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Old 10-03-2004, 12:30 AM   #1
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Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

AikiWeb Poll for the week of October 3, 2004:

Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.
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Old 10-03-2004, 03:05 AM   #2
Clayton Drescher
 
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Just warmup stretching causes a little bit of pain. You gain confidence once you know what pain might be coming with a technique and then knowing you can overcome it. You give a more committed attack knowing that you can take whatever the person dishes out.

P.S.---this applies to all techniques except nikyo ura and sankyo.....those just hurt for no good reason ;-)
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Old 10-03-2004, 03:16 AM   #3
deepsoup
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Discomfort, yes. Pain, no.
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Old 10-03-2004, 06:34 AM   #4
Tom Kaluzynski
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

That is a good question. There is physical pain when you first start, your muscles get achy. There is physical pain sometimes when you are learning a technique, if for example you fall incorrectly. So I would say, yes it is necessary. It also depends on you. Some people are really stiff and hard, so they will feel more pain, also everyone has a different level of pain threshold.
It's like life, there's pain. So be creative with it. That being said, if something feels really "wrong" that's not creative pain. I'm not a masochist or anything; it's just there is pain in learning, and in aikido it manifests on a physical level sometimes.
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Old 10-03-2004, 07:26 AM   #5
Jonathan Thielen
 
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

I think that pain can be an excellent "teacher"...for myself, I know that (especially with respect to rolls and falls) if it hurts, I've probably done something wrong, and need to look for ways to soften/round myself out.
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Old 10-03-2004, 09:16 AM   #6
SeiserL
 
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

IMHO, never ignore or endure physical pain. There are a lot of us who learned to overcome pain only to be overcome ourselves by enduring chronic overuse injuries that are permanent.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 10-03-2004, 03:32 PM   #7
Goetz Taubert
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

In my opinion the source of pain until now in the most replys is thought to be external or caused by accident.

I am familiar with a kind of pain that derives from the strive for correct posture/gesture, relaxation against muscular tension i.e. while trying to get softer or to move unwillingly. Such kind of pain seems to be very helpfull to incorporate aiki priciples or - step by step - more effective posture/gesture.
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Old 10-03-2004, 03:58 PM   #8
Janet Rosen
 
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

"Experiencing" some pain comes with the territory in aikido, as in any physical exercise. "Putting up with" unnecessary infliction of pain by others is not necessary.

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-03-2004, 07:39 PM   #9
maikerus
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Pain might not be required to learn Aikido, but it certainly speeds up the process.

Everything from making your breakfalls better (so they don't hurt) to understanding what direction to move in and when is facilitated by pain. Learning Aikido without pain would be a little like learning to juggle without ever dropping a ball. Difficult, unlikely, drawn out and probably unrealistic.

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 10-03-2004, 08:08 PM   #10
maikerus
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Another thought...

Pushing through the pain of sore muscles from general training, pushing the pain of exhaustion after an hour and a half of hajime training or pushing through the pain of yonkajo applied against the same bruise again and again are all ways of "building character" or "developing spirit".

It's probably more accurate to say successfully going through the above are ways of showing your character or showing your spirit rather than developing it. In any event, physical pain in any prolonged, difficult and physical training is to be expected.

I am not advocating training while injured with a joint or some other debilitating injury, but training through exhaustion (physical and/or mental) and with muscle soreness is one way of gaining self-confidence.

I wonder how many people out there have ever been too tired/sore to go to class, but because of whatever reason they went, trained and came through that pain feeling better and understanding more than before. I know I have.

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 10-03-2004, 11:04 PM   #11
xuzen
 
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:

I wonder how many people out there have ever been too tired/sore to go to class, but because of whatever reason they went, trained and came through that pain feeling better and understanding more than before. I know I have.
Yeah me two, err I mean me too.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 10-03-2004, 11:41 PM   #12
MaryKaye
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Without a certain dogged willingness to come back to class day after day despite bruises on my shoulders, I would never have learned to forward roll. I was *awful* at this, and it took me five months. My family looked at the bruises and wondered what on earth I'd gotten myself into. But I enjoy the skill tremendously now that I have it, and I'm glad I decided it was an acceptable level of pain.

That said, I left my previous martial art because it seemed to value pain in and of itself, as a test of character, rather than regarding it as a sign of something that needs improvement (like my dratted rolls). This was too grim for me. I see enduring pain as a step toward doing things in a way that doesn't hurt, not a destination in itself.

Mary Kaye
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Old 10-04-2004, 02:06 AM   #13
Ebyan Alvarez-Buylla
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Be grateful even for hardship, setbacks, and bad people. Dealing with such obstacles is an essential part of training in Aikido.

—Morihei Ueshiba
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Old 10-04-2004, 03:51 AM   #14
happysod
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

[insert quote here without any accompanying text to say "I agree/disagree" with this statement and/or sentence to show understanding of said quote]

Pain: tricky one. Some people I've trained with have had to experience pain as far as they were concerned to learn a technique while I would consider them complete and utter wimps as the "severe pain" was akin to that from a paper cut - perception matters and learning to deal with a greater degree of pain while maintaining a healthy respect for your body is for me an essential part of any serious martial art. So I'd come down on the side of yes
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Old 10-04-2004, 09:01 AM   #15
kironin
 
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Enduring pain ? No.

Experiencing pain temporarily or discomfort ? Yes.

pain that lasts means damage is being done.

Last edited by kironin : 10-04-2004 at 09:04 AM.

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Old 10-05-2004, 03:56 AM   #16
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

i beleive that when we're training the most importaqnt thing is not to harm ourselves nor our partner, so physical pain varies from "simple pain to reach damage", in other words its not necessary to concentrate on hurting ourselves or our partners to endure pain. through years of training every person will pass in a phase that he feels pain and sure if that person is devoted to his training will overcome the pain.
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Old 10-05-2004, 04:24 AM   #17
ruthmc
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

There's pain and then there's pain.... everyone experiences pain differently, so too much for one may be nothing to another. It's too subjective to quantify.

As to whether it is necessary to endure physical pain to get better at Aikido, no, I don't believe it is. Physical pain can be a great barrier to learning. Mental pain, OTOH, I think is necessary for progress. Until your ego has been sorted out you're not going to improve - he who thinks he knows it all cannot learn.

Ruth
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Old 10-05-2004, 06:17 AM   #18
happysod
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Quote:
everyone experiences pain differently
nitpick time again - everyone experiences pain the same, it's how you react that differs.

OK, Craig & Ruth, damn you for noticing the "enduring" phrase which I missed. Agreed, prolonged exposure to pain shouldn't be necessary, but temporary's good for the soul - just remember 'tis better to give than receive...

Ruth, can you give me an example of pain=barrier? The only one that I can think of for people who actually remain within aikido is ukemi-fear. If someone is unable to accept any pain (and they exist in strangely large numbers) they don't seem to continue to practice, so I wouldn't include them in the poll...

(mental pain - isn't that the true reason behind beer waza?)
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Old 10-05-2004, 07:17 AM   #19
JMCavazos
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

I think there is a difference between pain and injury.

Pain leads to compliance. Injury leads to the kinds of maladays that are explained above. You need to know the difference in the pain of a pin vs hurting because of an injury.

What hooked me on aikido was that first nikyo. Whew, what pain and no injury!!!! I just had to learn how to do that. After a while I learned the difference between making it hurt and learning about control. Now, I focus more on control than making it hurt. But pain is what makes believers out of people that think its a dance.
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Old 10-05-2004, 09:11 AM   #20
kironin
 
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
nitpick time again - everyone experiences pain the same, it's how you react that differs.
more nitpick'n

actually it's more complex than this. how you react to pain affects your experience of pain. It's a feedback loop. My emotional state of mind affects my experience of pain at any given moment.

one also needs to distinguish between nociceptive pain and neuropathic pain (http://www.helpforpain.com/arch2000dec.htm)

In physical activity we are mostly talking about the part of our nervous system that is activated in response to tissue irritation, impending injury, or actual injury. How variable and subjective is the threshold to our own conditioning and state of mind is a big question. What neuropahtic tendencies might affect our experience compared to others is important also.

For improvement, coming to understand the nature of pain and being open to what you own body is telling you is more important I think than somehow simply enduring pain.

Certainly as I get older, I feel like I have to back off sometimes because something doesn't quite feel right. It's tough because the competitive athlete in me that assumes I am invincible is always there urging to push.
I am still nursing some kind of muscle tear/strain in my chest from the last time I gave in to that. Taking more than an hour of ukem for one of my 16 year old students who is getting the hang of really laying it on - I ignored an unusual feeling of pain at one point and kept going -- not too smart.
Now I have to be careful just to stay in the game and not make it worse.

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Old 10-05-2004, 10:07 AM   #21
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
Another thought...

I wonder how many people out there have ever been too tired/sore to go to class, but because of whatever reason they went, trained and came through that pain feeling better and understanding more than before. I know I have.
Here's one! Yep, sounds like yoshinkan through and through...
Osu!
Ron

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Old 10-05-2004, 10:36 AM   #22
ruthmc
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
nitpick time again - everyone experiences pain the same, it's how you react that differs.
Not really. It's down to how many chemical pain messages get through to your brain, and this can be altered, otherwise a large number of "recreational" drugs wouldn't be so popular.. People's natural pain perception really does vary between individuals. (/counter-nitpick)

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
Ruth, can you give me an example of pain=barrier?
Yes. Any time you are attempting to engage in any activity / learning exercise and all you can think of is how much your back / wrist / knee / head is hurting! You certainly won't be taking much else on board.

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
(mental pain - isn't that the true reason behind beer waza?)
Yep. And, to a certain extent, physical pain

Ruth
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Old 10-05-2004, 10:51 AM   #23
happysod
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Aah, Craig & Ruth, you can tell educashunal backgrounds like - my nitpick was on how pain is transmitted (engineer) which doesn't change person to person. Their receptiveness and translation of the signals involved - a different matter (and Ruth, changing perception through drugs in an argument is just plain cheating).

Pain = barrier: I'd have to disagree with your example (if I'm reading you right) as the type of pain you're mentioning is continuous rather than a barrier through pain from a specific technique? I have my own set of "always hurty" bits (due to non-aikido related injuries he hastily adds) and with this type of pain you either learn to ignore for a particular physical activity or you no longer do that activity. Again, can't see the latter type of person doing many types of physical activity, rather than ma specific.

Agree on beer!
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Old 10-05-2004, 10:57 AM   #24
giriasis
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

I voted "no" because I don't think that enduring pain is necessary in order to improve your aikido.

Also, at the time I voted I was think more of pain that has resulted from an injury, i.e. the sharp pain that you're body says, "stop doing this stupid."

But then again, we do experience pain when practicing nikkyo, kotegaeshi, and doing awkward breakfalls. I still get up and move on. But is it really necessary to endure pain as a result of these to improve my aikido? "Necessary" meaning as an absolute that one "must" endure? No. Is it a part of aikido that some find helpful if it doesn't lead to serious injury? Yes.

Last edited by giriasis : 10-05-2004 at 11:00 AM.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 10-05-2004, 11:08 AM   #25
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Poll: Is enduring physical pain necessary in getting better at aikido?

Ok, how many aikidoka does it take to come up with a deffintion for pain???

Ron Tisdale
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