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Old 08-27-2017, 01:28 PM   #26
nikyu62
Dojo: Aikido Club of American Samoa
Location: American Samoa
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Re: Criteria for Dan evaluation

I have heard it said "Be the change you want to see." Everyone has their own path to walk. Dojo busters seem to have been more common in past times, but it seems prudent to keep one's awareness extended just in case.
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Old 08-28-2017, 03:59 AM   #27
JJF
 
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Re: Criteria for Dan evaluation

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Sure they will, until the other monkey gets physical. What then?
Oh for God's sake, this isn't "my martial art is better then yours", this is "how do you get a fricking high black belt Dan rank when you can't even use what you leaned to defend yourself against a slap". The attacker doesn't have to be a martial artist, he can be just some guy of the street interested in training in your art and decides to test you to see if it's actually worth it. You do know the stories of how people challenged O'Sensei's students in the Kobukan and how they were dealt with?

Would a punch (tsuki, atemi) be considered Aikido?
It seems a lot of people have a quarrel with your basic understanding that the purpose of Aikido is only to build ability to defend yourself.
Of course Aikido is a budo. A budo should contain SOME element of martial intent. Otherwise it is simply not by definition a budo.
I follow you that long

I also agree that we sometimes come across senseis who teach the spiritual sides of aikido more than the martial. And sometimes they just don't put any effort into the martial aspect. it happens. And yes.. being able to avoid an attack and to some extent handle it would be something that we should never leave out of our focus.

And I have also seen my fair share of videos where it is likely that the aikido instructor have groomed his students into being overly sensitive to the little signals, and therefore they are falling left and right with the slightest indication of a punch or a body movement. This can be very refined and skill at an extreme level - but also a little dangerous if you start relying on uke being able to pick up on such slight signals. Most muggers will not.

So yes - let's agree that martial intent is and should be a very important corner stone in Aikido.

I do NOT agree that being able to win a combat with another person is a goal in Aikido, let alone a measure of quality in itself. Some people are natural fighters - others are not. Those that are not will have to train how to express their way of martial intent. Those that have agression, speed and the will to punch other people wil on the other hand need to work with other aspects of their practice before I am willing to call it Aikido.

This brings us back to your initial question: How does one get a high degree in Aikido while looking like a 4th kyu (I paraphrase)
There are several possible scenarios:
1) The sensei is actually really good - and in a very nice sync with his ukes so that most people are not able to see the intricate details. (This is likely not the case you are talking about)
2) The sensei is working intensely on other aspects than martial intent. Maybe one day this will grow into his/her training
3) The sensei is in a style of Aikido that is desperate to grow, and will get up in the ranks fast. Maybe just to build the organisation and keep the sensei proud and enthusiastic. Maybe in recongnition of a huge effort in other ways than on the mat. Building and running a dojo is actually hard work
4) the main sensei of the style is running a McDojo and sell the grades regardless of competence - yes.. it happens
5) the main sensei need to boost his rooster of medium dan grades to position him/herself for an 8th dan or similar. Yes this also happens. All Aikido organizations are exactly that... organizations. With at least some elements of politics, hidden agendas, small minded people, greedy people and psychophants.

So your questions is valid. But the way you wrote it was bound to tick some people off.

My best advice is to focus less on those incidents and just focus on your own training, and be open for other peoples interpretations so that you can add it to your own understanding and build the version of Aikidot that expresses you the best.

Oh... and yes.. atemi is very much Aikido. But the different interpretations of WHAT Atemi is, and HOW it relates to Aikido are incredible. Maybe even unique for each and everyone practicing.

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:14 PM   #28
erikmenzel
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Re: Criteria for Dan evaluation

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post

Would a punch (tsuki, atemi) be considered Aikido?
Yeah, and to add even further: the notion of cheating doesn't exist in Aikido either.
If you want to learn about suki, then why limit yourself. Just as long as you keep n studying to improve.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
kokoro o makuru taisanmen ni hirake
Personal:www.kuipers-menzel.com
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Old 08-31-2017, 03:21 PM   #29
Avery Jenkins
 
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Re: Criteria for Dan evaluation

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Sure they will, until the other monkey gets physical. What then?
Then you failed. Go back to 5th kyu, start again.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Oh for God's sake, this isn't "my martial art is better then yours", this is "how do you get a fricking high black belt Dan rank when you can't even use what you leaned to defend yourself against a slap".
In other words, "my martial art is better than yours."

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Would a punch (tsuki, atemi) be considered Aikido?
Would a hard stare be considered Aikido?

Avery Jenkins
www.averyjenkins.com
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Old 08-31-2017, 06:46 PM   #30
Currawong
Dojo: Shoheijuku Aikido, Fukuoka
Location: Fukuoka
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 109
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Re: Criteria for Dan evaluation

I posted this on the FB page as well, but I think the best explanation about what a grade means is that it is between the teacher and the student. I know what my grade means inside my own organisation, because I was specifically encouraged to take my last two grades by my sensei and seniors respectively.

However I recognise that there are many organisations where my grade would not be at the same standard they have, mostly due to the greater amount of weapons training, and requirements, that they have. There are probably other techniques practiced, or the way techniques are practiced in other countries which I wouldn't be able to do without putting in time to practice them specifically.
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Old 08-31-2017, 09:45 PM   #31
Janet Rosen
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Re: Criteria for Dan evaluation

Quote:
Avery Jenkins wrote: View Post
Would a hard stare be considered Aikido?
I believe the schoolmarm stare of death is essentially a very potent kiai. So yes.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 09-02-2017, 03:53 AM   #32
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
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Re: Criteria for Dan evaluation

Quote:
Avery Jenkins wrote: View Post
Then you failed. Go back to 5th kyu, start again.
Sure, just as soon as all those "black belts" who can't defend against a slap come back first.

Quote:
In other words, "my martial art is better than yours."
Againg, nope.

Quote:
Would a hard stare be considered Aikido?
Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3XpXOD2680 ?
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Old 09-02-2017, 05:05 AM   #33
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
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Serbia
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Re: Criteria for Dan evaluation

Quote:
Jørgen Jakob Friis wrote: View Post
It seems a lot of people have a quarrel with your basic understanding that the purpose of Aikido is only to build ability to defend yourself.
Of course Aikido is a budo. A budo should contain SOME element of martial intent. Otherwise it is simply not by definition a budo.
I follow you that long
I never said that, the whole point is if you teach something as a martial art then do it properly, this way it becomes a shenanigan.

Quote:
I also agree that we sometimes come across senseis who teach the spiritual sides of aikido more than the martial. And sometimes they just don't put any effort into the martial aspect. it happens. And yes.. being able to avoid an attack and to some extent handle it would be something that we should never leave out of our focus.
It doesn't matter if he is more or less spiritual, nothing stops him from teaching solid, functional martial skills while maintaining the spiritual aspect as the key goal.

Quote:
And I have also seen my fair share of videos where it is likely that the aikido instructor have groomed his students into being overly sensitive to the little signals, and therefore they are falling left and right with the slightest indication of a punch or a body movement. This can be very refined and skill at an extreme level - but also a little dangerous if you start relying on uke being able to pick up on such slight signals. Most muggers will not.
And this is a topic about teaching methods, nevertheless he is still teaching them something.

Quote:
So yes - let's agree that martial intent is and should be a very important corner stone in Aikido.
Praise O'Sensei!!!

Quote:
I do NOT agree that being able to win a combat with another person is a goal in Aikido, let alone a measure of quality in itself. Some people are natural fighters - others are not. Those that are not will have to train how to express their way of martial intent. Those that have agression, speed and the will to punch other people wil on the other hand need to work with other aspects of their practice before I am willing to call it Aikido.
I got no problem with this.

Quote:
This brings us back to your initial question: How does one get a high degree in Aikido while looking like a 4th kyu (I paraphrase)
There are several possible scenarios:
1) The sensei is actually really good - and in a very nice sync with his ukes so that most people are not able to see the intricate details. (This is likely not the case you are talking about)
2) The sensei is working intensely on other aspects than martial intent. Maybe one day this will grow into his/her training
3) The sensei is in a style of Aikido that is desperate to grow, and will get up in the ranks fast. Maybe just to build the organisation and keep the sensei proud and enthusiastic. Maybe in recongnition of a huge effort in other ways than on the mat. Building and running a dojo is actually hard work
4) the main sensei of the style is running a McDojo and sell the grades regardless of competence - yes.. it happens
5) the main sensei need to boost his rooster of medium dan grades to position him/herself for an 8th dan or similar. Yes this also happens. All Aikido organizations are exactly that... organizations. With at least some elements of politics, hidden agendas, small minded people, greedy people and psychophants.
Nice classification. This should be a list of instructors to avoid if you wish to learn Aikido as a martial art.

Quote:
So your questions is valid. But the way you wrote it was bound to tick some people off.
It should tick everybody to the point that something would be actually done about it and not just, "Well you don't get his interpretation..." what the hell ever that means.

Quote:
My best advice is to focus less on those incidents and just focus on your own training, and be open for other peoples interpretations so that you can add it to your own understanding and build the version of Aikidot that expresses you the best.
This isn't just about my training, this is about the general state in which the Aikido community is, otherwise I wouldn't be posting this thread.

Quote:
Oh... and yes.. atemi is very much Aikido. But the different interpretations of WHAT Atemi is, and HOW it relates to Aikido are incredible. Maybe even unique for each and everyone practicing.
As long as it has martial integrity I don't care how unique it is for everybody. Every boxer has his own "unique" way of boxing and yet you know it's still boxing with the same martial integrity. The only difference is in the level of the boxer himself. Like you wrote earlier, some people are natural born fighters others are not, but that doesn't mean that somebody can't be trained to become a better fighter. At least against a slap.
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Old 09-02-2017, 08:42 AM   #34
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 259
Serbia
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Re: Criteria for Dan evaluation

Quote:
Amos Barnett wrote: View Post
However I recognise that there are many organisations where my grade would not be at the same standard they have, mostly due to the greater amount of weapons training, and requirements, that they have. There are probably other techniques practiced, or the way techniques are practiced in other countries which I wouldn't be able to do without putting in time to practice them specifically.
That's one of the weird parts of Aikido organizations. The fact that dojo's from different countries, despite the fact that they belong to the same Aikido organization with the same technical director, can do the techniques and even basic principles differently to a point where you wonder who is their main instructor. I was told that this was mostly a political issue but in fact there are several reasons for something like this.

Last edited by MrIggy : 09-02-2017 at 08:47 AM.
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