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Old 01-08-2019, 09:53 AM   #1
Michael Boulet
Location: Campbell River, BC
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Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

Apart from being an aikidoist (I generally use "aikidoka", but some object that that term should be reserved for those at a very high level or for whom it is a full-time career... but that is for another forum) I am also a mediator, arbitrator, and lawyer, and I teach conflict management skills.

For several years now I have been exploring the use of aikido concepts and basic movements in my teaching and I am interested in hearing about others who might be doing something similar and what your experiences have been.

Recently I have been expanding this into the realm of intimacy. It is fascinating how the roles of Uke and Nage parallel the roles of what is sometimes referred to as masculine and feminine energy - the masculine (Nage) being required to take charge and lead Uke, whilst being fully aware of, and responsive to, what uke is doing and where she is at, and being responsible to care for and protect her in the process. It is vitally important that Uke trusts Nage and feels safe in order that Uke can fulfill her role of being fully open to Nage, following his lead and achieving that delicate balance of being an active and energetic participant, but giving up her center and allowing Nage to take her (balance) at the appropriate moment.

I would love to hear what others think and am happy to share my own thoughts and insights as well.

If you are interested in these topics, but prefer not to post in a public forum, I can be reached at michael@conflictmanagementhelp.com

Thanks for your interest,
Mike
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:05 PM   #2
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

Michael,

I don't really see any gender aspect of the roles of nage and uke. Assuming that both individuals are of the same level of skill, then their roles are neutral in my opinion. When one student is much more experienced than the other, then their roles become matters of leadership. A senior nage should try his or her best to perform the technique properly, while a senior uke should try his or her best to help the kohai learn how to perform the technique.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:43 PM   #3
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

No sure why you would assign those roles to each gender. Nage leads and uke follow no matter what gender they are. It is important to be able to do both.

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Old 01-10-2019, 05:52 PM   #4
shizentai
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

14 years ago Ross Robertson wrote an article on this site regarding this topic, which I found quite creepy.

Enjoy.

http://www.aikiweb.com/columns/rrobertson/2005_02.html
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:17 AM   #5
GMaroda
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

The concept of Masculine/Feminine energy is an old esoteric concept used in cultures around the world. Unfortunately, that particular model can be less than useful in a modern discussion as it tends to be used far too literally by many people (both proponents and opponents.)

While I like some of the ideas the OP proposes, I think using a gendered model is just not very useful outside of historical discussions.

Heck, if one wanted to get rid of gender terms but still remain creepy, a "dominant/submissive" model in the context of BDSM would also work. *eep!*

But frankly, I'd rather use a model that isn't going to set off peoples' alarm bells (including my own!)
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:49 AM   #6
lbb
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

In a world without oppressive gender roles (and, all too often, laws reinforcing them), this might be a non-charged discussion. But then, in such a world, it seems doubtful that anyone would ever see things in such terms.
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Old 01-15-2019, 05:32 PM   #7
shizentai
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
In a world without oppressive gender roles (and, all too often, laws reinforcing them), this might be a non-charged discussion. But then, in such a world, it seems doubtful that anyone would ever see things in such terms.
Bringing in a narrative about "oppressive gender roles" in the First World, will indeed reslt in a charged discussion.
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Old 01-16-2019, 07:55 AM   #8
lbb
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
Bringing in a narrative about "oppressive gender roles" in the First World, will indeed reslt in a charged discussion.
Well, you're the one who posited "male" and "female" characteristics of nage and uke. Don't be disingenuous and pretend that that has no meaning apart from simple biology.
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Old 01-16-2019, 12:53 PM   #9
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

Uh Mary, no he didn't. It was someone else.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 01-17-2019, 07:28 AM   #10
lbb
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

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Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Uh Mary, no he didn't. It was someone else.
True dat. But, since that was the way the whole discussion was framed from the get-go...come on now.
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Old 01-17-2019, 09:39 AM   #11
shizentai
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

When bringing up the abstract concepts of - and I quote - "masculine and feminine energy", yin and yang, inexplicably triggers you into bringing up "oppression", don't shift blame on someone else for your irrational outburst.
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:42 AM   #12
GMaroda
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
When bringing up the abstract concepts of - and I quote - "masculine and feminine energy", yin and yang, inexplicably triggers you into bringing up "oppression", don't shift blame on someone else for your irrational outburst.
And yet here you are attributing an "irrational outburst" to someone quite rightly bringing up archaic gender values when someone mentions something using archaic gender values.

Which itself is an archaic gender value. Women get to be "irrational" and "hysterical". Men get to be "logical".

So thank you for proving her point for her.
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Old 01-21-2019, 09:47 AM   #13
shizentai
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

Quote:
Greg Maroda wrote: View Post
And yet here you are attributing an "irrational outburst" to someone quite rightly bringing up archaic gender values when someone mentions something using archaic gender values.

Which itself is an archaic gender value. Women get to be "irrational" and "hysterical". Men get to be "logical".

So thank you for proving her point for her.
"Feminine and masculine" are not gender values, they're abstract concepts. There can be feminine men and masculine women. So, it is YOUR choice to assign these abstract descriptors to specific stereotypes, and YOUR assumptions are the ones being made.

I judge people by what they say and do, not by their external markers. I've known women who are far more logical and less emotional than me. In this case she's being irrational, and now you're being hysterical about me pointing it out. Hope that evens out the "gender balance" for you. (giant eyeroll)

Last edited by shizentai : 01-21-2019 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 01-22-2019, 05:54 AM   #14
GMaroda
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
"Feminine and masculine" are not gender values, they're abstract concepts. There can be feminine men and masculine women. So, it is YOUR choice to assign these abstract descriptors to specific stereotypes, and YOUR assumptions are the ones being made.

I judge people by what they say and do, not by their external markers. I've known women who are far more logical and less emotional than me. In this case she's being irrational, and now you're being hysterical about me pointing it out. Hope that evens out the "gender balance" for you. (giant eyeroll)
Sure, blame me for the cultural gender roles you're assigning and then blaming me for. If you're not going to argue in good faith and without insults, you're not worth arguing with at all.
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Old 01-22-2019, 07:21 AM   #15
lbb
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

Yeah, I've seen this movie before (it's called "Mansplaining That Oppressive Gender Roles Is Not A Thing"). Don't need to see it again.
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:40 AM   #16
shizentai
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Re: Using Aikido to teach Communication & Intimacy skills **WARNING: This Thread may involve Adult Concepts, but please still keep posts non-explicit**

Quote:
Greg Maroda wrote: View Post
Sure, blame me for the cultural gender roles you're assigning and then blaming me for. If you're not going to argue in good faith and without insults, you're not worth arguing with at all.
>OP makes a post about masculine and feminine energy in Aikido, first establishing these terms, and then using "him" and "her" as shorthand to elaborate on the concept
>female comes in and makes a bad faith post about it, throwing a fit about "oppression", while the thread had absolutely nothing to do with any oppression, and was an innocent query about energy
>I point out that she's being irrational
>male white knight barges in to protect the female, writes another post in bad faith, strawmanning the entire thread and accusing me of sexism (the irony is palpable)
>gets called out on it
>complains about "insults" when I roll my eyes at him
>female comes back in and doubles up on how she's been "oppressed" in this thread

The terms to describe both of your behaviors would be "performative" and "virtue signaling". Don't make me turn this car around.
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