is, if I am manifesting movement in all directions (or at least all the directions a human body moves in (I am not yet a sphere)) within my body (movement in stillness), then once in contact with uke my body “fills” in the direction of uke’s least resistance, automatically. Peripheral stiffness in nage overshadows auto-filling in the direction of least resistance.
  Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 02:15 PM   #36
bothhandsclapping
Dojo: Both Hands Clapping
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 72
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Isn't it more likely that true spontaneity (when realized) is a fundamental understanding of oneself that transcends all aspects of one's life - and that proper execution of Aikido techniques is just one manifestation of it? That in this case, jiyu waza and randori would not be seen as developing spontaneity, but rather as reliable validators. That from a practical standpoint, do we really need to focus on and practice everything 10,000 times in order to perform it spontaneously? (Our lives aren't that long.)

And if so, shouldn't we be trying to find the source this universal spontaneity in everything we do, using jiyu waza and randori to simply test our current understanding?

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
"The universe, aikido, the mind - both hands clapping!"
  Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 04:31 PM   #37
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,310
Japan
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Spontaneity can't be over thought.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 06:14 PM   #38
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 423
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Spontaneity can't be over thought.
Very true.

We are really talking about something more than mere spontaneity. We're talking a little more on the spontaneous creation of technique, and spontaneous useful movement. Really, more than spontaneous that probably means reflexive patterns and muscle memory.

I'm now third dan, how do I move forward and develop better movement?

Now that I teach, how do I best help to create the circumstances for development of apparently spontaneous useful movement in a student? It is a focus of study by militaries and athletes, but I don't see that being applied to Aikido so much.

IMO, there is some benefit to planning out training, and discussing training methods. Repeating kata is necessary, but something needs to happen next.
  Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 09:00 PM   #39
RonRagusa
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 761
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
Isn't it more likely that true spontaneity (when realized) is a fundamental understanding of oneself that transcends all aspects of one's life - and that proper execution of Aikido techniques is just one manifestation of it? That in this case, jiyu waza and randori would not be seen as developing spontaneity, but rather as reliable validators. That from a practical standpoint, do we really need to focus on and practice everything 10,000 times in order to perform it spontaneously? (Our lives aren't that long.)

And if so, shouldn't we be trying to find the source this universal spontaneity in everything we do, using jiyu waza and randori to simply test our current understanding?
Spontaneity of technique is manifest when one is in the moment, looking neither forward or backward. Aikido training fosters unification of mind and body in the moment. Technique emerges naturally as a function of the interaction between uke and nage and is not imposed by one upon the other.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old Today, 12:06 AM   #40
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 423
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
Isn't it more likely that true spontaneity (when realized) is a fundamental understanding of oneself that transcends all aspects of one's life - and that proper execution of Aikido techniques is just one manifestation of it? That in this case, jiyu waza and randori would not be seen as developing spontaneity, but rather as reliable validators. That from a practical standpoint, do we really need to focus on and practice everything 10,000 times in order to perform it spontaneously? (Our lives aren't that long.)

And if so, shouldn't we be trying to find the source this universal spontaneity in everything we do, using jiyu waza and randori to simply test our current understanding?
Agree that the jiyuwaza and randori display rather than develop abilities, especially if it is not done often as a practice.

All aspects of my life - well, a calm state of mind and a well coordinated strong and flexible body certainly carry into many aspects of my life. It does create options and reduces vulnerabilities. Emotional freedom of expression, probably spills over.

I submit this is not just about spontaneity but useful action. As I enter my 30th year as a nurse, there are abilities that do come very naturally. Some mechanical skills like giving an injection, I am comfortable enough that I can be talking and assessing while doing the majority of the procedure. All good.

But, "All areas" implies competance and comfort with skills I haven't developed or displaying knowledge that was never acquired. Every year, I need to learn new skills, new software, new procedures. I am in a better place to acquire the new, and I might have fewer total skills than a new nursing student,and it can feel more natural more quickly. There is still a different quality.

On the other hand, when my self-employed wife has several life challenges and projects on the go, she does call it "randori." Maybe that is what you mean?
  Reply With Quote
Old Today, 01:35 AM   #41
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,161
Japan
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post
As to the observation of the masters, you have clearly enjoyed extensive hands on experience; are you referring to this or observation and mental analysis of live and/or recorded practice. Embodiment from the former being an understood methodology, whereas embodiment via visualization is something I find intriguing.
Hello,

When I lived in London, I used to train every class (an uchi-deshi, without the uchi), and took uke very often. I was one of the default ukes and so got to know how the instructors executed the waza (their take on the 'architecture', if you like) and also what the instructors expected -- and did not expect -- from me, as uke. A large part of this is something like what G E M Anscombe calls 'knowledge without observation.'

In Japan I was also uke for visiting shihans, but as I rose though the dan ranks this happened less often, probably due to increasing age and seniority. However I was always uke for Seigo Yamaguchi and our local shihan regarded him as the Aikikai's master technician. His seminars were always videotaped and we went through the tapes afterwards and did the waza again, with the regular yudansha brainstorming as we went along. I remember a memorable session where we spent the whole class -- three hours -- analyzing his take on just one waza, namely, irimi-nage.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old Today, 06:49 AM   #42
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 775
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
....
One breakthrough came when I began to think in Japanese, without having to go through the process of translation. This seemed to occur naturally, in the sense that I did not consciously practice how to do it. Of course, there are various theories about how one learns a language and when I was acquiring a teaching diploma, Chomsky's theories of child language learning were popular. They have not stood the test of time.
...
Sounds like the idea of interpreted vs. compiled mode cognitive scientists borrowed from computer scientists. E.g :https://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/p...-cogsci-81.pdf

  Reply With Quote
Old Today, 12:40 PM   #43
bothhandsclapping
Dojo: Both Hands Clapping
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 72
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Spontaneity of technique is manifest when one is in the moment, looking neither forward or backward. Aikido training fosters unification of mind and body in the moment. Technique emerges naturally as a function of the interaction between uke and nage and is not imposed by one upon the other.

Ron
Very well said, and I think we can perhaps add some quantifiable terms -

Spontaneity of technique are those that demonstrate:
  1. Immediacy
  2. Appropriateness, and
  3. Naturalness

That if any one of these elements is missing, we are not, in fact, observing spontaneity.

And this is my biggest beef in associating jiyu waza with spontaneity. In jiyu waza it is (nearly) impossible to make the argument for true immediacy. While attacks are understandably done at less than full speed (heck, we've all got day jobs and families), the mind is still working at full tilt. And you can never prove that nage's response is truly due to uke's action and not to nage's notion of the proper response.

These are entirely different animals, and because thinking is so pervasive, most of us don't fully appreciate that it is indeed still happening - even in jiyu waza. And where there is thinking, there is no immediacy. No immediacy, no spontaneity.

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
"The universe, aikido, the mind - both hands clapping!"
  Reply With Quote
Old Today, 03:03 PM   #44
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,161
Japan
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Sounds like the idea of interpreted vs. compiled mode cognitive scientists borrowed from computer scientists. E.g :https://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/p...-cogsci-81.pdf
Aaron S. was one of my teachers at Sussex, back in the sixties. I did philosophy and he was at the behaviourist end of the spectrum exhibited by philosophy teachers there. This was also the time when Chomsky's child-language-learning theories enjoyed some sort of vogue. When I was doing a course for a diploma in Teaching English as a Foreign Language (important for poor Ph.D. students seeking part-time jobs), theories of how acquiring a native language differed from learning a foreign language were popular and my tutor for the EFL course thought that Chomsky's theories could be applied to EFL. I did not think so.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old Today, 05:40 PM   #45
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,603
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
And this is my biggest beef in associating jiyu waza with spontaneity. In jiyu waza it is (nearly) impossible to make the argument for true immediacy. While attacks are understandably done at less than full speed (heck, we've all got day jobs and families), the mind is still working at full tilt. And you can never prove that nage's response is truly due to uke's action and not to nage's notion of the proper response.

These are entirely different animals, and because thinking is so pervasive, most of us don't fully appreciate that it is indeed still happening - even in jiyu waza. And where there is thinking, there is no immediacy. No immediacy, no spontaneity.
I have tried for some years now to emphasizie "act first, then think," The guidance for initiating movement is left to the monkey-brain to initiate in pure imitation-- as it does so well -- and so quickly, and then follow with some manner of conformed waza.

In a class, once we have worked out the kinks on a basic body movement and then a set of techniques that can go with it (depending on the happenstance of the point of engagement), then I strongly emphasize to simply move with the movement we have worked with, and to think nothing at the initiation except to let yourself copy what is being seen. There is sound reason for this.

Basically, the deep imitative motor response has to be actively inhibited by the "higher" brain motor centers -- so if one simply focuses thought on NOT inhibiting the imitative motor cascade that is already ongoing-- then the ready response is already "processed and loaded" so to speak, and voluntary motor delays are minimized and held off until the action has already begun. Then like a surfer you ride the shape of the break.

The prevalence of imitative or complementary action elements in the commencement of canonical waza is quite striking -- and the Doka and interviews in which O Sensei' speaks to his subjective state in his "aiki enlightenment" episodes are certainly consistent with it.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old Today, 05:47 PM   #46
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,603
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

... and for those who share my obsessive study tendencies, enjoy; and for those who do not - my apologies:

Neurons in primary motor cortex engaged during action observation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20074212/

The role of inhibition in action observation treatment http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...12.04356.x/pdf

Brain regions with mirror properties: a meta-analysis of 125 human fMRI studies. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21782846/

M1 Corticospinal Mirror Neurons and Their Role in Movement Suppression during Action Observation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3566480/

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (0 members and 4 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Greater and Lesser Problem R.A. Robertson Columns 7 01-05-2010 12:50 AM
Slight Ukemi problem Marko Ilic General 20 12-03-2008 12:16 AM
Irimi/too slow problem Esaemann Techniques 33 12-06-2007 07:35 AM
Account problem NixNa Announcements & Feedback 2 01-15-2007 11:29 AM
jiyu waza... question Jeff Tibbetts Techniques 24 10-28-2003 12:20 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:25 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate