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Old 01-18-2009, 08:29 PM   #151
CNYMike
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Keith Miklas wrote: View Post
A friend of mine boxed for the army. I've been studying Aikido for about a month and so I asked him to friendly-spar for a couple of minutes to show him what I'd learned.

Basically, I got owned. I never came close to blending with his jabs. I finally had to tell him to slow his attacks down, so that I could demonstrate Ikkyo and Sankyo.

His comments:
1. It's not possible to catch/blend with his punches.
2. He's going to throw a combination, so even if I try I'm probably going to get hit (this, too, he demonstrated with a gentle right to my floating rib when I tried for a sankyo).
3. He would never over-extend himself with a "clean attack" like we use in class.
4. All this has been settled with the Gracies in Brazilian Ju Jitsu. Back in the '70's they invited people from all different schools to come down and fight it out. What "came out in the wash" was these three positions, and most effective related styles:
a. STANDING SEPARATE: boxing; kick-boxing
b. GRAPPLING: Muy-Thai; Wrestling
c. GROUND: Wrestling; Ju Jitsu

In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.
When I started training in karate in 1985, I sparred with my best friend and some of his buddies, all of whom had some training and a lot of street experience. They screwed me up with high fakes and then firing kicks -- mostly side kicks to the knees. The fakes worked and I had never trained against low kicks, and over the following years, no one I trained under in Aikido or Karate had an aswer other than "move the knee." But I remembered what they did and learned to watch for them. When I sparred with another of Steve's buddies in 1986, I responded to his low kicks by blocking with my lead leg. (I had also dropped into cat stance, but I didn't know it at the time -- I'd just thought of bending my knees.)

My points are:

1. As knowlegeable as your instructors are -- give credit where it's due! -- they won't know everything. Some things you will have to dope out on your own, but that is ok, and your ability to do that will show your progress.

2. When such experiences happened, try not to get upset or discouraged (difficult, I know!) but instead file away the things that confounded you. Down the road in a similar situation, you'll know what to expect and if you don't have a list of what to try, you may come up with a response that works. The leg blocks I mentioned were pure reflex at the time, but that's because I knew those low kicks might be coming. With a boxer, you already know the jab's hard to snag and the other hand is coming, so you will know to expect that from now on.

Keep at it and don't let it get to you. Winners never quit and quitters never win.

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 01-19-2009, 07:31 AM   #152
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
While this is somewhat true, it is not most often used as a way out for instructors who themselves do not know (or do not like) the answer to new students questions.
Meh. "Most often"? You mean "in my experience, most often.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Yes, there are questions that are possible for a new student to ask that will have answers that may be 'above their head'. I feel that that questions of a physical nature are always explainable in terms anyone can test and understand.
Sorry to disagree, Don, but that's not even close to true. I just spent the weekend teaching a whole pile of 4- to 6-year-olds how to ski. The mechanics of skiing can be explained in a variety of ways, ranging from complex explanations that require an understanding of physics and materials science, to very simple explanations of body movement; however, very few of those explanations can be understood by a 4- to 6-year-old. Yet there I was, teaching a group of kids how to do some fairly advanced skiing. I did not do so by explaining anything. Had I been teaching adults, I would have done a little more explaining...but really not that much. And guess what? It would have worked out fine.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
On top of this, you do not have to be a dancer to know good dancing. People with good critical thinking and logic skills are going to be able to come up with good questions that deserve answers. If you can not or will not answer them, then you are a poor teacher.
Even though most people don't have "good critical thinking and logic skills"? Maybe you do, but what about the rest? Is aikido only for the intellectual elite? Can you teach someone who doesn't know what the words "left" and "right" mean? I can -- I do it all the time. But I can't do it with verbage that my students won't understand.
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:55 AM   #153
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Meh. "Most often"? You mean "in my experience, most often.
No, I mean in the experience of the very large sampling of people I have spoken to around the world, and myself. I only generalize when I feel I have enough of a sampling to generalize. Most instructors do not have any experience with any actual conflict with people. If you think about it, it makes sense. The majority of martial arts on the planet do not spar, and preach non-violence. So how could their instructors have any practice experience fighting? Are you going to trust a man who has fought a boxer or a man who's teachers teachers teachers teacher may have fought a boxer? Ever play Chinese telephone with a room of adults?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Sorry to disagree, Don, but that's not even close to true. I just spent the weekend teaching a whole pile of 4- to 6-year-olds how to ski. The mechanics of skiing can be explained in a variety of ways, ranging from complex explanations that require an understanding of physics and materials science, to very simple explanations of body movement; however, very few of those explanations can be understood by a 4- to 6-year-old. Yet there I was, teaching a group of kids how to do some fairly advanced skiing. I did not do so by explaining anything. Had I been teaching adults, I would have done a little more explaining...but really not that much. And guess what? It would have worked out fine.
Did you teach them how to stop? Or did you just go down a hill and stop and then expect them to know how to stop? I bet you said something like "To stop you need to move your ski's like this". That is an explanation. If a kid would of asked "Why does moving your ski's like that slow you down?" Would you of responded with "You are too new to comprehend why this works, ski for 10 years then ask me."? Or would you explain it to him? Do you really feel the child would never understand? Explaining how something works in a way someone can understand is easy, even in martial arts. Using tests to demonstrate is even easier.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Even though most people don't have "good critical thinking and logic skills"? Maybe you do, but what about the rest? Is aikido only for the intellectual elite? Can you teach someone who doesn't know what the words "left" and "right" mean? I can -- I do it all the time. But I can't do it with verbage that my students won't understand.
Is it easier to teach someone who doesn't understand right and left then it is to explain right and left? Martial arts are not rocket science! You can only move your body in so many ways and all of it has real physical easy to explain or demonstrate reasons why. Can anyone give me one aikido movement that would be complicated to explain why you do it to a person of reasonable intelligence?

You don't see this in judo, boxing, bjj, tkd, mauy thai, wrestling or any other art that has a sports background. If a student asks why you grip this way, or put your hands this way, etc we have clear concise ways of explaining this and even clearer ways of demonstrating why.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-19-2009, 01:56 PM   #154
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
No, I mean in the experience of the very large sampling of people I have spoken to around the world, and myself. I only generalize when I feel I have enough of a sampling to generalize.
Whatever. If you won't admit to the limits of your subjective experience, I'm not going to belabor the point.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Did you teach them how to stop? Or did you just go down a hill and stop and then expect them to know how to stop? I bet you said something like "To stop you need to move your ski's like this". That is an explanation.
What you're doing now is called "moving the goalposts". Let's look at your prior statement:

Quote:
Yes, there are questions that are possible for a new student to ask that will have answers that may be 'above their head'. I feel that that questions of a physical nature are always explainable in terms anyone can test and understand.
Like how does a shaped ski turn? I doubt there's a six-year-old out there who would understand the explanation. For that matter, a lot of adults wouldn't either. And it's a cheap copout to say, "Oh, well, that's because you're incompetent! If you were any good as an instructor, you could find a way to explain it!"

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
If a kid would of asked "Why does moving your ski's like that slow you down?" Would you of responded with "You are too new to comprehend why this works, ski for 10 years then ask me."? Or would you explain it to him? Do you really feel the child would never understand?
Very poor choice of example. The mechanics of stopping on skis are pretty simple, and though you'd have to oversimplify them some, you could explain them to a kid in a way that the kid can understand -- not, mind you, that any of the hundreds of kids I've taught has ever asked. There isn't much else in skiing that's that simple, however, and there are plenty of explanations a 4- to 6-year-old wouldn't understand, yes. Why is that hard to accept?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Explaining how something works in a way someone can understand is easy, even in martial arts.
That is both untrue and, frankly, insulting.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Is it easier to teach someone who doesn't understand right and left then it is to explain right and left?
Irrelevant. Why the digression?
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:26 AM   #155
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

I typed out a long post and accidentally pressed a button and lost it.

So rather then go back into to all that, here was the meat.

Why is my question irrelevant? Because it proves my point? People are easier to teach if you can explain concepts to them. Which brings me to the last point which you skipped in my post.

Martial arts are not rocket science! You can only move your body in so many ways and all of it has real physical easy to explain or demonstrate reasons why. Can anyone give me one aikido movement that would be complicated to explain why you do it to a person of reasonable intelligence?

You don't see this in judo, boxing, bjj, tkd, mauy thai, wrestling or any other art that has a sports background. If a student asks why you grip this way, or put your hands this way, etc we have clear concise ways of explaining this and even clearer ways of demonstrating why.

Is aikido so complicated and refined that it requires a phd to understand and sport arts so simplistic anyone with half a brain can get it? Or is it that aikido instructors either don't truly know the answer themselves, or more likely, know the answer is not what the student wants to hear?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:31 PM   #156
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Hey Don,

As you know, I definitely agree with you on teaching the basics. There are only so many ways to move and I believe that in many respects aikido methodology way over complicates the basics to the point of confusion to beginners.

Don Wrote:

"Can anyone give me one aikido movement that would be complicated to explain why you do it to a person of reasonable intelligence?:"

Actually I think at the actual "advance" level of aikido, which ironically what I think Aikido is all about it is somewhat complicated to "explain".

When you start applying force balanced in several different planes or vectors...a loading force with a moving forward force, with a downward force, and a retreating force...it can become like patting our stomach and rubbing your head.

And that is hard for me to understand, explain, and to do.

I do agree though that what we most often practice in aikido, which I would call basic Jiu-Jitsu/Judo gets passed off as being something "special" and there are alot of folks out there that are teaching it that simply do not have the teaching skills to communicate the basic, macro martial movements that are really common to all good martial systems.

However, I don't throw that in the same category as "aiki".

Then there is the whole timing thing...

you know as a student of judo and BJJ that timing is almost everything!

You cannot really teach timing very well, it just requires lots and lots of really robust and tactically sound randori.

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Old 01-20-2009, 01:35 PM   #157
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Why is my question irrelevant? Because it proves my point? People are easier to teach if you can explain concepts to them.
You typed, "Is it easier to teach someone who doesn't understand right and left then it is to explain right and left?", which struck me as a bizarre rhetorical question. I still don't understand the point of it.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Which brings me to the last point which you skipped in my post.

Martial arts are not rocket science! You can only move your body in so many ways and all of it has real physical easy to explain or demonstrate reasons why. Can anyone give me one aikido movement that would be complicated to explain why you do it to a person of reasonable intelligence?[
Don, you're just making sweeping assertions, whereas I have real-life experience in the limitations of children's ability to absorb explanations about why something works. Do you have comparable experience in teaching children aikido? If so, can you provide an example of such a conceptual explanation that you have used and found to consistently work with children (and of what age range)?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Is aikido so complicated and refined that it requires a phd to understand and sport arts so simplistic anyone with half a brain can get it? Or is it that aikido instructors either don't truly know the answer themselves, or more likely, know the answer is not what the student wants to hear?
Or is it that analytical learning styles are in the minority when it comes to learning physical skills, and that more people use the strategies of doing, feeling and watching to a much greater extent?
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:33 PM   #158
Aikibu
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Or is it that analytical learning styles are in the minority when it comes to learning physical skills, and that more people use the strategies of doing, feeling and watching to a much greater extent?
Agreed...You would "think" this question is moot.

William Hazen
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:45 PM   #159
Justin Azevedo
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

I haven't read the entire thread.

But you know, I don't think I'd tell someone to throw a full speed punch at me and then try to show them ikkyo or sankyo (come to think of it, after almost 3 years of Aikido training, I'm still not sure enough of my sankyo to try and demonstrate it with full resistance). When I show waza to friends and family that don't train Aikido, I ask them for a slow, stylized attack in order to show them the mechanics. Otherwise, I'd either fail at what I was trying to do, break the living room lamp, or end up hurting someone. And it's important to note that what I'm trying to do is show them how the waza works. Not prove how awesome my Aikido is. If someone feels that my Aikido isn't "real" because I'm not letting them throw jabs at me for no reason... well, that's their opinion, I suppose.

In all the sparring situations I've been in, Aikido has helped me demonstrate how to get out of the way. As in, forcing people to overextend, figuring out how to circle around/get off the main line of attack, and using the least amount of energy possible to shift the attacker from a place of strength to a place of vulnerability. A place where an experienced Aikidoist could perform a flawless, awe-inspiring iriminage, for example. Or where someone with a month of krav maga training could counter a punch with an elbow to the nose. Or where I could more easily leave the living room/bar/dark alley without getting hurt.

Just food for thought.

Last edited by Justin Azevedo : 01-21-2009 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 01-22-2009, 01:00 AM   #160
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

I read this much of your post and stopped.

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Keith Miklas wrote: View Post
A friend of mine boxed for the army. I've been studying Aikido for about a month
Guess why? I'm sure someone else has already pointed it out.

This reminds me of police officers and corrections officers/jail guards who take 3 days of Aikido and then go show off their skills at the bar.

Here grab my wrist, no not like that like this.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 01-22-2009, 06:32 AM   #161
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

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Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
Here grab my wrist, no not like that like this.
This is the line I use whenever someone presses me to "show them something". I jokingly say that I can't do anything as long as they don't grab my wrist, they laugh, situation over.
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Old 01-22-2009, 08:21 AM   #162
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
This is the line I use whenever someone presses me to "show them something". I jokingly say that I can't do anything as long as they don't grab my wrist, they laugh, situation over.
I've used that one too for many years. If they press the matter I invite them to class. When on the mat I ask them to punch me or a junior student...Most do with curious intent...A little atemi and irimi and taaa daa! I just may have a new student. Most folks are intrigued enough to try a class or two. I know I was.

William Hazen
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:54 PM   #163
DonMagee
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You typed, "Is it easier to teach someone who doesn't understand right and left then it is to explain right and left?", which struck me as a bizarre rhetorical question. I still don't understand the point of it.

Don, you're just making sweeping assertions, whereas I have real-life experience in the limitations of children's ability to absorb explanations about why something works. Do you have comparable experience in teaching children aikido? If so, can you provide an example of such a conceptual explanation that you have used and found to consistently work with children (and of what age range)?

Or is it that analytical learning styles are in the minority when it comes to learning physical skills, and that more people use the strategies of doing, feeling and watching to a much greater extent?
So you are saying you are comfortable with asking a question and being told you are too stupid to understand the answer?

I have not taught children aikido. I have taught children and adults judo and bjj. Yes, I show them how to do movements, and I tell them what I am doing and WHY I am doing it. I also give examples as to how this comes into play. This is called good instruction. If the student understands why they are doing something then they can start to put things together besides just doing the movements I show them.

Then after teaching them these movements I can ask them questions such as "Make up your own guard pass", "Create a new throw", or "Invent your own choke". Sure they are not going to really invent a new move, but because they understand why we do movements they are able to come up with ideas no one has shown or taught them.

However, that is not the point of this conversation. The argument is that you should not ask questions. If you are smart enough to have doubts about a movement, then your questions should get REAL answers. Instead you are advocating either that they are too stupid to ask in the first place, or that the instructor is too far above to be bothered with answering.

Example: Instructor shows you doing a movement will stop a boxers punch. I, having some experience in striking do not see how this movement can possibly work. I ask him to explain how this movement is working. The instructor could explain and demonstrate how the movement works, or he could tell me to shut up and ask again 10 years from now when I 'understand'. Which one is going to teach me and which one is just avoiding the question?

Example Two,

A new judo student is unable to get past a stiff arm. I show him how to break the stiff arm but he tells me it will not work. Do I

A) Tell him to shutup because he doesn't understand and that in 10 years all will be clear.

B) Demonstrate how it works and explain why it works.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-22-2009, 02:27 PM   #164
lbb
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
So you are saying you are comfortable with asking a question and being told you are too stupid to understand the answer?
Don, you keep putting words in my mouth. Could you maybe stop doing that?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I have not taught children aikido. I have taught children and adults judo and bjj. Yes, I show them how to do movements, and I tell them what I am doing and WHY I am doing it. I also give examples as to how this comes into play. This is called good instruction. If the student understands why they are doing something then they can start to put things together besides just doing the movements I show them.
Right, well, I guess anyone who teaches any other way is doing what's called "bad instruction". Whatever.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
However, that is not the point of this conversation. The argument is that you should not ask questions.
No, it isn't, and it would help if you would stop insisting that that's what I'm saying.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
If you are smart enough to have doubts about a movement, then your questions should get REAL answers. Instead you are advocating either that they are too stupid to ask in the first place, or that the instructor is too far above to be bothered with answering.
No. You're the one who insists on framing things in terms of "smart" and "stupid". That's not what this is about. It's about your insistence that a student develop an abstract conceptual understanding of what you are teaching. That, according to you, is "good instruction". By your own description of your "good instruction" above, you are not answering questions; instead, you are providing explanations whether the questions have been asked or not. Guess what? Young children almost never ask questions like that! They almost never ask, "Gee, why does the ski turn that way?"! I've taught hundreds of kids in that age range, and never once has a kid asked me that question or one like that. Furthermore, in my experience, young kids whose instructor insists on giving them conceptual explanations are confused, frustrated and/or bored to tears as they are forced to stand by the side of the trail, listening to the instructor go on in a display of what he knows. They just don't have the conceptual framework -- and frankly, most adults, who do have the conceptual framework, don't use analytical learning as their dominant learning mode when learning a physical skill. You need to find other ways to get the understanding across, because analytical learning is not going to go the distance for most people -- of any age.
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Old 01-22-2009, 06:32 PM   #165
Walter Martindale
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Example Two,

A new judo student is unable to get past a stiff arm. I show him how to break the stiff arm but he tells me it will not work. Do I

A) Tell him to shutup because he doesn't understand and that in 10 years all will be clear.

B) Demonstrate how it works and explain why it works.
Or - how about
C) suggest that you've worked out what you have to do to get past a stiff arm, and offer to provide a stiff arm for the person to learn to get past. Ask if the person can say why this attempt was blocked - then that attempt, then when the person figures it out with YOUR stiff arm, ask if they can identify what they did differently that made it work. Ask them to do it again. Make it harder for them. After a few successful times past your stiff arm, ask them to try this with another opponent - what worked against you may not work against the other person and they have to work out another solution - his or her solution - not yours. (I can't remember what I used to do to get past such a block, but I used to be able to do it.)
That, rather than instructing - is coaching by problem solving. It may take a little longer than simple instructing, but it sticks better, and the person learns more from it.
Cheers,
Walter
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Old 01-23-2009, 07:30 AM   #166
Cyrijl
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Walter,
I think that is what Don was implying with option B

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Old 01-23-2009, 09:21 AM   #167
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

"We also start off from a position of ignorance, and thus are in no position to judge. That's the weakness of the Western mode of learning: its tendency to favor inquiry can lead to a tendency to question, automatically and blindly, even in situations where we lack the experience to understand the answers."

That was what my comment was originally based on. I didn't know only children practice aikido. I still submit that there is nothing wrong with questioning everything. That anyone who asks a question deserves a real answer and that by answering the student, rather then telling him he is too ignorant or inexperienced to understand the answer, you actually are teaching the student.

Further more in regards to this conversation about beating a boxer, I submit that very few aikido instructors have ever been in a fight, let alone know what it takes to deal with someone who is attacking you.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-23-2009, 09:46 AM   #168
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Further more in regards to this conversation about beating a boxer, I submit that very few aikido instructors have ever been in a fight, let alone know what it takes to deal with someone who is attacking you.
When you say 'fight' Don, do you mean street brawl, domestic abuse, or perhaps a sports sanctioned 'fight?'
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Old 01-23-2009, 10:23 AM   #169
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
"We also start off from a position of ignorance, and thus are in no position to judge. That's the weakness of the Western mode of learning: its tendency to favor inquiry can lead to a tendency to question, automatically and blindly, even in situations where we lack the experience to understand the answers."

That was what my comment was originally based on. I didn't know only children practice aikido. I still submit that there is nothing wrong with questioning everything. That anyone who asks a question deserves a real answer and that by answering the student, rather then telling him he is too ignorant or inexperienced to understand the answer, you actually are teaching the student.
I'd like to see you teach theorectical physics to anyone without a physics back ground. I'd put money on most of the people in the class saying "I don't understand any of this, this guy is an idiot."

The typical response to lack of understanding is "I don't understand because you're not making sense, you are an idiot."

I mean to my way of thinking Aikido is often taught backwards. The reason it's taught backwards is so that n00bs get the impression that they're learning something whereas if you approached teaching Aikido from a logical stand point you'd have people spending six months doing exercises they'd never understand and they'd leave.

The end product is that something fairly simple takes ages to learn because it has to be taught in a way which apeals to the students ego and not in a way that's actually conducive to learning Aikido.
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Old 01-23-2009, 11:02 AM   #170
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
The reason it's taught backwards is so that n00bs get the impression that they're learning something whereas if you approached teaching Aikido from a logical stand point you'd have people spending six months doing exercises they'd never understand and they'd leave.
I don't know, there are a couple 'styles' of aikido that start with group exercises...and continue it throughout the training. Yoshinkan for one. And quite a few people seem to stick.

Of course, we also use those same exercises to tie directly into waza...there are even kata that are named kihon dosa to kanren waza...

Basic exercises and related technique.

What is trickier in my mind is teaching the things that Mike and Dan Harden and others speak of in the same fashion. I think for those things, the exercises are almost a goal themselves...and while the skills and conditioning built directly tie in to *how* you probably should do the basic movements and technique, it seems to take some time to get 'there'.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-23-2009, 11:40 AM   #171
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

[quote=Ron Tisdale;223934

What is trickier in my mind is teaching the things that Mike and Dan Harden and others speak of in the same fashion. I think for those things, the exercises are almost a goal themselves...and while the skills and conditioning built directly tie in to *how* you probably should do the basic movements and technique, it seems to take some time to get 'there'.

Best,
Ron[/QUOTE]

If I hear you correctly, I believe this is how I've approached my aiki training from the beginning. My goal was 'doing it', whatever that 'it' was. And through doing exercises until they felt strong and seamless I was able to completely move through several training principles without obscuring them with mythological fantasies about peace or war.

Paradoxically that lead to a relatively good comprehension of the relationship between kihon and waza. And it lead to an ability to act with physical effectiveness in moments when lives depended on it. So, as they say, the proof was in the pudding after the correct ingredients were put in the bowl and allowed to set in the fridge(me ).

Just to add a name to the list of people who work well in principles and exercises, George Ledyard immediately comes to mind. He's a guy who also knows to keep it you gotta give it away. But that's another story for another day. Maybe the day's of the aikiweb workshop.....

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 01-23-2009, 12:46 PM   #172
Keith Larman
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
If I hear you correctly, I believe this is how I've approached my aiki training from the beginning.
Ya, sure, me too...

Every class starts with 20 minutes of the "aiki taiso". I remember watching an advanced class when I was deciding whether to start up at this particular school. I watched the instructor teach one of those particular solo exercises, then test out the exercise, then apply that exercise to techniques. Emphasis on not using muscle, but blending, using ki, and staying deeply grounded. He came over after class and asked if I had any questions. I simply asked if I could feel what he was doing. Keep in mind I'm 6 feet, over 200 pounds, and at the time I was heavily into weight training. This guy whom I had at least 40 pounds on and about 4 inches moved me effortlessly. I asked how he did it and he just smiled and pointed out that I had watched the class. No magic. Just blending. Just being grounded. Just letting energy do what it does without muscling.

So part of my brain went "huh?" but the rest of me was sold.

A whole bunch of years later and I'm still trying to figure it all out. The basic waza are easy to describe. It's the really cool stuff that is hard to explain...

Maybe we're all deluded, but hey, I'm having a great time!

Of course your mileage may vary. And I've trained with guys doing stuff that looks completely foreign to me that they call Aikido. So who knows... I'm looking forward to the Aikiweb workshop.

And for those of you going -- if you've ever seen Toby Threadgill move, you'll see what I think really good aiki looks like. Smooth as silk. I for one am looking forward to time on the mat as long as I can keep my back healthy.

And on another tangent, I'm surprised you guys are still discussing all this stuff. Which of course begs the question why I felt the need to post myself... For what its worth I think it is time to shrug and the next round of beers is on me.

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Old 01-23-2009, 01:13 PM   #173
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
If I hear you correctly, I believe this is how I've approached my aiki training from the beginning. My goal was 'doing it', whatever that 'it' was. And through doing exercises until they felt strong and seamless I was able to completely move through several training principles without obscuring them with mythological fantasies about peace or war.
Hmm, well, I hear that alot. Used to say it alot too...

I'm sure someday we'll get to train together and then we'll know if we are talking about the same thing or not. Especially because the people who are good at what I'm talking about have all pretty much blown any idea of me being good out of the water...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-23-2009, 01:40 PM   #174
Budd
 
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

I dunno - it seems that it depends to what degree you have:

1) Goals with regard to your training
2) The ability to take ownership for meeting these goals

If one and two are yes, then you should likely be assessing if you're on track for meeting your goals (presuming they're within a realistic scope) and go from there.

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Old 01-23-2009, 01:47 PM   #175
aikilouis
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Or as someone says : "It has to be felt".

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