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Old 02-12-2020, 08:18 PM   #51
Peter Goldsbury
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Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,260
Re: I thought ki was fake.

[quote=Peter A Goldsbury;354623]

Tohei goes on the explain the light meaning of Ki, and I will not go into such detail. For Tohei, ki is a life force, a kind of physico-mental-spiritual liquid, which one can feel. Indeed, one has to feel it, in order to use or 'extend' it. He then attempts to strengthen his point with a carefully selected group of Japanese phrases. One especially, ki wo dasu, is explained:
"If you believe that your ki is gushing forth, your Ki is really gushing out." (Ibid.)
I have checked all the bilingual and monolingual Japanese dictionaries that I possess and this phrase does not appear. I conclude that the phrase is not in common usage (but I will check this tonight in the dojo).

Well, I did check with my Japanese students about Ki wo dasu and they were unanimous that the phrase was not common Japanese.

P A Goldsbury
Kokusai Dojo,
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Old Today, 10:02 AM   #52
Avery Jenkins
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Dojo: Litchfield Hills Aikikai
Location: Litchfield, CT
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 161
Re: I thought ki was fake.

If you're going to try to make a scientific argument, these blog posts are hardly credible. Let's take a look at some peer-reviewed research, shall we?

Acupuncture: theory, efficacy, and practice. Annals of Internal Medicine.

Ancient Chinese medicine and mechanistic evidence of acupuncture physiology. Pflügers Archiv: European Journal of Physiology.

Both of the cited articles (and the peer-reviewed research which they cite) point to the existence of qi. The latter article, in particular, provides one possible framework for understanding qi from a Western medical point of view. But that understanding is hardly necessary to employ qi. After all, we used aspirin for nearly 100 years before we figured out that it was an NSAID.

Quantitative evidence of the existence of qi, and its effects, exists.

Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Please scroll and have fun...

China, Chi, and Chicanery: Examining Traditional Chinese Medicine and Chi Theory
2 Feature
3 Peter Huston
4 Skeptical Inquirer Volume 19.5, September / October 1995

https://www.csicop.org/si/show/china..._theo#foot er

The Roots of Qi - CSI - Committee for Skeptical Inquiry


Claims of Chi: Besting a Tai Chi Master
Investigative Files
Joe Nickell
Skeptical Inquirer Volume 41.1, January/February 2017



Avery Jenkins
Author of Dark River, to be released in Oct. 2020
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Old Today, 01:57 PM   #53
Dojo: Kyu Shin Do Aikido/Auckland
Location: Auckland
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 22
New Zealand
Re: I thought ki was fake.

David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Aiki Taiso is for developing Ki. Doing Aiki Taiso coordinates the nervous system (network of electrical signals) with the Facia ( network of mechanical signals) using the Mind (cognitive features of the brain). As the coordination progresses the cognitive features are used less and less (relaxation).
Indeed, aiki taiso is used as a means to practise mind-body coordination while moving (it is all too easy to do it while standing or sitting). During classes, various tests are used to ensure coordination and relaxation throughout the movements.

Thus, they are not mere physical movements, and there is little point in mimicking them off videos or books. One must also incorporate the mental element, which may consist of a visualisation of extending ki or allowing weight to settle. Ultimately, they become a feeling which one taps into.

Very importantly, aiki taiso should be seen as components of aikido movements. By learning to perform the various aiki taiso exercises - with the right feeling - aikido movements can become more relaxed, minimising effort and improving effectiveness.

For example Ude Mawashi Undo (Arm Swinging exercise) is a practice of dropping the arms using only gravity (ie not pushing down or not holding up). When applied in aikido movements like ikkyo, kokyunage or iriminage, these techniques can be quite powerful. Observe Koichi Tohei using the principle extensively in his throws.

Best regards,
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Old Today, 02:54 PM   #54
Dojo: Kyu Shin Do Aikido/Auckland
Location: Auckland
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 22
New Zealand
Re: I thought ki was fake.

David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I hope you are enough of a rational adult not to jump off any cliffs.

I have not jumped off any cliffs lately. The point I was making is that Castaneda's books have been inspirational without having to be strictly factual. This is where one needs to acknowledge symbolic learning as a potent transformative agent used for thousands of years.

You can find out more by reading Jung and others, but briefly, symbolic learning is a form of communication using myth, symbols and stories. It is said that dreams are a similar form of communication from the unconscious to the conscious mind. My understanding is that they contain heuristic knowledge that is extra-rationally triggered in the prepared mind.

Many teachers like Morihei Ueshiba used symbolic language to convey their understanding. I am not sure why it was disregarded in Ueshiba's case, but maybe his students felt it was not in accord with the progressive ideas of a Japan that was rapidly entering a technological - and rational - age.

One of Don Juan's lessons was "Stopping the World," getting Castaneda to interrupt his continuous stream of consciousness. This stream usually consists of habitual thoughts, beliefs and self-talk that make up what we assume to be the rational mind, and forms our idea of the world. In Castaneda's case, his academic arrogance was preventing him from understanding Don Juan's deeper teachings.

Ueshiba was said to have had at least two "Stopping the World" moments in which he experienced his very "real" connection with the cosmos, in which he said he was filled with a sense of awe and love. These no doubt transformed his ideas of aikido and what he taught.

Another of Don Juan's lessons is "Erase Personal History." I had a lot of difficulty accepting this one as a teenager, but now, coming to the other end of life, I so much realise how my fixed sense of personal history has shaped my mood, my beliefs, and my achievements throughout my life. I get the sense that if I had succeeded in erasing my personal history and its baggage of limiting beliefs, I might have accomplished more in my life...

I notice a lot of people insisting on rational explanations in this forum and other aikido forums. This causes them a lot of difficulty understanding and accepting ki. However, the Tao Te Ching says, "The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao, the Tao that cannot be spoken of is the Tao." I believe this paradoxical statement also applies to ki.

In order to gain understanding of ki and its application, I believe we need to allow "super-fuzzy logic" to exist, to allow an integration of symbolic knowing, felt embodied knowledge, and a rational acquisition and processing of information, to work together. It is not as easy as "ok tell me the facts": it involves a commitment to be open to lifelong learning and realisation. As one has these realisations through the course of one's life, we are transformed, our World is changed. That is the basis of mastery and wisdom.

Best regards,
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