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Old 08-19-2017, 07:51 AM   #51
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

An expectation is a premeditated resentment.

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Old 08-19-2017, 10:48 AM   #52
rugwithlegs
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

I trained in the Canadian Aikido Federation, and obtained shodan. I moved for work, and the only dojo in that city was a dojo that had broken away from the Ki Society. My rank was not acknowledged, neither was the nidan rank for another visiting physician.

The organization has the ability to decide whose previous training and rank they will honor. I went back to white belt. I didn't care much at first, I did just want to train and learn. I had done the same when I went to a Yoshinkan dojo, and I have done the same since ata Tomiki dojo. I have no problem saying I do not have a shodan level of understanding of the teaching method in these organizations.

Where it got weird this time is that I was actively helping students get ready for grading in short order. One local student started the same time as me, and was congratulated for doing variations that the head of the organization had never seen before (I had taught him those variations). He was given two kyu ranks at once for being so "creative." He lapped up that praise, as did the local teacher. Then, the whole room was given an extended lecture on why all other schools of Aikido suck so hard and so badly. I never disavowed my previous teacher or organization, and after 18 months and several seminars I never was given the chance to test for the lowest kyu rank. I practice the method, I claim no lineage in Ki Aikido.

Around New Years, an Aikikai Hombu fourth Dan was charged with a sexual assault or something like that, and I understand he lost his teaching position. His skills were not lost, and I assume his rank is intact. I have known other people who kept rank despite criminal behavior or unethical behavior. I find this a difficult concept as Aikido makes claims of being an ethical art. A nurse can lose their license for unethical behavior as can a lawyer. But, the skills are still there.

People can genuinely lose their skills through injuries and lose their knowledge through strokes or brain tumors; usually the ranks are left intact in my experience. While the rank stays, the actual instructor duties in the dojo at the local level might have to change temporarily if not permanently.

I have met a few who were given rank for other reasons than their skills. In other arts, being promoted in this fashion is noted on the rank certificate. Stanley Pranin had advocated this should be done with Aikido ranks but to my understanding it is not.

The only punishable offense at the organizational level seems to be disloyalty. One of the benefits of the Aikikai is that the group is so large that a student can find someone else to be aligned to, or they can work directly with the mother organization. Fractures in a dojo or a small area do not affect the larger group or training opportunities. IME, smaller organizations can be much more easily affected.

I took a decade getting to nidan, and as I approach my 30th year in Aikido I am sandan. I cannot clearly say what sandan means though.
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Old 08-19-2017, 07:05 PM   #53
Janet Rosen
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Lessee, the head of an aikido organization in the UK trained and promoted some students to the rank of 7th Dan. But, according to Mr. Haft, they didn't really perform aikido as taught by the sensei in charge of the organization, but he promoted them anyway.

For some reason some of these people have left the organization and are continuing to teach aikido even in seminars.

As part of their seminar marketing they list that they are 7th Dan without making a claim to the organization or sensei who awarded the rank and Mr. Haft doesn't believe they should do that and doesn't believe that they still hold the rank even though he knows that it has not been revoked.

Since Mr. Haft wanted to know how others felt about the issue, my view is opposite his. I feel that these individuals remain 7th Dan and are entitled to call themselves that. If asked, I would expect them to state what organization awarded the rank. I certainly don't believe that they should claim their seminars are "My Former Organization Seminars" since they are no longer members of that group, but just aikido seminars taught by these individuals. An awful lot of people would not attend a seminar conducted by someone with no rank (assuming they don't know him by name and reputation), but would consider attending the teaching of a 7th Dan. That is just advertising based on something they apparently earned and paid for.

This whole debate makes me wonder about who and what group teaches passive-aggressive behavior as part of aikido training......
yep, pretty much my take on it

Janet Rosen
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:05 AM   #54
Currawong
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
In our specific example, ranks were given in good faith based on the level of experience of the people in question, they were given to help facilitate the creation of an organisation, with the expectation that those receiving them would then seek to acquire the qualities they were meant to represent, by doing things like adopting the founder's syllabus, attending his seminars, and generally trying to practice and work on what he teaches.
From what you describe, I'd suggest that your founding teacher has made some bad decisions when it comes to promoting people, and likely other matters.

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John Hillson wrote: View Post
I have met a few who were given rank for other reasons than their skills. In other arts, being promoted in this fashion is noted on the rank certificate. Stanley Pranin had advocated this should be done with Aikido ranks but to my understanding it is not.
In Japan people are either "shidoin" or honorarily ranked. Everyone knows who is who. As a consequence of the culture, people with an honorary rank never allow anyone to call them "sensei", even if they have 6th or 7th dan. Many of the people here with 5th to 7th dan are honorary -- "old boys" and "old girls" who have been training for 40+ years and are given rank depending on their seniority relative to each other, ie: who started earlier or later. They respect their teacher so highly and behave with such a high degree of propriety that they will not visit another dojo outside the organisation without the Dojo Cho's permission. I agree that such a system would not work outside Japan unless the ranks were indeed very publicly marked as honorary only.

I spent quite a bit of time thinking about issues of rank over the last few years and I've decide that my rank only means two things: Firstly whatever it means to me personally. I'd be lying if I said that I thought rank was unimportant to me personally -- of course it is! I am really happy that a student of O'Sensei feels that I have attained the level that I have. Secondly, however, it means only what it does in the organisation I am in. If I go overseas and visit a dojo in, say, the USA (which I've done) someone of the same rank as me may have a different balance of abilities for the same rank, such as with weapons or particular techniques and/or ways of executing them.

When I re-started Aikido here in Japan, I reflexively did techniques the way I remembered and was often told "We do that technique this way here." until I adapted. If, for some reason I moved to another location and had to join another group, even within the Aikikai, as part of my introduction I'd probably say something like "I trained for X years under [my sensei] and apologies if I mistakenly do techniques the way I'm used to and don't copy your way of doing things so well at first." With all the drama in organisations, I can very much understand why foreign students of my own sensei, when they returned to their own country, decided to start their dojo instead of join the local organisation.
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Old 08-20-2017, 05:07 AM   #55
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

At one extreme - one of my first instructors insisted that anyone who got a shodan in any style must wear his black belt when training - even not an Aikido BB. At the other, I have seen Aikido BBs told they need to regrade when joining a new style. I have also seen senior grades tell junior grades they are not worth their BBs even within their own style. In the UK there were various associations of marital arts that would accept anyone - so lots of hyper inflated grades. At the end of the day - grading is just hierarchical BS. If you are good at something, others will look for and notice skill and say, 'teach me'. If you have a BB cert, others will 'assume' you have skill and say, 'teach me', and often, they have no skill. The BB cert blinds some people. And sometimes they have a BB cert but little skill, so bad that everyone notices it. There are all sorts out there. Then as in this thread - some BBs rescinded for various reasons - some good ... some bad. An org can and will do whatever it wants. If the church kicks out a priest he is no longer a priest. If the police kick out a cop, he is no longer a cop. If a teacher is sacked for bad behaviour etc., he is no longer a teacher. He may still have the knowledge, but he can't teach. But they are big orgs. Aikido orgs are small - so it's all word of mouth. If you are out you are out - for better or for worse. If you don't let the kid with the ball in the team, there will be no game. It's all just human relations. If you find yourself out in the cold ... join a new org and show them your skill. If you have skill ... no problemo. Orgs will always be suspicious of new members if they claim high grades since grades = power in orgs.
Me - 2nd Dan for 27 years. When I had a club in Korea we had many visitors. Anytime there was someone of a higher grade - I let them teach, no matter the style. My first teacher was right!

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Old 08-20-2017, 06:23 AM   #56
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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I totally agree (assuming it's an organisation not a person that awarded it to you), however, what if you left on good terms but perhaps had a difference of opinion on the organisation direction? Is that any reson to give up on your awarded ranks?
That's a great hypothetical. If the organization is happy for you to retain the rank then that seems fair. I don't think this is the case, however.

My opinion is not legal, nor technical in any way. It is simply that personally, I would not want to claim a rank from an organization that I do not respect and has specifically asked me not to. Similarly, I would not respect somebody that did such a thing, and I would not want to join their dojo.
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Old 08-20-2017, 08:01 AM   #57
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Hello John,

I have already made my contributions to this thread, but I think your post deserves some extended comments, which are marked ‘PAG’.

To my mind, the various points you make underline the major structural problems with the dan system, as it exists in aikido. It seems generally accepted that Morihei Ueshiba began to use dan, as a way of personally recognizing skill levels of his students, after meeting Jigoro Kano, who used it in judo. It also seems to be the case that M Ueshiba was very liberal about awarding dan and that it was Kisshomaru who eventually established the system: the regulations that govern the Aikikai grading system today.
The regulations effectively tied the dan system to an organization and it therefore ceased to be something with the personal gift of the founder of the art. However, I believe that this process was gradual and is still evolving.
(The only thing that the present Doshu seems to have done is to stop giving the very high grades of 9th dan and 10th dan.)
The shihan title has also ceased to be something that comes automatically with rank, whether dan or menkyo, and is now awarded as a result of an application from the candidate’s organization.

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John Hillson wrote: View Post
I trained in the Canadian Aikido Federation, and obtained shodan. I moved for work, and the only dojo in that city was a dojo that had broken away from the Ki Society. My rank was not acknowledged, neither was the nidan rank for another visiting physician.
PAG: I assume this was a blanket policy. You do not give any dates, but I assumed from reading your post that this might have been at the time when memories of the previous splits—and therefore splits in general, were still raw. Personally, I would consider such a blanket policy unwise and have never practiced it in my own dojos.

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John Hillson wrote: View Post
The organization has the ability to decide whose previous training and rank they will honor. I went back to white belt. I didn't care much at first, I did just want to train and learn. I had done the same when I went to a Yoshinkan dojo, and I have done the same since at a Tomiki dojo. I have no problem saying I do not have a shodan level of understanding of the teaching method in these organizations.
PAG: You mention an ‘organization’ and ‘they’, then mention training at a couple of dojo (Yoshinkan and Tomiki), but the next paragraph suggests that it is the ‘head’ of the organization who makes the decisions.

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
Where it got weird this time is that I was actively helping students get ready for grading in short order.
PAG: How come? Were the ‘organization’ or ‘head’ aware of the new skills you brought to the dojo?

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
One local student started the same time as me, and was congratulated for doing variations that the head of the organization had never seen before (I had taught him those variations). He was given two kyu ranks at once for being so "creative." He lapped up that praise, as did the local teacher. Then, the whole room was given an extended lecture on why all other schools of Aikido suck so hard and so badly. I never disavowed my previous teacher or organization, and after 18 months and several seminars I never was given the chance to test for the lowest kyu rank. I practice the method, I claim no lineage in Ki Aikido.
PAG: Were the variations you were doing such that it was likely that the ‘head’ of an organization—and therefore someone reasonably proficient—would not have seen them?

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
Around New Years, an Aikikai Hombu fourth Dan was charged with a sexual assault or something like that, and I understand he lost his teaching position. His skills were not lost, and I assume his rank is intact. I have known other people who kept rank despite criminal behavior or unethical behavior. I find this a difficult concept as Aikido makes claims of being an ethical art. A nurse can lose their license for unethical behavior as can a lawyer. But, the skills are still there.
PAG: I have found over the years I have been training and teaching that the concept of aikido as an ‘ethical’ art needs to be taken with a large pinch of salt, if not a whole carton. The basis of my thinking this is the linguistic and philosophical training I received as a student. The argument is that you cannot logically derive an ‘ought’ from an ‘is’ without extra premises allowing you to do this. It was Locke, Hume and the English empiricists who established this, but the original problem has existed ever since the ‘practical syllogism’ of Aristotle, who wanted to incorporate ethical and unethical propositions, which were supposed to lead to actions as a logical consequence, into his general logical structure. Aristotle was a scientist and took logic very seriously.
A whole philosophy of action has developed on the basis of Aristotle’s dilemma, with intentional actions being distinguished from movements and given an ethical dimension. However, the ethical dimension of an action derives from the action itself only within the a-priori moral and ethical framework in which it is set. This is why I do not believe that aikido is necessarily an ‘ethical’ art in the sense that you have suggested. Doshu and the Aikikai assume (they probably have to assume) that aikido skills will always be used in an ethical manner, that is, always ordered to the ‘good’ of the enemy or opponent (in this context, usually termed a ‘partner’). Even the interpretation of the name BU [武] has a ‘good’ (i.e., peaceful) interpretation.
However, it is a further step—and one not logically justified—to argue that the ethical manner (always in a ‘good’ sense; never in a ‘bad’ sense) of using these skills is intrinsic to the techniques of the art themselves.
I practiced marathon running for many years before my knee problems arose and I think this is a useful comparison. To run 26 miles over varied terrain requires a good level of stamina—and you also have to learn how to do it, especially how to pace yourself and regulate your breathing. So, the skill level is certainly there. You can, of course, compete, but I always did it as a solitary activity, even when I ran with friends. Someone set the pace, but the activity was still basically solitary. Much has been written about the ‘mystical’ aspects of marathon running, but there is no ethical dimension at all, such as is argued to exist in aikido practice. You simply get changed and set off—and the rest of the time it is you versus the ground. I came to aikido from marathon running and I approached the art as requiring an analogous set of skills, except that you had to deal with opponents. I then trained with K Chiba and this experience more or less set the tone of my future training.

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
People can genuinely lose their skills through injuries and lose their knowledge through strokes or brain tumors; usually the ranks are left intact in my experience. While the rank stays, the actual instructor duties in the dojo at the local level might have to change temporarily if not permanently.
PAG: Agreed.

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
I have met a few who were given rank for other reasons than their skills. In other arts, being promoted in this fashion is noted on the rank certificate. Stanley Pranin had advocated this should be done with Aikido ranks but to my understanding it is not.
PAG: In Japanese there is the term 名窯. So 名窯教授 is a title given to retired professors. The usual English equivalent is emeritus professor, and I myself was given this title when I retired. It is awarded, so it is not automatic, and is given on the basis of a continued record of research, publications, and administrative tasks (‘skill’ in other words: in my case devising examination questions for university entrance) after becoming a professor. I believe there is such a category in the Aikikai, but I do not think it is evident from the diplomas given. I am aware of this because I am considering giving such a dan to a student of mine. The student has been training for many years and has skills well beyond the level of shodan, but has always avoided ranks of any kind. He trains with his young adolescent son, who is moving up though the kyu grades and will eventually become a yudansha. Japan’s is still a ‘face’/shame culture and this is the reason why I suggested to his father that he obtain his black belt.

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
The only punishable offense at the organizational level seems to be disloyalty. One of the benefits of the Aikikai is that the group is so large that a student can find someone else to be aligned to, or they can work directly with the mother organization. Fractures in a dojo or a small area do not affect the larger group or training opportunities. IME, smaller organizations can be much more easily affected.
PAG: In Japan, apart from the cataclysmic conflicts that affected the entire organization, such as Tohei Sensei’s withdrawal, organizations always have to deal with factions and factionalism.
The dojo in Hiroshima where I trained for 25 years was created through a split with another group and this other group also had to split because a section became a front for a violent gangster (yakuza) group. Factions and splits are everyday facts of life here, probably due to the essentially vertical structure of the teaching and training system. Young students are introduced to sempai and kohai when they are at junior high school and this is something that they will encounter for the rest of their lives. This is generally known and I think one reason why the Aikikai has survived in one piece after Tohei’s departure was that Kisshomaru allowed a large measure of independence to the senior students of his father: after all, he had been one of them. So the ‘factions’ were allowed to survive within the larger organization. This is now changing, to the extent that very few of these senior students are left and the personal transmission from the Founder himself has to be replaced with another ‘ideology’, to replace the ‘collective memory’ of this personal training.

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
I took a decade getting to nidan, and as I approach my 30th year in Aikido I am sandan. I cannot clearly say what sandan means though.
PAG: In the present Aikikai dan system, there is a broad division between dans one to four, and five to eight. The latter diplomas are larger and the wording in Japanese is slightly different. In my case, I was told that I had to go to the Aikikai to receive the diploma from Doshu personally, but I do not think this always happens with those who live outside Japan. As for your final statement, why would you need to? To convince yourself that you have the requisite skill level?

I had better stop here, since I have just become aware of the length of this post.

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 08-20-2017 at 08:07 AM.

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Old 08-20-2017, 03:59 PM   #58
Michael Hackett
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Mr. Haft,

You are correct. You asked for thoughts from others and several have shared them. Some have essentially agreed with you and others, myself included, have disagreed. These are opinions as best I can tell and it doesn't seem that there are any known rules, laws, principles, or theories that specifically address the issue, so you received opinions and nothing more refined than that.

I did add the negative comment because I believe it truly described your narrative. I didn't add it for the shear joy of being negative, I just "call 'em as I see 'em". You are obviously a very bright and articulate individual and surely you know that when someone begins describing an issue of such magnitude on this site, that others will clearly know what organization and which individuals are being discussed without being named. If this discussion causes the people involved discomfort and humiliation you can always and truly assert that you did not name or identify them. That sir, is what I identified as passive-aggressive behavior. If it was not, then I am wrong. That has happened before.

Michael
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Old 08-20-2017, 05:40 PM   #59
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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If this discussion causes the people involved discomfort and humiliation you can always and truly assert that you did not name or identify them. That sir, is what I identified as passive-aggressive behavior. If it was not, then I am wrong. That has happened before.
Ah, ok, I can see that now. Yup that could look passive aggressive. However I'd ask for the benefit of the doubt there. I've not waded knee deep into the digital sewer of online discussion for many years, I'm out of practice at getting my point across politely and without ambiguity - text based conversations by their nature are devoid of the body language and tone of voice that make meaning clear, so they can easily be received differently than intended. It genuinely didn't occur to me just how negative what I was talking about might sound online. So, my bad on that one.

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Old 08-20-2017, 06:29 PM   #60
James Sawers
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Can I get in here with the original question, 'cause it seems interesting to me. My rank is registered with my organization and with Hombu Dojo in Japan. If I thought of it at all, I always thought my rank traveled with me, as with the PhD mentioned earlier. If I wanted to start my own dojo, I would, I think, need to show my lineage to perspective students, to show my credentials, so to speak. Other than that, I would not indicate my former alliance with my old system, except as needed to show that I am not some overnight (well, not at my age, anyway) MASTER.

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Old 08-20-2017, 06:50 PM   #61
James Sawers
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

As a PS: I would add that if I were to formally join another organization to train with, I would not automatically assume that they would recognize my former rank.

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Old 08-20-2017, 07:29 PM   #62
James Sawers
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

And another PS: After reading more of these posts, a question was posed about the rank of someone who would start their own aikido organization. Would they have no rank? If they were, say, a 3rd or 4th dan, could they promote past their own rank?

Just curious.....

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Old 08-21-2017, 04:12 AM   #63
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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James Sawers wrote: View Post
And another PS: After reading more of these posts, a question was posed about the rank of someone who would start their own aikido organization. Would they have no rank? If they were, say, a 3rd or 4th dan, could they promote past their own rank?

Just curious.....
In every case where I've known someone who has started up on their own they've said they had no rank. In the case of my first teacher his last awarded grade was 2nd dan (his teacher died). But he awarded grades higher than this by virtue of having begun his own organisation. He never claimed to have been graded higher than nidan, and never hid that he was issuing grades higher than that. One of the difficult questions we had was when advertising seminars we had no way of knowing what grade to put on them because clearly he wasn't a nidan so far as his abilities went. So we just left the grade off, save for one occasion where somehow the rank of 8th dan got put down on a poster - I don't recall why now - only time I heard anyone ask who gave him the 8th dan or question what he was teaching was that particular seminar, and that was because of what had been put on the poster.

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Old 08-21-2017, 10:31 AM   #64
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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For some reason some of these people have left the organization and are continuing to teach aikido even in seminars.
Here's my question: Who is attending these seminars? Is it members of the same organization that these people have left? If the answer is yes, then I do think there is a level of extreme dishonesty going on.

Otherwise I am very confused. Where I am from it is pretty uncommon for someone affiliated with one organization to attend a seminar hosted by someone affiliated with another (or no) organization.

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Old 08-22-2017, 05:12 AM   #65
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
In every case where I've known someone who has started up on their own they've said they had no rank. In the case of my first teacher his last awarded grade was 2nd dan (his teacher died). But he awarded grades higher than this by virtue of having begun his own organisation. He never claimed to have been graded higher than nidan, and never hid that he was issuing grades higher than that. One of the difficult questions we had was when advertising seminars we had no way of knowing what grade to put on them because clearly he wasn't a nidan so far as his abilities went. So we just left the grade off, save for one occasion where somehow the rank of 8th dan got put down on a poster - I don't recall why now - only time I heard anyone ask who gave him the 8th dan or question what he was teaching was that particular seminar, and that was because of what had been put on the poster.
Did you ask your original teacher to remove his 7th dan btw? He claims 7th dan on his own website. Old as the info may be, you're name checked on there and the mention of 19 dojo in the UK. On the thread on e-budo it's claimed his 7th dan came from Maruyama sensei, directly by you, and i quote "His 7th Dan was awarded him in 2004 by Koretoshi Maruyama who was himself an uchideshi of O Sensei and formerly the Chief instructor of the Ki Society."

http://www.in2networks.eclipse.co.uk/links.htm

This also has the Yuishinkai name all over it, however, the people mentioned in the original query don't. Did you report your first teacher on here?

Best Regards,
John

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Old 08-22-2017, 06:02 AM   #66
john.burn
 
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Re: Leaving an organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Actually, Mike, on his latest website for his new martial art (Yeshua-do - the way of Jesus??) - he claims
"8th Dan (Black Belt) and Shihan, affiliated w/ K.Maruyama Yuishinkai International, and Koichi Tohei Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido"

Surely this is far worse than someone stating rank but not stating affiliation nor any existing connection to your teacher?

http://www.yeshuado.com/geoffrey-flather.php

EDIT: Yeshua-Do might not be his invention, his 8th dan is signed from canada.

Last edited by john.burn : 08-22-2017 at 06:07 AM.

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John

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Old 08-22-2017, 07:04 AM   #67
john.burn
 
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Quote:
Josh Brown wrote: View Post
Here's my question: Who is attending these seminars? Is it members of the same organization that these people have left? If the answer is yes, then I do think there is a level of extreme dishonesty going on.

Otherwise I am very confused. Where I am from it is pretty uncommon for someone affiliated with one organization to attend a seminar hosted by someone affiliated with another (or no) organization.

It's an open seminar, anyone can attend. If members of the old organisation attend (if they're allowed) then that is not the issue of the organising teachers. One more time, they have not advertised themselves as having any present affiliation to the group they left.

If I was part of an organisation that restricted who I can play with or who's seminars I could attend I would be leaving them in a heart beat.

Best Regards,
John

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Old 08-22-2017, 08:27 AM   #68
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Leaving an organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Actually, Mike, on his latest website for his new martial art (Yeshua-do - the way of Jesus??) - he claims
"8th Dan (Black Belt) and Shihan, affiliated w/ K.Maruyama Yuishinkai International, and Koichi Tohei Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido"

Surely this is far worse than someone stating rank but not stating affiliation nor any existing connection to your teacher?

http://www.yeshuado.com/geoffrey-flather.php

EDIT: Yeshua-Do might not be his invention, his 8th dan is signed from canada.
I'm not sure that a specific person was referenced. I think it's easy enough to put two and two together, but to be honest, there are quite a few people that are in the situation that was initially referred to. The person you just brought up is another one of them, and I'll agree with you that this seems dodgy as hell and worse than the other situation. I'm not sure why you are getting quite so hung up about this one person, though. Just because someone else is worse, does not make the first person's actions any less bad.
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Old 08-22-2017, 08:55 AM   #69
john.burn
 
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Re: Leaving an organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I'm not sure that a specific person was referenced. I think it's easy enough to put two and two together, but to be honest, there are quite a few people that are in the situation that was initially referred to. The person you just brought up is another one of them, and I'll agree with you that this seems dodgy as hell and worse than the other situation. I'm not sure why you are getting quite so hung up about this one person, though. Just because someone else is worse, does not make the first person's actions any less bad.
Because this is the first teacher of the originator of this thread, he stated above about him being a 2nd dan but then also a few years back clearly knew he was also given a 7th dan from the same teacher but unlike the poster guys, his first teacher still lists himself as being connected to Maruyama sensei and his group.

This is worse, begs the question, if this was done out of his duty to his current teacher or being a senior UK teacher then why'd he not use this as the example? This is worse than original subjects and the consensus would appear the original example is acceptable behaviour.

I think this particular example (the first teacher) is in no way acceptable, other than, he was given a 7th and can claim to have been given one. Obviously he has since been promoted to 8th dan by yet another group. But his assertions to be still connected to the Yuishinkai are clearly not correct as worded and might have been more unversally accepted as not an ok thing to state.

Best Regards,
John

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Old 08-22-2017, 09:14 AM   #70
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
If I was part of an organisation that restricted who I can play with or who's seminars I could attend I would be leaving them in a heart beat.
Not even remotely close to what I said.

Don't put words in my mouth, thanks.
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Old 08-22-2017, 04:55 PM   #71
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Re: Leaving an organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Because this is the first teacher of the originator of this thread, he stated above about him being a 2nd dan but then also a few years back clearly knew he was also given a 7th dan from the same teacher but unlike the poster guys, his first teacher still lists himself as being connected to Maruyama sensei and his group.

This is worse, begs the question, if this was done out of his duty to his current teacher or being a senior UK teacher then why'd he not use this as the example? This is worse than original subjects and the consensus would appear the original example is acceptable behaviour.

I think this particular example (the first teacher) is in no way acceptable, other than, he was given a 7th and can claim to have been given one. Obviously he has since been promoted to 8th dan by yet another group. But his assertions to be still connected to the Yuishinkai are clearly not correct as worded and might have been more unversally accepted as not an ok thing to state.
I'm far away from a keyboard other than my phone so I'll be brief. I made an error in not posting this thread on aikiweb anonymously to properly shield those concerned and allow this discussion to be had entirely in the abstract as was my intention. I want to here and now offer my most sincere apologies to everyone involved for that mistake. It never occurred to me to think people would be singled out and discussed on the internet like this.

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-25-2017, 04:58 PM   #72
Scott Harrington
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Re: Leaving an organisation and leaving your rank behind.

1. Does EcoSamurai have special powers that allow he / her to post without a name attached?

2. How large is the axe that Ecosamurai has to grind with someone? Pretty large.

3. Is Ecosamurai thin skinned? Yes. Ssssshhhhh! Passive Aggression monster around corner.

4. If they don't accept the rank, then just move on without putting money in their bank.

5. You bought, you keep it. (Time, money, sweat)

6. Trying to do Japanese things without being Japanese ain't gonna happen. You break 5 'unwritten' rules just walking in the door.

7. This discussion moved Aikido how much further? Yeah.

Scott Harrington
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