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Old 08-17-2017, 07:10 AM   #1
Ecosamurai
 
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Leaving an organisation and leaving your rank behind.

So, an interesting situation has arisen, the precise details of which I will not post here because I don't wish to cause awkwardness to those concerned. But, a number of people have recently left our aikido organisation and so far as the head of our organisation is concerned they no longer hold the dan ranks they were issued. Their certificates say X dan in X Aikido Organisation, not X Dan in Aikido, an important distinction. The notion is therefore the same as leaving your job title behind when you leave a company. This is the view of the head of our organisation who is Japanese and is in accordance with the Japanese way of dealing with those who have left a Ryu. An example might be O Sensei's Kyōju Dairi certificate in Daito-ryu, that certificate says he's allowed to teach Daito-ryu as a representative of the Daito-ryu headmaster, but if he left the Ryu as he obviously did it means nothing.

That said, there is another way to look at these things, which is to view them as qualifications as you might view a degree from an accredited university. I have a PhD from a British university and they issued me with a certificate that says so. I've left that university but that doesn't mean I don't have a PhD any more. The issuing university does still have the power to rescind my award in the event that they found I'd been in breach of some guideline or something, but the expectation is that I can carry my title of Dr around with me anywhere I go, and that's what I've done.

It's an interesting problem, because those who have left are quite understandably displaying their former rank on promotional materials for seminars etc, and I've just commented on a facebook post to the effect that they don't have that rank any more. Doesn't mean I'm saying they aren't perfectly good people to learn from, nor am I refuting their years of knowledge and experience - at least that was not my intent anyway. I'm merely passing on the views of the man who issued them with the certificate in the first place, as I have some obligation to do being that I'm now one of the senior instructors in the UK.

I genuinely interested in what people's thoughts on the matter are.

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Old 08-17-2017, 10:06 AM   #2
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Post Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

My view is that rank is only relevant inside an organisation regardless if itīs an aikido organisation, a fraternal order such as the freemasons or the military.
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Old 08-17-2017, 04:29 PM   #3
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Hello,

When I began aikido, I discovered with some surprise that my first teacher, whose 3rd dan I had assumed was from the Aikikai, issued kyu grades from a different organization. I never took any grades and in fact my first ever grading examination was for shodan. This was several decades ago and my certificate came from the Aikikai and was signed by Kisshomaru Ueshiba. It was also numbered and later I found my number in the register kept at the Aikikai Hombu. I have remained with the Aikikai ever since.

Much later, my first teacher told me the reason why he issued his kyu grades from a different organization. It had to do with the measure of independence he enjoyed in working out his own way of teaching aikido. If he had wanted to maintain his links with the Aikikai while in the UK, he would have had to become part of the Aikikai organization in Great Britain, which he did not want to do. In fact, after he returned to Japan, the club he started did affiliate to this Aikikai organization.

I think dan ranks in aikido organizations are part of an ‘invented tradition,' to use Eric Hobsbawm's phrase. This is one aspect of the creative tension that exists between an organization and the individuals who comprise it. Way back, in 1948, the resurrected Hombu Dojo in Tokyo became a legal entity, but to achieve this, it had to become a democratic organization, with boards of directors and advisers. Doshu sits at the top of the pyramid, but the ranks are numbered in the name of the organization: the Aikikai Foundation.

This whole operation is what the Japanese call a tatemae, which might best be thought of as an operating practice, which the members of the organism responsible for the practice subscribe to in various ways. So, I hold a dan examination in my own dojo and send the paperwork to the Aikikai. After a while, the package arrives containing the diplomas, all bearing the stamp of the Aikikai and of Doshu. The tatemae allows a combination of several factors, all of which have evolved in some sense over time, but all potentially in conflict: Doshu awards the dan rank, but I myself hold the examination and sign all the forms; Doshu awards the rank, but it is issued by the organization.

Another metaphor for describing this practice in the martial arts is iemoto, and the present Doshu sometimes uses this phrase. The tatemae here is that the iemoto (a person) is the living embodiment of all the aspects of the art, but the person also needs the system and the other individuals who support the system.

Both the tatemae, in general, and the iemoto system, in particular, work and are effective because they are part of Japan's cultural furniture. Those who drop out might well do so for their own reasons, but this is not something that the system really considers. In some sense the dropouts become outlaws, but are allowed to remain outlaws because the system does not need to take the extra step of punishing them. If the outlaws set up their own iemoto system and this becomes generally accepted, there is little that the parent organization can do. It is still there as the parent, but there is now a child: legitimacy is a separate issue.

As far as we know, Morihei Ueshiba did not expel K Tomiki when he devised his system of competitive aikido. Tomiki himself established his own organization and his links with M. Ueshiba and the Aikikai ceased to exist. Similarly, M Ueshiba himself did little to deal with the growing mutual antagonism between Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei within the Aikikai Hombu, but it was Tohei who left; he was never expelled and his 10th dan was never cancelled.

It seems to me that this general practice allows one to break with one's immediate instructor, but still remain within the general Aikikai, which is what I have done. I am independent, in the sense that I am no longer affiliated to any local aikido organization, but still hold grading examinations and receive diplomas from the Aikikai. However, I was very careful to keep Doshu informed during this process and secure his consent for the steps I took. In fact, it is not so unusual and such fragmentation occurs quite frequently. I never found it necessary even to consider the matter of formally breaking with the Aikikai and giving my own ranks.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 08-17-2017, 05:31 PM   #4
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Tohei who left; he was never expelled and his 10th dan was never cancelled.
My understanding is that when Tohei left, though his 10th dan wasn't cancelled or rescinded in any way (the Aikikai would acknowledge the grade had been given even to this day), it was no longer of any relevance as he'd created the Ki Society, it was therefore his pleasure to award 10th dan to anyone he liked if that's what he wanted to do, as he was now outside the boundaries of the Aikikai. The legitimacy of any grades he issued would rely solely upon his own reputation.

So here we come back to my question, was Tohei a 10th dan after he resigned from the Aikikai? My understanding was that in the strictest sense he was not, because the 10th dan award was a part of the Aikikai's bureaucracy and he had left.

Put it another way, if the CEO of Apple Inc resigned tomorrow he's no longer entitled to call himself CEO of Apple Inc, and calling himself just CEO is nonsensical, CEO of what?. Nobody is denying he *was* CEO of Apple Inc and his CV/resume would quite rightly reflect that. If he went off and started his own company then I'm sure he'd attract plenty of investors because of his previous position. But if he were speaking somewhere and advertising the event, it's odd to advertise it as Tim Cook Apple CEO, it would surely be advertised as Tim Cook *former* CEO of Apple. Would it not?

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Old 08-17-2017, 06:13 PM   #5
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

That's a tricky situation. I'm probably a bit more familiar with exactly what you are talking about than some of the others here. The way I look at it is that if they claim they are teaching the aikido of your organization, then there is a problem. However, the rank they were awarded when they were with that organization is a part of their resume, and I don't think we can reasonably expect them to pretend that they never had it. So for example, if a person lists their resume as something like the following, then there is no problem.

1990 - Began aikido
2010 - Awarded 4th dan in Yoshinkan
2015 - Left Yoshinkan
2016 - Joined Aikikai

It's if they are relying on that grade as a current qualification that problems would arise.

As for the question about Tohei sensei, I think we view it the same way. A teacher that we both know, who left the Ki Society a while back views it like this, too. When you start a new organization, your rank becomes meaningless. You are the head of the organization, and therefore have no rank. You are the 会主. Like you said, it becomes entirely dependent upon reputation. In spite of that, we all know what rank this person was awarded by Osensei and what rank he was awarded by Tohei sensei. It's certainly not a secret.
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Old 08-17-2017, 07:14 PM   #6
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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So here we come back to my question, was Tohei a 10th dan after he resigned from the Aikikai? My understanding was that in the strictest sense he was not, because the 10th dan award was a part of the Aikikai's bureaucracy and he had left.
When you talk about the "strictest sense", I think this needs to be defined more clearly. Tohei's 10th dan was given, recorded in the usual way by the Aikikai, and never rescinded. In so far as Aikikai dan ranks do not lapse, it remains on the record, and this is regardless of Tohei's later activities.

Whether its existence needs to be acknowledged after his departure from the Aikikai is another, different, matter. I had a student from Yoshinkan who trained in the dojo. He had kyu ranks in Yoshinkan and I decided that he could test for his Aikikai shodan, even though he did not have any kyu ranks. I consulted the Aikikai and they had no problem with this. I do not know whether his kyu grades were centrally processed, but if he ever goes back to Yoshinkan, for whatever reason, his Aikikai dan rank will remain--and it will be up to Yoshinkan to acknowledge this, or not. His Aikikai dan rank can be cancelled only as a result of a request from me to Doshu M Ueshiba.

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Old 08-17-2017, 07:22 PM   #7
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

If I may interject here, Peter is 100% correct, but is missing part of the context. In this case, we are talking about instructors that run their own dojos, who have specifically resigned from an organization and rejected it. The head of this organization has basically said "good riddance" to them. The question is about whether those people can or should use the rank awarded by the organization they have specifically rejected to promote their dojo.
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:53 PM   #8
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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If I may interject here, Peter is 100% correct, but is missing part of the context. In this case, we are talking about instructors that run their own dojos, who have specifically resigned from an organization and rejected it. The head of this organization has basically said "good riddance" to them. The question is about whether those people can or should use the rank awarded by the organization they have specifically rejected to promote their dojo.
Hello Robin,

Thank you for the interjection. I have talked with shihans, now no longer with us, who were senior instructors in the Aikikai Hombu at the time when Tohei Sensei left that organization and started his own. He was chief instructor at the time, but the head of the organization, who was Kisshomaru Ueshiba, at no point ever said, "Good riddance" and I think there would have been a major issue if he had done so.

If we apply to Tohei the question you pose about people using the rank of the organization they have rejected, I have no evidence that he did and perhaps he would not have wanted to.

I think the context you refer to can be understood in different ways. I do not think that either Doshu or the Aikikai regard the dan rank as any kind of evidence of membership, which can lapse if the person ceases to be a member, or which can be cancelled for any particular reason. You become a member of the Aikikai through a separate process and, again, membership does not lapse: it stands, and the question of what happens if you start your own organization is not built into any scenario.

So, to my mind, the Aikikai is structured more like a religious organization, like the Omoto religion with which Morihei Ueshiba had strong links. Not far from my house is a branch of Seicho no Ie, which is an indirect offshoot of Omoto: the result of a fragmentation process very similar to what happened in Japan's traditional arts, including martial arts, where there is a break with the mainstream, for whatever reasons. There is no tradition of excommunicating those who break away: the situation is simply left as it is and in some cases the head of the breakaway group needs to emphasize the links with the mainstream, to assure potential believers of the new group's authenticity.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:03 PM   #9
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Robin,

Thank you for the interjection. I have talked with shihans, now no longer with us, who were senior instructors in the Aikikai Hombu at the time when Tohei Sensei left that organization and started his own. He was chief instructor at the time, but the head of the organization, who was Kisshomaru Ueshiba, at no point ever said, "Good riddance" and I think there would have been a major issue if he had done so.
Hi Peter.

Again, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I was merely interjecting because I am familiar with the specific situation that Mike is referring to. It has nothing to do with the Aikikai. I know that the head of the organization has made statements along the lines of "good riddance" and is very unhappy with the thought that these people are using their previous association with him for marketing purposes. I didn't mean to imply that Kisshomaru Ueshiba said any such thing at the time of the big split.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:23 PM   #10
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Hello Robin,

Thank you for your clarifications etc. I continued the discussion really in view of Mike's preoccupation with the 'strict sense' of the continued existence of dan ranks etc.

In Tohei Sensei's case, I think the fact that he received 10th dan -- and that it was the only 10th dan ever to be 'processed' through the Aikikai -- would mean quite a lot, regardless of how he regarded it after his departure from the Aikikai. As you know, there was a vigorous exchange of letters, but Kisshomaru never made any public comment.

Since you are familiar with the specific situation that Mike is referring to, I wonder if it is specifically stated anywhere that if you leave the organization, the ranks awarded to you during the time of your membership cease to be valid. This would really be the 'strictest sense' that Mike has in mind.

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 08-18-2017, 02:11 AM   #11
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Robin,

Thank you for your clarifications etc. I continued the discussion really in view of Mike's preoccupation with the 'strict sense' of the continued existence of dan ranks etc.

In Tohei Sensei's case, I think the fact that he received 10th dan -- and that it was the only 10th dan ever to be 'processed' through the Aikikai -- would mean quite a lot, regardless of how he regarded it after his departure from the Aikikai. As you know, there was a vigorous exchange of letters, but Kisshomaru never made any public comment.

Since you are familiar with the specific situation that Mike is referring to, I wonder if it is specifically stated anywhere that if you leave the organization, the ranks awarded to you during the time of your membership cease to be valid. This would really be the 'strictest sense' that Mike has in mind.

Best wishes,

PAG
I see.

It's not stated anywhere as far as I'm aware. In the strictest sense, I don't think the ranks become invalid as such. I think the issue that this person has is when people that have specifically repudiated the organization then use the name of that organization to promote themselves. As far as I'm aware, Tohei sensei never did that when he left Aikikai. His rank with Aikikai was no secret and nobody attempted to deny that he earned it, but once he left, it ceased to be that important. At least that's the way I look at it.
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Old 08-18-2017, 03:48 AM   #12
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
in view of Mike's preoccupation with the 'strict sense' of the continued existence of dan ranks etc.
I'm not sure a question honestly asked counts as being preoccupied but that's fine

Let me put it in a different context Peter, I believe your rank is 7th dan with the Aikikai (please correct me if I'm wrong). If you decided to leave the Aikikai and create the Goldsbury-kai would you advertise it as being Goldsbury-kai aikido founded by Peter Goldsbury 7th dan, or would you leave the 7th dan bit off?

PS - if Jun is reading this, I've just noticed a typo in the thread title, any chance you could edit it?

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Old 08-18-2017, 04:33 AM   #13
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

I think Peter would be entirely entitled to state his 7th dan was awarded by the Aikikai - why wouldn’t he, it was!

The people referred to in this thread, simply mentioned their rank they did not mention the old group they were part of. The group only has 3 dojo's remaining in the UK, perhaps they should look to why so many people are leaving, or have left, rather than trying to deride or tell tales on those who made the decision to go - perhaps it's that they were told they cannot play with others outside the group or perhaps it's to do with the reasons why a certain person was told to either resign or be sacked from the Tohei sensei's group and the reasons for this finally made them leave. Perhaps they also were not happy that if you organise a seminar with the head of the organisation you would be promoted by a few dan levels.

I know all of the parties involved (for the sake of openness) and have zero connection to the main topics of this thread as my dojo is connected to the Aikikai. The poster that brought up the main topic listed a few people by rank and not affiliation. Fred Bloggs (7th dan). This in no way is promoting themselves as being part of their old organisation IMHO.

It would seem that remaining part of this group means following very cult-like behaviours.

John.

Last edited by john.burn : 08-18-2017 at 04:41 AM.

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Old 08-18-2017, 04:49 AM   #14
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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I think Peter would be entirely entitled to state his 7th dan was awarded by the Aikikai - why wouldn't he, it was!

The people referred to in this thread, simply mentioned their rank they did not mention the old group they were part of. The group only has 3 dojo's remaining in the UK, perhaps they should look to why so many people are leaving, or have left, rather than trying to deride or tell tales on those who made the decision to go - perhaps it's that they were told they cannot play with others outside the group or perhaps it's to do with the reasons why a certain person was told to either resign or be sacked from the Tohei sensei's group and the reasons for this finally made them leave. Perhaps they also were not happy that if you organise a seminar with the head of the organisation you would be promoted by a few dan levels.

I know all of the parties involved (for the sake of openness) and have zero connection to the main topics of this thread as my dojo is connected to the Aikikai. The poster that brought up the main topic listed a few people by rank and not affiliation. Fred Bloggs (7th dan). This in no way is promoting themselves as being part of their old organisation IMHO.

It would seem that remaining part of this group means following very cult-like behaviours.

John.
Wow. I was trying to be discreet and polite, not naming names because I wanted to get a consensus of opinion on whether I was mistaken to have mentioned it in the first place, because if so I owe certain people an apology, but you go John, spew your poisonous half-truths show us what you really think.

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Old 08-18-2017, 04:54 AM   #15
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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The poster that brought up the main topic listed a few people by rank and not affiliation. Fred Bloggs (7th dan). This in no way is promoting themselves as being part of their old organisation IMHO.
This is where it gets tricky... 7th dan in what? Awarded by whom? The person that you no longer respect and that no longer respects you? What meaning could such a rank have and why would you advertise it? At least that's what I would think if I walked into that dojo. (Any "you" is used here in a general sense and is in no way directed at John.)

I'll ignore the finger-pointing because I don't think it would be helpful to engage with it.

Last edited by robin_jet_alt : 08-18-2017 at 05:01 AM.
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Old 08-18-2017, 05:07 AM   #16
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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Let me put it in a different context Peter, I believe your rank is 7th dan with the Aikikai (please correct me if I'm wrong). If you decided to leave the Aikikai and create the Goldsbury-kai would you advertise it as being Goldsbury-kai aikido founded by Peter Goldsbury 7th dan, or would you leave the 7th dan bit off?
I am not trying to evade your question, but, frankly, the possibility is so remote that I do not really know what I would do.

Consider the context. I am retired and run my two dojos as a retirement activity and also to keep me fit as I get older. I am also learning new ways to execute waza, which younger and stronger people might well find difficult. Apart from my links with the Aikikai, I am completely independent of any aikido organization. I do not think the Aikikai would ever expel me, for reasons I have alluded to in earlier posts, and so I assume that you are considering that I would decide to leave unilaterally and found my own organization. Since very little would change from the present situation, I find it hard to imagine such a possibility, compared with giving up aikido altogether in a dojo and simply doing my own private training. Since I am dojo-cho anyway, with shihan rank, and not under the control of any immediate teacher, I see no necessity to create my own organization: I am sufficiently independent as it is.

Anyway, thank you for the discussion.

EDIT. I should add that I have lived in Japan since 1980 and am unaware of the political developments of aikido in the UK outside some of the organizations affiliated to the Aikikai.

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 08-18-2017 at 05:18 AM.

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Old 08-18-2017, 05:20 AM   #17
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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Wow. I was trying to be discreet and polite, not naming names because I wanted to get a consensus of opinion on whether I was mistaken to have mentioned it in the first place, because if so I owe certain people an apology, but you go John, spew your poisonous half-truths show us what you really think.
If you wanted this to remain discrete perhaps you should have posted this without your name applied all over it. Did you recind your rank when you left your old teachers by the way? A lot of dojo have left your organisation due to being told what they can or cannot do, this is in no way a half-truth. Is it not also true that your were promoted because a 'lowly' 3rd dan isn't of appropriate rank host your teacher?

Should your teacher recind their ranks, presumably he'd also reimburse them for all the money they paid him? That'd only be fair, right?

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Old 08-18-2017, 05:30 AM   #18
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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This is where it gets tricky... 7th dan in what? Awarded by whom? The person that you no longer respect and that no longer respects you? What meaning could such a rank have and why would you advertise it? At least that's what I would think if I walked into that dojo. (Any "you" is used here in a general sense and is in no way directed at John.).
Isn't Aikido, Aikido? I dont generally mention my own teacher is affiliated to the Aikikai when creating a poster. A lot of groups are independant in the UK, and they award or recognise their own members as being of a certain rank, as we all know, rank is only relevant in your own group in anycase and I think many of the people posting here had none aikikai or other japanese teacher affiliation way back when.

Does it matter? If you're x dan you are x dan, doesnt matter who gave it to you.

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John

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Old 08-18-2017, 05:39 AM   #19
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

You know what? I wasn't going to do this because it never pays to feed trolls but I reckon the above deserves a response because of the rather poisonous insinuations made on a public forum. This will be the last I say on this subject, I really can't be bothered with mud slinging.

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John Burn wrote: View Post
The group only has 3 dojo's remaining in the UK, perhaps they should look to why so many people are leaving
Clearly you equate size with success, I don't. More dojos means only that you're good at empire building. Fewer dojos means a chance to focus on better quality of teaching. Just my opinion but I think it's quite a valid one, we don't need lots of dojos we need fewer good ones with good quality teaching. Easier to do that when those whose focus is already elsewhere have left to pursue their own interests rather than our shared ones. So having only 3 dojos is a bit of a plus for me really.

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John Burn wrote: View Post
trying to deride or tell tales on those who made the decision to go
I have not now, nor will I ever deride or tells tales on people who have left the organisation (unlike you who has come here to tell tales on a senior aikido teacher - see below), they are welcome to their choices, I respect them and wish them well. I appreciate that querying the dan grade of someone who has left could appear to be an attack on that person but that wasn't my intent. This thread on aikiweb was an attempt to see what the consensus of opinion was because perhaps I owe someone an apology?

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John Burn wrote: View Post
told they cannot play with others outside the group
There is zero restriction placed on me that says I can't go and train wherever I like or with whoever I like. The rule you mention is simply a reflection of the idea that you have one teacher who you try to follow as best you can, you cannot serve two masters fully. It was written down because some people were coming in to the dojo and saying "well I went to this guy's seminar and he does ikkyo like this, why don't we do it like that?" or stuff like that. If you say that in my dojo my answer would be "we don't do it like that because of this" if they persisted in asking the same question eventually I'd say "if you don't like what I'm teaching and want to train with someone else, then go, you're not learning anything here". Does that mean I can't go to a seminar with another teacher? Nope. But if I came back and asked my teacher why he didn't do what the other guy was doing that'd make me something of a prick wouldn't it? But people were oblivious to the fact that that was what they were doing and so it had to be written down for them.

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John Burn wrote: View Post
a certain person was told to either resign or be sacked from the Tohei sensei's group and the reasons for this finally made them leave
Insinuation and hearsay, you weren't there, blabbing your mouth off on the internet about something you heard from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone doesn't strike me as a particularly grown up thing to do.

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John Burn wrote: View Post
if you organise a seminar with the head of the organisation you would be promoted by a few dan levels
I'm interpreting this is a personal attack on me because my promotion to 5th dan loosely coincided with my hosting of a seminar (they were 8 months apart if anyone cares). So yeah it could look like that's why I was promoted, but it's not. I will point out that certain other people got promoted to 7th dan just before they hosted a seminar too, did they get theirs for hosting a seminar? Nope, they didn't either. I just hosted another seminar, but I haven't been promoted to 6th dan. So your point is just more insinuation and frankly, bullshit. I earned my rank, plain and simple. 5th dan is a reasonable rank for someone of 20 years experience if they've trained hard - and I have.

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John Burn wrote: View Post
It would seem that remaining part of this group means following very cult-like behaviours.
Frankly, accusations like that are insane, all we want is for people who value what we're doing to sincerely practice it, if they don't want to they are free to use the door and leave as many have. If that's a cult then I'm fine with that. But I think the accusation says more about you than me or anyone else I know.

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Old 08-18-2017, 05:48 AM   #20
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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John Burn wrote: View Post
If you wanted this to remain discrete perhaps you should have posted this without your name applied all over it. Did you recind your rank when you left your old teachers by the way? A lot of dojo have left your organisation due to being told what they can or cannot do, this is in no way a half-truth. Is it not also true that your were promoted because a 'lowly' 3rd dan isn't of appropriate rank host your teacher?

Should your teacher recind their ranks, presumably he'd also reimburse them for all the money they paid him? That'd only be fair, right?
You are a ridiculous man. As per my previous post, my rank is nothing to do with my having hosted a seminar, the fact you feel like slinging this shit around on the internet says everything anyone needs to know really. Done with this thread now.

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Old 08-18-2017, 06:04 AM   #21
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I am not trying to evade your question, but, frankly, the possibility is so remote that I do not really know what I would do.
Just a quick thank you for your input Peter, sorry this has degenerated into a slanderous cesspit because someone has an agenda against me personally. I was very interested in what you had to say, as usual.

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Old 08-18-2017, 06:15 AM   #22
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

Mike, the point is you mentioned you're one of the senior intructors in this group, it's easy for people to figure out who you're talking about. I didnt mention nor refer to anyone by name.

The genral concensus seemed to be, they have the rank, they never mentioned they were still part of the group. You also mentioned elsewhere you could have a word and have your teacher issue the paperwork to have them removed, but that you dont intend to do that. They'd still have been awarded the rank, I cannot see how this would even work. I mentioned what I did purely to show what the organisation they left is like, they're best out of it I'm sure. Both organisations will continue to exist and grow in their own ways.

I dont list my rank anywhere, I dont feel the need.

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Old 08-18-2017, 06:22 AM   #23
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Just a quick thank you for your input Peter, sorry this has degenerated into a slanderous cesspit because someone has an agenda against me personally. I was very interested in what you had to say, as usual.
I have no agenda against you Mike. I only met you the once, I think. I just happen to know many of the people that used to be in the organisation you're one of the senior teachers in and I know why people decided to leave and not just UK people. I dont think it's approriate you asking what the world thinks of them using their rank (despite them not mentioning any affiliation).

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Old 08-18-2017, 06:34 AM   #24
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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John Burn wrote: View Post
Mike, the point is you mentioned you're one of the senior intructors in this group, it's easy for people to figure out who you're talking about. I didnt mention nor refer to anyone by name.

The genral concensus seemed to be, they have the rank, they never mentioned they were still part of the group. You also mentioned elsewhere you could have a word and have your teacher issue the paperwork to have them removed, but that you dont intend to do that. They'd still have been awarded the rank, I cannot see how this would even work. I mentioned what I did purely to show what the organisation they left is like, they're best out of it I'm sure. Both organisations will continue to exist and grow in their own ways.

I dont list my rank anywhere, I dont feel the need.
The comment about the rank being rescinded was a direct response to your point made on Facebook. My comment was that I had heard it said verbally and that if having it written down was what was needed I'm sure it could be done. But why would I stoop so low just to win a stupid argument on the internet? It's madness.

I have never questioned their abilities, experience or the fact the rank was awarded in the first place. Now maybe I could've handled the question of it still being valid in the way it was being advertised better, I'll hold up my hands on that one. I really could have. I am genuinely interested in this as being one facet of how ranking works in aikido, if you ask me it's yet another example of how utterly stupid the dan system is. Your teacher is Japanese, why don't you ask him if he left the Aikikai would he still consider himself 7th dan?

Instead of doing that however you have jumped into a perfectly pleasant in instructive thread on aikiweb and libelled me personally. I could ask my teacher to write an email to the effect that my rank had nothing to do with having hosted a seminar, I'm sure he'd do it too, and then I could post it here to show your libel for what it is. But he's got better things to do so I won't bother him with it.
The most ridiculous thing about it is that by making that false accusation you've opened up the same bloody point being made about the guys you came here to defend! They too were promoted around the time they hosted a seminar!

This is pointless.

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Old 08-18-2017, 06:41 AM   #25
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Re: Leaving and organisation and leaving your rank behind.

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John Burn wrote: View Post
I have no agenda against you Mike. I only met you the once, I think. I just happen to know many of the people that used to be in the organisation you're one of the senior teachers in and I know why people decided to leave and not just UK people. I dont think it's approriate you asking what the world thinks of them using their rank (despite them not mentioning any affiliation).
Everything you've written here is a personal attack, so forgive me if I scoff at the idea that you have no agenda against me personally.

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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