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Old 08-21-2008, 06:32 AM   #51
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You have a queer use of the word "empirical."

In other words, "empirical" relates to testing a defined principle that makes a prediction that can falsify the principle if it fails.

SOOoo define your principle and tells us what it predicts, how you would test that prediction and if it fails how it will falsify your principle.
For being a supposedly intelligent person, you sure pick and choose your own definitions in a queer way.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empirical

Quote:
Main Entry: em·pir·i·cal
Function: adjective
Date: 1569

1 : originating in or based on observation or experience <empirical data>

2 : relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory <an empirical basis for the theory>

3 : capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment <empirical laws>

4 : of or relating to empiricism
SOOoo, taken all together, Dan's usage of the word is apt. Your view is not. It's really that simple. But, if you want to debate any of this, please open another thread because you're off topic and I'd rather talk about the original poster's topic.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 08-21-2008, 06:34 AM   #52
Timothy WK
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

We're starting to cross-post between discussions, but oh well...

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Look at this atricle by Tim Fong and Rob John (a good article BTW) on Aunkai and the first image of Akuzawa doing tenchijin. http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=699
He is in the posture of bearing under load. The second diagram below it shows two arches. What do arches do? Bear loads. Their use of tension to form continuous connection through the body is simulating the virtual bearing of such a load.
Quote:
Erick Mead (from another thread) wrote: View Post
I look at Rob's (very good) descriptions and illustrations of Ark's exercises and what little has been divulged here of the manner of doing others such as shiko. From that it seems, visually and intuitively that you are simulating the condition of the body in a loaded condition -- but without the load...
Erick, I understand why you would say that, but you're simply wrong about what the exercises are doing.

An issue you've had all along is that you keep making assumptions about what people are doing or what their descriptions mean, and then making conclusions based on those assumptions. Your logic is not necessarily bad, but you're starting with faulty assumptions, thus your conclusions end up wrong.

Case in point:

While it's true that the Aunkai exercises place the body under a certain amount of strain or load, that's more an accident or collateral consequence.(*) If you look at IMA other than the Aunkai, you'll find that many exercises don't place any (overt) strain on the practitioner. For example, check out the "Eight Piece Brocade" qigong---5 of the 8 sets are performed standing upright in a "normal" posture.

I would argue that it's the shape of the exercise that's important.(**) The exercise places the practitioner in a particular alignment or "frame" (as the Aunkai folks like to say) that---along with the mental stuff I mentioned in my earlier post---facilitates a certain (subconscious) biomechanical response.

The purpose of these exercises is to learn to activate and develop these (subconscious) biomechanical functions. It is worth noting that while opinions vary on the best way to train the internals, clearly some (high-level) practitioners have acquired their skill without using high-strain methods. Thus it would appear that unlike normal muscle, adding resistance does not necessarily affect the overall rate and/or depth of development of these alternative biomechanics.(***)
__________

(*) Caveat #1: The strain of the exercises do contribute something to the overall experience, but it's not fundamental to internal training.
(**) Caveat #2: External "shape" is only important in as much as it is an expression or manifestation of internal dynamics. As has been said many times, it's possible to emulate the outward shape without the proper internal dynamics.
(***) Caveat #3: There is a place for adding "resistance" for tactical or practical purposes, but that type of training is tangential to general internal strength building.

Last edited by Timothy WK : 08-21-2008 at 06:48 AM.

--Timothy Kleinert
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Old 08-21-2008, 06:35 AM   #53
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Speeding to WHERE, exactly? If you have never been to your promised destination -- should you be in a hurry to go, and are sure you will like what you find when you get there? The travel brochures always look good. The reality is always more grimy (and often smelly, which the brochures never seem to get across). Speed has many characteristics. Among others, it blurs perception, and induces overconfidence.

I think there is even a fable on this point.
You've obviously reached a point where you'd rather debate words than the topic at hand. As I've stated in my last post, if you want to debate the words, please open another thread somewhere else. The topic at hand, in case you've forgotten, can be found in the title of the thread and here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...83&postcount=1

Thank you,
Mark
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:36 AM   #54
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
SOOoo, taken all together, Dan's usage of the word is apt. Your view is not. It's really that simple.
Taken all together that usage was in support of an express ad populum fallacy and the offered "empirical fact" was a argument from popularity preference ("more and more people prefer brand X") -- but you see what you wish to see.

As to topicality, the points I have made are in support of the "intuited" position drawn from ordinary activity done in a mindful way, and emphasizing the commitment to hard work and thought -- not secret doctrine. It is someone else who is proselytizing The Revelation (tm) (the (tm) is his usage, not mine), so this is all OT.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:59 AM   #55
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
Erick, I understand why you would say that, but you're simply wrong about what the exercises are doing.

While it's true that the Aunkai exercises place the body under a certain amount of strain or load, that's more an accident or collateral consequence.(*) If you look at IMA other than the Aunkai, you'll find that many exercises don't place any (overt) strain on the practitioner. ...

I would argue that it's the shape of the exercise that's important.(**) The exercise places the practitioner in a particular alignment or "frame" (as the Aunkai folks like to say) that---along with the mental stuff I mentioned in my earlier post---facilitates a certain (subconscious) biomechanical response.
Then we are agreeing -- and not arguing. The shapes you mention, particularly the spiral asagao motions and what I ahve alos analyzed in (what are the same but merely flattened in one plane ) cutting and gathering motions , as well as and the same point about spiral in shiko. All of those are present in the Eight-piece brocade.

One approach is additive -- the other is reductive. One approach starts with the presumptively "correct" shape and then adds mass/power/force/momentum to the "right" shape.

The other starts with the mass/power/momentum problem and reduces down to the most efficient shape.

The first is revelatory -- your have to have a prior understanding of the "shape". The second is intuitive -- you find the shape.

It ought to be the same shape in both cases. And not surprisingly it is and it is, mechanically speaking found in both the "loose" forms of pendular motion and in the "tight" forms of torsional shear.

Really, I am not reinventing wheels here -- I am just pointing out that all the round things that roll on roads are properly called "wheels."

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
Thus it would appear that unlike normal muscle, adding resistance does not necessarily affect the overall rate and/or depth of development of these alternative biomechanics.(***)
The purpose of loading and resistance in the manner suggested, is NOT to build muscle or strength -- but to initially defeat it -- so as to get to right form and action for efficient movement.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-21-2008, 08:29 AM   #56
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
One approach is additive -- the other is reductive. One approach starts with the presumptively "correct" shape and then adds mass/power/force/momentum to the "right" shape.

The other starts with the mass/power/momentum problem and reduces down to the most efficient shape.

The first is revelatory -- your have to have a prior understanding of the "shape". The second is intuitive -- you find the shape.
Erick, you are again making assumptions and not listening to what I was saying.

The "shape"---in conjunction with the mental stuff, that's important---facilitates a certain biomechanical response. It is that biomechanical response that is important. The "shape" has no value in and of itself---as far as internal training goes---other than as a conduit for these biomechanical functions.

If you don't start with the proper "shape" (and mental stuff!), you won't get the desired response. The "shape" is only a starting point. If you have to "find the shape" as you said, then you haven't even begun the exercise. (And that's the complaint with the "external-to-internal" paradigm, you spend a ton of time developing form/technique before you even get to start the internal aspects.)

--Timothy Kleinert
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Old 08-21-2008, 09:53 AM   #57
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I disagree entirely with this definition. In computer science for example there is a the difference between a composite and an aggregate. Looking at aiki as a composite is a mistake in depth which makes it a bit ironic in that aiki also was used to describe the okuden level of a sword system (and okugi means "depth").

I keep reading this same surface level description of ai and ki, and that's just not what aiki means when you put it together - especially in the martial arts context.
Actually, Joseph makes a legitimate point. If you look at my thread on "Aikido no Kokoro", one of the basic assertions by OSensei's son was that his father abandoned the older strategic term "aiki" and created a new understanding "aiKi" meaning to join with the universal life energy. It was that specific shift, both as a concept and as a training paradigm, that defined Aikido, making it a distinct art from Daito Ryu. To be clear, I'm not advocating that world view, it doesn't work for me at all actually. But it is one of the reasons that I don't consider myself to be doing aiKido, but rather Aiki-budo, something of a return to the pre-Ueshiba concept of aiki.

Chris Moses
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:31 AM   #58
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Actually, Joseph makes a legitimate point. If you look at my thread on "Aikido no Kokoro", one of the basic assertions by OSensei's son was that his father abandoned the older strategic term "aiki" and created a new understanding "aiKi" meaning to join with the universal life energy. It was that specific shift, both as a concept and as a training paradigm, that defined Aikido, making it a distinct art from Daito Ryu. To be clear, I'm not advocating that world view, it doesn't work for me at all actually. But it is one of the reasons that I don't consider myself to be doing aiKido, but rather Aiki-budo, something of a return to the pre-Ueshiba concept of aiki.
I am not begging a Ki-war, here, but the distinction can be made without making them at all exclusive. It depends on what your understanding of KI is in both the microcosm of engaged conflict and in the macrocosm.

If they are, in fact, the same thing -- then there is no abandonment, only progression in comprehension of the same reality. This is a valid position to hold, and my concept of physical KI is about as concrete as they come. My considered thought on the matter is that tendency-around-center actually defines both. The physical concept is everywhere the same and as a spiritual concept transcends culture. "God is an intelligible sphere whose center is everywhere and circumference is nowhere." (Alain de Lille). The operative point, physically and spiritually being that my opponent has no more privileged claim to be THE center of action than I do, and vice versa, but the center nevertheless defines all action -- at all scales.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:38 AM   #59
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Actually, Joseph makes a legitimate point. If you look at my thread on "Aikido no Kokoro", one of the basic assertions by OSensei's son was that his father abandoned the older strategic term "aiki" and created a new understanding "aiKi" meaning to join with the universal life energy. It was that specific shift, both as a concept and as a training paradigm, that defined Aikido, making it a distinct art from Daito Ryu. To be clear, I'm not advocating that world view, it doesn't work for me at all actually. But it is one of the reasons that I don't consider myself to be doing aiKido, but rather Aiki-budo, something of a return to the pre-Ueshiba concept of aiki.

Chris Moses
Well actually I think Ueshiba was pointing to Daito ryu aiki when he said Aiki as one with the universe.
I think he was talking all the time about the very training you are doing right now.
Its why Ueshiba could say what appeared to be fruity stuff like that -and then go train right wing assassins and military men.
I think only the less informed deshi-who admitted openly that they didn't have a clue what he was talking about -morphed the idea into the aikibunny, peace, love and make your own sandals time quasi religous movement it became here and there.
Thus I believe many aiki bunnies stole and misrepresented the training method- Ueshiba's greatest message of all. Missing that aiki is a training that exists in you, and once you have managed and balanced the universe, (contradictory forces) in you, can you do balance their forces in you and join with them or negate them thus letting aiki happen and restoring balance to you both and interact correctly with the world.
I was just re-reading some of Stans work where he re-states that these famous deshi mostly maxxed out at 4 or 5 yrs of part time training as Ueshiba was traveling allot.
Overall I think we have been hoodwinked by the second generation into a vastly lower level aikido than what Ueshiba was pointing to.
Which is why everyone who encounters this training basically stands there and says "Damn! I missed it."
We went through all the same stuff all these newer guys are going through ourselves. Truth is truth.
I'll be the first to say it cam to me by revelation. only after years was I capable of intuiting my own path and direction.
Which again is why all of Takedas amazing big 5 ;Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba, Hisa, and Tokimune all stated they too added to their 'revelation" from Sokaku and intuited their own paths from his excellent method.
I just don't see Ueshibas skills as different from them. Just a different "expression" from them.
Its all....aiki. Just not THAT aiki.

Last edited by DH : 08-21-2008 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:05 AM   #60
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
Erick, you are again making assumptions and not listening to what I was saying.

The "shape"---in conjunction with the mental stuff, that's important---facilitates a certain biomechanical response. It is that biomechanical response that is important. The "shape" has no value in and of itself---as far as internal training goes---other than as a conduit for these biomechanical functions.
Again, we are not arguing about the importance of biomechnical functions. We seem to disagree about what those might be. Make a revelation of your conception of biomechanical function at issue, then. I have my candidates and I have written about them so I won't dwell here. From what I read on your forum you have boiled it down to two words: tensegrity and fascia.

Respectfully, that is a form of material organization and a material substance. I can take some strung together rods and fascia in good tensegrity and make it work like a column to perch on, a rope to swing or hang, a rod to whack with, a chain to beat with, a beam to span with, or a truss to stiffen, or any number of other functional structures. How do I know this? Because my body IS a tensegrity stucture and it can perform all of those functions using my fascia. Function is what it does, not what it is. Biomechanical function is determining what organic system is doing what and how.

What is the functional aspect of this mutable stuff that your system reveals?

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
If you don't start with the proper "shape" (and mental stuff!), you won't get the desired response.
And if we screw up the shape as we are doing the exercise we have a similar problem. Whether we chip away the stone or pile on the clay, the philosophical debate about the image we are working on is whether it is naturally there to be revealed by the mind acting on the substance of reality or whether it is an arbitrary construct that must be revealed and then imposed on a recalcitrant nature. I am in the former camp when it comes to all art, martial or otherwise.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:07 AM   #61
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well actually I think Ueshiba was pointing to Daito ryu aiki when he said Aiki as one with the universe.

Overall I think we have been hoodwinked by the second generation into a vastly lower level aikido than what Ueshiba was pointing to.
Which is why everyone who meets Mike, Ark, Me, and others basically stand there and say "Damn! I missed it."
Oftentimes, I see "beginners" that are impressed by "intermediates" professing to be more incredible than what they are.

People on this board have put up some amazing videos of extraordinary practitioners. By comparing and contrasting we can develop a metric by which we can do two things "to improve" our abilities: 1) We can study in depth the techniques aspiring to absorb mastery 2) We can place ourselves in comparison, seeing where we honestly "fit" within the spectrum of mastery.

I tire of those who profess skills but never back their words with proof. I for one am not impressed by "beginners" being impressed by "intermediates" who blatantly state " damn... you (20 million others who practice marital arts) missed it.

Fortunately, for me Rob Johns and Mike have stated on this forum that "Joe has "internal skills" in his upper body, though he lacks connection to the lower body". And that he (Rob Johns) knows someone who affirmed my skills. (Should any of us who have studied more than 20, 30, or 45 years be insulted by a young brash man judging my "experience, insights and knowledge" without having even met me? Nah, its all a matter of opinion.)

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:28 AM   #62
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

I basically agree with you Dan. I think I need to clarify a few of my aikido world views however:

I don't think Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido ever existed (with the ironic possible exception of Shinei Taido). Aikido was inspired by him but created by his son, Tohei, Saito and a myriad of other students of his. It's telling to me that the folks that were most able to reproduce his feats of awesomeness (Tomiki, Inoue, Shioda...) were the ones swept under the rug of modern Aikido's history. That or they were specifically held out as ones NOT doing Aikido (Tomiki).

I do think that OSensei *believed* that he *was* joining with the universal Ki. Recall the incident in Hawaii where Tohei spent all night drinking and partying and then was still able to perform Ueshiba's tests and demos. Supposedly OSensei was furious. Why? Because it challenged his perception of why his art worked. Tohei's unclean body should not have been able to accomplish those things, the kami should have run kicking and screaming for the nearest waterfall and a good spirit cleansing. I believe that OSensei believed that he was indeed opening himself up to the universe's direction rather than cultivating or developing his own power/aiki.

Please keep in mind that I make a very real distinction between what OSensei was doing, and how he intellectualized what he was doing. This is where we agree and disagree. I agree with you about what he was doing, but I think that OSensei would disagree with you.

So the defining feature of Aikido is what doomed his followers to mediocrity. At least that's how I see it this year.

Chris Moses
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:30 AM   #63
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well actually I think Ueshiba was pointing to Daito ryu aiki when he said Aiki as one with the universe.
I think he was talking all the time about the very training you are doing right now.
Its why Ueshiba could say what appeared to be fruity stuff like that -and then go train right wing assassins and military men.
That's like advocating breaking skulls as a system of revelation on the basis that Christianity was spread by a jack-booted Jew thug who willing served as an assassin and enforcer for the fascist state. That happens to be untrue -- but only because the thug assassin in question wore sandals, not boots at the time.

But Paul, like Ueshiba, saw this light one day ....

Of course, for Ueshiba it took three times, but then, he was probably more stubborn ... Like some other people I have heard tell of.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:32 AM   #64
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Actually, Joseph makes a legitimate point. If you look at my thread on "Aikido no Kokoro", one of the basic assertions by OSensei's son was that his father abandoned the older strategic term "aiki" and created a new understanding "aiKi" meaning to join with the universal life energy. It was that specific shift, both as a concept and as a training paradigm, that defined Aikido, making it a distinct art from Daito Ryu. To be clear, I'm not advocating that world view, it doesn't work for me at all actually. But it is one of the reasons that I don't consider myself to be doing aiKido, but rather Aiki-budo, something of a return to the pre-Ueshiba concept of aiki.
Fair enough. Thanks for the explanation. I had no idea. I guess I'm a lot more interested in what Osensei meant than what Doshu (II) meant. Imagine if the current Doshu (III) stated that aikido now is to be done like tae kwon doo. I wouldn't even bat an eye.

Rob
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:34 AM   #65
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
I see grabbing, slapping and twisting mentioned; nothing about pushing. Is there another test that occured between Ueshiba and Tenryu? If so I'd be interested in reading about it.

Best,

Ron
Ron and all,

Just started a new thread concerning this topic. You can read about it here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14991
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:39 AM   #66
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I basically agree with you Dan. I think I need to clarify a few of my aikido world views however:

I don't think Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido ever existed (with the ironic possible exception of Shinei Taido). Aikido was inspired by him but created by his son, Tohei, Saito and a myriad of other students of his. It's telling to me that the folks that were most able to reproduce his feats of awesomeness (Tomiki, Inoue, Shioda...) were the ones swept under the rug of modern Aikido's history. That or they were specifically held out as ones NOT doing Aikido (Tomiki).

....snip

Please keep in mind that I make a very real distinction between what OSensei was doing, and how he intellectualized what he was doing. This is where we agree and disagree. I agree with you about what he was doing, but I think that OSensei would disagree with you.

So the defining feature of Aikido is what doomed his followers to mediocrity. At least that's how I see it this year.
I agree as well. And to clarify I was not demeaning those who chose the "aiki as quasi-religion." I actually like (at least the idea) what he was going after- if not the method used.
A friend pointed out that it appeared i was condeming their practice, when I'm not intending to at all. I think Ueshibas skill married his world view to change the damaging finishes in a very practical way that has been mostly lost.

So that said, Yes I agree with you on what Ueshiba was in fact doing, and he himself may have been firmly 'believing' it fell into the realm of the spiritual.
The only other caveate to that is people I know who can do it more or less know what they are doing. So was the language purposefully obscure, or a metaphore for a real direction?

Now, all that said, Chris, can you see the very real potential for actually fulfilling both of Ueshiba's goals in this type of training?
That the joining of aiki in the body to produce aiki on contact gives so much power, that in the end...we have far more potential to join and nuetralize an attacker with out doing them harm, than ever before?

Last edited by DH : 08-21-2008 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:56 AM   #67
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Now, all that said, Chris, can you see the very real potential for actually fulfilling both of Ueshiba's goals in this type of training?
That the joining of aiki in the body to produce aiki on contact gives so much power, that in the end...we have far more potential to join and nuetralize an attacker with out doing them harm, than ever before?
Depends what you see as his goals doesn't it?

If you believe that the real driving goal in his worldview was to join with a Universal will and become a tool for that force, then I think you have to abandon the attempt to develop your own power/aiki since that could be seen as asserting ones ego over the will of the Universal Ki.

If the primary goal is having the ability to control violence and neutralize attacks, then yes, developing aiki within the practitioner becomes vital. I don't think this was actually OSensei's primary goal however. His association with violent revolutionary groups tells me that he's not opposed to some bloodletting if it happens in accord with the will of the Kami/Universal Ki.

Again this goes back to the question of OSensei's vision for Aikido, and what I consider my own training and goals to be.

Chris Moses
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Old 08-21-2008, 12:59 PM   #68
DH
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Depends what you see as his goals doesn't it?

1. If you believe that the real driving goal in his worldview was to join with a Universal will and become a tool for that force, then I think you have to abandon the attempt to develop your own power/aiki since that could be seen as asserting ones ego over the will of the Universal Ki.

2. If the primary goal is having the ability to control violence and neutralize attacks, then yes, developing aiki within the practitioner becomes vital. I don't think this was actually OSensei's primary goal however. His association with violent revolutionary groups tells me that he's not opposed to some bloodletting if it happens in accord with the will of the Kami/Universal Ki.

Again this goes back to the question of OSensei's vision for Aikido, and what I consider my own training and goals to be.
Well now
1. I see number one wholly in keeping with training for power without resorting to your ego in the sense that he stated it. Maintaining a profound sense of heaven / earth / man, central equilibrium, zero balance, (pick one) by maintaining opposing forces inside you will pretty much neutralize in coming force by in a sense getting out of the way and joining harmoniously with that force while pretty much sntading there right?. Thus power in held in balance neutralizes or zeroe's out and joins with force coming in and lets it go.
Or
2. Power added, or power interrupted, or power at speed can control, crush, kock out or otherwise dominate.

I see no difference
It becomes a spiritual choice, not a change of venue.They are all made manifest by the same thing. At anyone point you decide without changing...you.
I think the "how" of all of this was lost and morhped into the external movements; tankan, turning, spinning, irimi etc and much, most of the power and intent has gone.

Last edited by DH : 08-21-2008 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 08-21-2008, 01:18 PM   #69
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think the "how" of all of this was lost and morhped into the external movements; tankan, turning, spinning, irimi etc and much, most of the power and intent has gone.
Totally agree. The other stuff is all just philosophy. That's why I'm still able to teach "Aikido" even though I don't consider what I'm doing to be "Aikido" anymore.

Chris Moses
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Old 08-21-2008, 01:27 PM   #70
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Chris,

Why don't you get a TM on the name Aikido and then you'd . . .

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
still able to teach "Aikido" even though I don't consider what I'm doing to be "Aikido" anymore.
Now wouldn't THAT be a hoot!



You could go around saying, "That's not Aikido!" And then if they argued, you could charge royalties or something!



OK, lunch is over, back to work for Beebe!

Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 08-21-2008, 01:45 PM   #71
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

"Aikido? You thought I said I was a shihan in Aikido? No no no, it's "Eyekeedoe" totally different art, an offshoot of Saigo-ha Daito Ryu, not that Takeda DR crap..."


Chris Moses
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:42 PM   #72
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

I'm so confused. I don't even know what art I'm practicing anymore.
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:35 PM   #73
DH
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
I'm so confused. I don't even know what art I'm practicing anymore.
Sort of gives "Make your own Aikido" or "Make Aikido your own!" a whole new twist eh?
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:40 PM   #74
mathewjgano
 
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
That hasn't been my experience, but I remain cautiously optimistic..

Rob
Well, we do all train for different reasons. I suppose what matters most is that folks who want to learn something, get the chance to. Folks who don't want to learn something, don't have to.
As far as the opportunity to get the word out about new ideas for training is concerned, at least we live in the information age. As has been pointed out, lots of folks have been able to begin finding access to a great variety of perspectives on these things.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:53 PM   #75
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

So, regarding my post yesterday about roto-hammer style aiki...obviously it's hard to know for sure from a description, but how does it strike you folks? Proto-aiki, aiki, or non-aiki? I would put this kind of practice under the heading of intuited aiki, but do any of you feel confident enough to say whether it's one way or the other?
Take care (and thanks for the great food for thought),
Matt

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