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Old 01-25-2003, 01:47 PM   #26
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Baltimore
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Excellent questions, Ahmad. I'm not sure they have 'easy' answers, but they do have some sort of 'standard' answers.

If you move at the right time, they say, you will not have to be fast.

If you move into (or along the path of) the punch and not away from it, uke will not try to track you because uke will think they are still hitting you.

Unfortunately, these are hard things to 'explain' using words. A few minutes on the mat might help me show you what I mean, but it's hard to capture. The feeling is not one of 'avoiding' the punch or 'hurrying,' though, so that should be a start.

One interesting comment I heard once was to try imaging where and when you want to be, and trying not to 'get yourself there.' Instead, if you just imagine that you WILL be there or, even better, that you ARE ALREADY there, your body does it for you. I didn't think it would work, but if I found the results very interesting.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 01-26-2003, 08:57 PM   #27
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
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'Teleporting', now that would be so cool. :P

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 01-27-2003, 03:21 AM   #28
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
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getting there

O-Sensei once said something to the effect that when facing one attacker, treat the situation as if you were facing many attackers. There are numerous benefits to training with such an attitude.

It helps us to maintain 360 degree awareness during waza, which also means continual readiness to face a new attacker at any moment. This leads one to keep the eyes and head up, also leading to better posture and ki extension.

Training this way, in the long run, helps one to make major improvements in waza, while also preparing one for multiple attacks.

In the end, even though we train one-on-one against a wide range of attacks most of the time, we can also always be training for multiple attacks.

There are numerous benefits to this way of training, but I haven't reached the level of teleporting myself yet. If such an event should ever happen, I hope I don't soil my drawers.

Last edited by mike lee : 01-27-2003 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 01-27-2003, 03:55 AM   #29
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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I think that it's not about teleporting. It's more about intending to teleport. If you intend to 'move' somewhere, you often do funny things like leading with your head and leaving your feet behind or leading with your feet and leaving your head behind. Something in your brain tells you it can't all move at once. On the other hand, if you just intend to 'be' there, and imagine youreslf just there, the motor system seems to produce a much more efficient movement.

Like I said, I didn't have much faith either, but I found the results very interesting. I don't think I teleported, but I did improve my technique quite a bit.

I like what you say about multiple attackers, Mike. I've heard it before, but never realy tried to internalize it. It seems worth trying.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 01-27-2003, 01:03 PM   #30
bcole23
Dojo: Eagle Rock Aikido, Ammon, ID
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I had the hardest time trying to catch real punches to do waza, because they almost always retract. However two things that Doran sensei said at a recent seminar were extremely helpful to me. (paraphrased and massively interpreted of course)

1. All the blend you need for tsuki is to try to see who uke is trying to punch. They are obviously behind you so look at them..

2. If you imagine a tsuki as a train, you don't want to catch that train when it's left the station and is full speed, catch it in the station when it gets back and is much slower.

(short rant about atemi's that has no place here..)

I hate it when you atemi someone and they just stand there. You shove your fist right into their nose and no reaction what-so-ever. DO PEOPLE NOT KNOW HOW TO PROTECT THEMSELVES ANYMORE!?!?<shift 1>!!

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Old 01-27-2003, 04:26 PM   #31
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Quote:
(short rant about atemi's that has no place here..)
Me too! (Although I always blame myself and not them, but that's just me.)

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 01-29-2003, 01:18 AM   #32
Abasan
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I'm going to try those things out tonight. I hope I don't bleed too much.

Anyway, about protecting yourself from atemi, what lines must not be crossed? I mean for instance some ppl atemi for distraction, you can basically put your hand in front of your face cause you see it coming and you know its not going to make contact.

But on the other hand, if nage is throwing an atemi that i can actually see, and its coming with force, surely as an aikido/uke I will be doing my darnest to keep safe... which may include returning with a technique, or plain atemi back.

Though, I've heard it said that proper atemi comes without you seeing/realising it, much less being able to block it.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 01-29-2003, 04:59 PM   #33
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
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atemi

Hi

my experience is that Atemi as a "mind catcher" has to reach the awareness of Uke.

Some people have good reflexes, they can sense a hard and fast atemi and react properly. Some people haven't been kicked in the head enough to have that reaction time. the typical result with those folks of 'benevolent' atemi is that they'll ignore it (as if it they weren't providing openings).

As nage you can time your atemi so that the lightbulb goes off in uke's head (shit I'm open) which ultimately gets uke to move into the technique. Surely you've noticed that usually uke's best defense path is the ukemi for the techique..

So sometimes atemi can be more effective slowing it down than the other way around.

You're probably right that striking shouldn't be something that allows for this reaction; but if that were all there was to Aikido technique then most technique wouldn't be required; I mean there's such an opportunity for mayhem all through the course of any technique ..

..ugh don't mind me..

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 01-30-2003, 05:05 AM   #34
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
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Interesting, and in resonance to the way my first sensei taught. Very2 benevolent way though.

My current sensei says that moving in is already an atemi. Of course, i may just be misinterprating what he's telling. But it does make sense in iriminage.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 01-30-2003, 12:44 PM   #35
Alfonso
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hard to know exactly what people mean. I've seen people conceptualize irimi as atemi and I'm sure I can rationalize that perspective;it's kind of what I mean but differnetly

Atemi (still in the mind catching sense) can be different in defree I'm sure. Whatever works. If you can react back to an atemi that you find is unconvincing then (if you were playing with me) I'd say go for it, but.. it's just as easy to let nage now you're not taken by tapping them through their opening. Just follow along; be aware of what you're seeing and let nage know what's going on (hopefully nage gets the hint). if not, train on yourself.

its training..

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 01-31-2003, 02:56 AM   #36
Abasan
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Ok thanks.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 01-31-2003, 11:00 AM   #37
kklipsch
Dojo: Soshinkan - AAA
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Quote:
Brandon Cole (bcole23) wrote:
2. If you imagine a tsuki as a train, you don't want to catch that train when it's left the station and is full speed, catch it in the station when it gets back and is much slower.
This metaphor captures very well, what I've always thought about strikes. That is, the hand is moving a lot, with a lot of force, the bicep and shoulder are not. So with a strike get out of the way of the fast moving hand, attack (or attach) to the bicep or shoulder and let that lead into the technique. So for a wrist technique we know that if you travel down the arm away from the body, the wrist will be there. This doesn't change for a retracted punch or an extended one (in fact for a retracted punch the bicep/shoulder is closer to the hand).
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Old 01-31-2003, 03:44 PM   #38
DGLinden
Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
Location: Orlando
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Back to the original post question -

Everything you do in early training - say the first 15 years - is about learning principle. Tsuki, yokomenuchi, kote gaishi, whatever, is only a prelude to understanding aikido. You have to do Something untill you start to get it. Aikido is formless. Train, train, train.... Do everything as if your life depended on it, but don't take anything too seriously. Enjoy.

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
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