|
|
Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.
If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!
|
09-28-2009, 06:27 PM
|
#76
|
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 106
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
...
As for me, I don't see much in the song that could be called POLICY. Rhetoric, yes. Things that probably many or most presidential candidates have said at one time or another, yes. But POLICY? nah...
|
Rhetoric or policy, not acceptable.
I have bolded the "policy" references:
Song One:
Mm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama
He said that all must lend a hand
To make this country strong again
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama
He said we must be fair today
Equal work means equal pay
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama
He said that we must take a stand
To make sure everyone gets a chance
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama
He said red, yellow, black or white
All are equal in his sight
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama
Yes!
Mmm, mmm, mm
Barack Hussein Obama
Song 2:
Hello, Mr. President we honor you today!
For all your great accomplishments, we all doth say “hooray!”
Hooray, Mr. President! You’re number one!
The first black American to lead this great nation!
Hooray, Mr. President we honor your great plans
To make this country’s economy number one again!
Hooray Mr. President, we’re really proud of you!
And we stand for all Americans under the great Red, White, and Blue!
So continue—- Mr. President we know you’ll do the trick
So here’s a hearty hip-hooray —-
Hip, hip hooray!
Hip, hip hooray!
Hip, hip hooray!
And can we put this thread to bed? As an aikidoist, you shouldn't be talking so much...
|
|
|
|
09-28-2009, 07:13 PM
|
#77
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
I have bolded the obvious "religious" reference:
Song One:
Mm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama
He said that all must lend a hand
To make this country strong again
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama
He said we must be fair today
Equal work means equal pay
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama
He said that we must take a stand
To make sure everyone gets a chance
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama
He said red, yellow, black or white
All are equal in his sight
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama
Yes!
Mmm, mmm, mm
Barack Hussein Obama
From this website, http://www.kididdles.com/lyrics/j007.html
Jesus loves the little children
Written By: Unknown, Copyright Unknown
Play Song
Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Black and yellow, red and white
They're all precious in His sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world
Whether you're rich or whether you're poor
It matters not to Him
He remembers where you're going
Not where you've been
Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Black and yellow, red and white
They're all precious in His sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world
If your heart is troubled
Don't worry, don't you fret
He knows that you have heard His call
And he won't forget
Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Black and yellow, red and white
They're all precious in His sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world
All around the world tonight
His children rest assured
That He will watch and He will keep us
Safe and secure
Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Black and yellow, red and white
They're all precious in His sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world
|
Go ahead, tread on me.
|
|
|
09-28-2009, 09:31 PM
|
#78
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
. You guys really want to take a swing at some of the "policies"?
|
As it has been stated before this thread is not about policies.
It is about a cult of personality. Don't try to redefine what the discussion is about.
David
|
Go ahead, tread on me.
|
|
|
09-28-2009, 09:45 PM
|
#79
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
Now the alleged religious part. Is it distasteful to you because you would like Obama to not look upon all races equally? You would prefer, perhaps, that he favors the African-Americans? Or is it distasteful to you because it perhaps unintentionally creates a comparison between Obama and Jesus? If that's your stance, then I'd say you have a legitimate argument.
|
It is distasteful because it deliberately tries to convince grade school kids that Obama is the same as Jesus by linking the song about Obama to a song about Jesus. I would feel the same way if there was an attempt to link Obama as the same as Buddha, Mohammed, Lao tzu, the Dalai Lama, Sister Theresa or the Pope.
David
Last edited by dps : 09-28-2009 at 09:47 PM.
|
Go ahead, tread on me.
|
|
|
09-28-2009, 10:45 PM
|
#80
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
Awesome! Now you have a case!
Now if the teacher had put the words to a different song, say, "The Star Spangled Banner" or "America, The Beautiful" perhaps we wouldn't be having this discussion right now! Ill-chosen song, that was. I agree!
|
No I did not say it was an ill-chosen song I said it was deliberate, so therefore we do not agree. Do not redefine what I said by posting something I did not say.
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
But notice that the message of the song isn't nearly as offensive as the allusion to Jesus that is implied by using the religious song as a model for the Obama song.
|
As far as this thread goes the message of the song is not the issue. It is about Obama's cult of personality. The linkage of Obama to Jesus to grade school kids is an attempt at this.
David
|
Go ahead, tread on me.
|
|
|
09-29-2009, 09:57 PM
|
#81
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
What evidence could you possibly have that would indicate that the teacher's main goal for the lesson in question was to link Obama to Jesus in the minds of his/her kids by deliberately choosing a religious song?,
|
Based on the similarities of the two songs.
What evidence do you have that is wasn't her main goal?
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
I have asked you before to define the term: cult of personality. What is it? How is it created? Who needs to be involved in the creation? Please consider doing so. And I think it would be a good exercise for you to do so in your own words, rather than to cut and paste from Wikipedia because, in the end, it's what you believe that matters here, not Wikipedia.
|
In a rational discussion the topic needs to be clearly defined for all sides to work from. The definition from Wikipedia is one that I decided to use.
"A cult of personality arises when a country's leader uses mass media to create an idealized and heroic public image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise."
In Obama's case it is his friends, supporters, political allies, the people who have something to gain politically and monetarily.
What reference material would like to use for a definition of "cult of personality "?
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
I'm not trying to put words into your mouth,
|
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
While you are doing this, I would like to ask you think deeply about how one incident at one school can be considered a sign of anything, much less a sign that we are heading toward a fascist state.
|
There you go again slipping in words that aren't mine.
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
Earlier in the thread you stated that there are more schools doing this, and I asked you to clarify, but you haven't yet.
|
More examples;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfhHH...ayer_embeddedu
http://realdebatewisconsin.blogspot....book-with.html
A mom complaining about a textbook from her eight grade son's school.
"My 8th grade son is in an advanced English class at a public middle school here in Racine, Wisconsin. I just found out that my son's new (copyright 2008) Wisconsin - McDougal Littell Literature book has 15 pages covering Barack Obama.
I was shocked - No John McCain, no Hillary Clinton, no George Bush - Just Barack Obama."
In part of a reply by a spokeswoman for the Racine, Wis., Unified School District.
The book
"... "probably is one of the most popular textbooks" in the country..."
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77957
David
|
Go ahead, tread on me.
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 07:37 AM
|
#82
|
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Jimbo:
I truly applaud your efforts ! There is a famous quote: "The heart has reasons of which the mind knows not of." It should be modified to "Political rhetoric has reasons to which a reasoned mind knows not of."
You are trying to engage in a reasonable and logical discussion with people who are simply locked within their political and personal mindsets. This is akin to farting into a gale wind and waiting for the aroma. That is why I simply stopped trying to respond to the nonsense.
Best of Luck!
Marc Abrams
|
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 09:48 AM
|
#83
|
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote:
Did a quick check of my kid's school.
Pictures of Obama in my kid's classroom? - No
Singing songs in praise of the great leader? - No
These things probably happen in a couple places. I doubt the practice is pervasive, certainly not to the Mao/Stalin level. The fear and angst seems excessive.
Mark
|
That's cause you're not a wing-nut, Mark.
You need to spend a lot of time watching Glen Beck and O'Reilly and Limbaugh. When you're really nutty, to the point of drooling, you'll understand the fear and angst.
David
|
"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 09:51 AM
|
#84
|
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
Offline
|
Re: President Obama's policy and ideology
Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
I think this is in reference to the supposed 'death panels' in health care reform, & the idea it is more cost effective to let the elderly die rather than waste money to treat them for a short time.
|
Right...I should have added Palin to that list.
Anyway, those are both Republican "ideas".
David
|
"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 09:57 AM
|
#85
|
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Would the teacher of acted this way if Obama would have not existed.....
|
....yeesh.
Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
...but the person leaving the scene of an accident would STILL behave that way, whether Palin existed or not.
|
That's rather questionable. The whole gas-sucking SUV phenomenon...the Palin bumper sticker...hitting a Prius...and leaving the scene....
Sounds like Palin fleeing her corruption charges as gov of Alaska.
It's a typical right-wing act.
David
|
"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 10:06 AM
|
#86
|
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Keith Larman wrote:
Clearly we have very different ideas as to what a cult of personality is in the context of political systems.
|
Of course. You say "consultation on care," they say " DEATH PANELS. You say "Liberty and justice for all," they say "SOCIALISM."
You say, "Congratulations, Mr. President," and they say, "WORSHIPPING A MAN!!!!"
But you know, you can still see "W...the President" stickers on cars, even now? And "W... still the President." And "W... still the worst President."
It's just crazy.
David
|
"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 10:23 AM
|
#87
|
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
But notice that the message of the song isn't nearly as offensive as the allusion to Jesus that is implied by using the religious song as a model for the Obama song.
|
I had a religious re-awakening in 1978, just when I graduated from college and over the next couple of years I read the complete Bible a couple of times, tithed to my church, attended regularly, visited other churches and contributed, and listened to "Christian" radio exclusively.
And then I began to notice something: many of the "Christian" messages were being weighed heavily to the political sphere. In particular, there was a guy named Jerry Falwell who was adding more and more specifically Republican content to his messages and as 1980 slouched toward History, the vast majority of that station's content became an almost unmasked cheer for Ronald Reagan. The "Christians" of the US voted out a Baptist minister in favor of a Hollywood actor who talked about Christianity but was really a big believer in astrology. And he was divorced and remarried--a thing that, in that day, was still highly frowned on by "good Americans". So the Christians chose that over an actual preacher and in fact, Republicans have been hijacking Christianity ever since to elect Presidents that are closer to bin Laden and Ahmadinejad than they are to Jesus, but they have consistently linked their candidates with Jesus and have tried unflaggingly to paint any democrat as a registered Satan-worshipper.
I find the substitution of Obama's name for Jesus' in the song to be in very bad judgment and taste and I would not do it, nor would I let it pass if someone I knew did it. Just as I have always called Republicans on hijacking religion to convince poor people to let the super-wealthy take their money, send their children to war and terminate their health coverage as soon as they desperately need it. What it really takes is low education to support that kind of thing, but it worked really well until Bush finally drove the economy lower than the Titanic.
Best to you.
David
|
"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 10:24 AM
|
#88
|
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 695
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
If someone (think: james bond super-villan) wanted to divide America; I do not think they could have defined a better program than what we now see unfolding..
I find it sad.
|
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 10:32 AM
|
#89
|
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
Without reason, perhaps the loudest voice (or most frequent poster) wins the argument.
|
There's no winning, unfortunately, and even getting the last word in is not worth much.
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
By introducing logic and reasoning into this argument, I hope to expose the claim as unjustifiable, if not to David himself, then to others who peruse the board. At least, they can decide for themselves if the argument is worthy.
|
To the wing-nuts, you will never prove anything and they will take the wispiest, most demented ravings as absolute proof of ideas that would embarrass the really insane. Anyone with any sense just looks for the little "two cents" icon and knows it's a screwball argument.
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
For me, then, this is just an exercise--a way to practice the logic and reasoning skills I've learned. But it's funny how many principles of Aikido have come into play here: calmness, dispassion, balance, staying centered, etc.
|
You're doing great, Jimbo.
David
|
"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 10:38 AM
|
#90
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
We will have to wait and see if just like the ACORN scandal, it is just a few "part time idiots" or reaches further.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews
David
|
Go ahead, tread on me.
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 11:36 AM
|
#91
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
Without reason, perhaps the loudest voice (or most frequent poster) wins the argument.
|
And after posting six times out of the last seven posts,
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
To the wing-nuts, you will never prove anything and they will take the wispiest, most demented ravings as absolute proof of ideas that would embarrass the really insane. Anyone with any sense just looks for the little "two cents" icon and knows it's a screwball argument.
|
David
Last edited by dps : 09-30-2009 at 11:46 AM.
|
Go ahead, tread on me.
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 12:29 PM
|
#92
|
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 106
Offline
|
Re: President Obama's policy and ideology
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Right...I should have added Palin to that list.
Anyway, those are both Republican "ideas".
David
|
What are? Letting old people die to save money & not waste medical resources on? That's actually the result of having nationalized health care, not an idea of the Republicans. Good try, though.
|
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 12:34 PM
|
#93
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
David,
Thanks for going along with my little argument up to this point. I take it, by your post that I'm quoting above, that discussion about the song is over, and you'd prefer to talk about ACORN.
|
Nope, the thread was never about " the song. " The title of the thread is " Obama Cult of Personality ".
No, I do not want to talk about ACORN in this thread. My reference was about giving the subject of "Obama Cult of Personality" some time to see if anything developes that would be relevant to the discussion of "Obama Cult of Personality" like what happened in the ACORN thread.
David
|
Go ahead, tread on me.
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 01:21 PM
|
#94
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
OK. I understand your contention to what I've written. Sorry about that.
Let me ask you then to clarify your concept of "Cult of Personality" while we wait for you to connect the incidents you've brought up to Mr. Obama, himself. Namely, what is the difference, in your mind, to being popular and charismatic, such as Mr. Kennedy was, and having a "cult of personality"?
|
No, I wish not to continue with you as long as you misrepresent what this thread is about or what I have posted.
I suggest to you that you start from the beginning and read the title of the thread and all the posts up to this point. Try very hard to understand what the thread is about.
David
|
Go ahead, tread on me.
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 01:26 PM
|
#95
|
Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
David,
I must say I cannot take what you say even remotely seriously because you don't seem to have a clue what a "cult of personality" is. I tried earlier to point it out, Jim has pointed it out yet again. And what is truly difficult to understand is why you seem to be willingly adopting a totally incorrect position. Even if you take every event you've posted about completely seriously it doesn't even remotely resemble a "cult of personality" in political theory. I'm sorry, but you can't just assume some "personal" meaning to the phrase simply because you don't like the guy or the behavior of others. "Cult of Personality" has a *well-defined* meaning in political theory. Your ignorance and unwillingness to even consider this is stunning.
I am not a major fan of Obama. I like some things, don't like others. I can deal with people making naive statements. I can deal with people making statements reflecting their emotions. But you are simply wrong due to an apparent lack of understanding of what the phrase means.
I agree that some go way overboard in their adulation of the man. But that does a Cult of Personality make. It has a specific meaning, David, and isn't something you can make applicable by simply saying it over and over again (contrary to what some talking heads on both ends of the spectrum seem to think).
Good god, man, take 10 minutes, look it up and try to follow it.
Then show me a concerted, top down controlled concerted attempt by the system itself to install hero worship at virtually every level of the political and social landscape. That would indicate an attempt at a cult of personality.
It's a top down thing, not bottom up. And certainly not bottom up by a few isolated incidents of over-the-top adulation. Or even if there were hundreds of them. It is an institutional thing, an installed, concerted, organized effort by the governmental bodies themselves to install this sort of mindset as a pervasive and all-encompassing thing. Quite frankly you would be *way* better off asserting there is a Cult of Personality surrounding O-sensei than Obama...
|
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 01:40 PM
|
#96
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Keith Larman wrote:
"Cult of Personality" has a *well-defined* meaning in political theory. Your ignorance and unwillingness to even consider this is stunning.
Good god, man, take 10 minutes, look it up and try to follow it.
|
Okay, where should I look it up?
David
|
Go ahead, tread on me.
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 01:46 PM
|
#97
|
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
|
You want to know if it's "idiots" and you post a link to Fox News?
Hmm. Seems we know now where the real idiots are.
Anyway, the guy who interviewed the pimp and prostitute did go to law enforcement about their visit, so that shows at least that he was oriented to the right side. And the pimp and prostitute are now being sued for breaking MA law by filming people without their consent. But wing nuts believe any means is okay for the achievement of their desired ends.
On the other hand, what does that have to do with a cult of personality? Just more irrelevant distraction from the truth.
David
|
"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 01:51 PM
|
#98
|
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
Offline
|
Re: President Obama's policy and ideology
Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
What are? Letting old people die to save money & not waste medical resources on? That's actually the result of having nationalized health care, not an idea of the Republicans. Good try, though.
|
Baloney. Good try, though.
There are no "death panels" in the nationalized health care plans. That is a republican fantasy.
There is no "letting old people die" in England, France, Canada, Japan, or anywhere else with a national health system. We have a lower mortality age than any of those countries because republicans back letting the insurance companies cut off people's insurance when they get really sick. It's the republicans and their love for corporations and their disgust with living people that has allowed insurance companies to deny treatments and terminate coverage for people who have never missed a payment in years.
Did I say good try? No. It was pretty lame, as I've come to expect.
Thanks for the illustration.
David
|
"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 01:52 PM
|
#99
|
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
....My reference was about giving the subject of "Obama Cult of Personality" some time to see if anything developes that would be relevant to the discussion of "Obama Cult of Personality" like what happened in the ACORN thread....
|
Relevant?
You'll be very old before this nutter topic becomes relevant to anything but a white jacket and a padded room.
David
|
"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
|
|
|
09-30-2009, 01:55 PM
|
#100
|
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
Offline
|
Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
I suggest to you that you start from the beginning and read the title of the thread and all the posts up to this point. Try very hard to understand what the thread is about.
|
Much quicker: just cue the theme music from "The Twilight Zone" and your topic is put in complete perspective.
David
|
"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:28 AM.
|
vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
|
|