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Old 12-12-2009, 07:33 PM   #26
Shadowfax
 
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
That grip though, does not involve squeezing with maximum pressure at the palm/hand...focusing all your Ki/energy in that one point I believe means you have opennings/weaknesses elsewhere.
lol it sure does.
 
Old 12-13-2009, 05:39 AM   #27
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
lol it sure does.
Indeed. But that's not the point of tai no henko. And it's of no use in the learning process. Carry a gun and not matter how hard uke's grabbing... Don't forget it's an exercise and a basic fundamental for many techniques. No matter if it leaves a suki somewhere else (as it does).
 
Old 12-13-2009, 06:49 AM   #28
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Re: Bending bones!

let me just expand on my statement. lol Sensei has had me purposely grab him and lock down in this manner specifically so he can show me and other students that this does indeed create weakness elsewhere. I never bring that grip out unless the person I am working with, usually the black belts, specifically asks for it. For us lower ranks that grip is simply not going to really help their, or my training, when we are still trying to learn the basic excercise.

Having had the experienced of being sent flying in spite of this kind of grip several times, I can honestly say that, yes it sure does create weakness elsewhere.
 
Old 12-14-2009, 10:40 AM   #29
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Re: Bending bones!

Let me answer a few questions for all of you.

1.) I am used to bruises and they are so frequent they may as well be tattoos. Most people in the dojo grab firmly, yet they also remain relaxed and move with you.
2.) The grip itself doesn't hurt. Uncomfortable? A bit. Painful? Not really.
3.) I am able to do the technique with him if my form is correct.
4.) So far I have only had this "bending bone" pain in my ulnar and radial bones for tai no henko with him (never happened with anyone else) and I have worked with him on several occassions with various techniques (which this has never happened before). Sensei pairs me up with a lot of the beginners (I think because he knows I can get tossed/slammed around without getting hurt)
5.) People frequently clamp down on my wrist/forarm and I have never had an issue.... up until now that is.
6.) In the case of tai no henko that night, once we turned, we were to stay there with our arms stretched out and settle for a bit so the sempai could walk around and check our form.
7.) I'm fairly certain that if I didn't have to stay in that settling spot for a bit it wouldn't have been too much of an issue.
8.) Not keeping my arm in the proper location and letting him pull it away would not benefit me or him in training, so I kept my form.

Anyway, after four days of rest, my arms are finally feeling better and they aren't swollen anymore. I think I am going to make it a point to work with this guy again Tuesday for tai no henko and see if I can't figure something out. Maybe it is me.

Thanks for the tips, ideas and thoughts. I will be taking some of them into consideration.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
 
Old 12-14-2009, 02:33 PM   #30
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Bending bones!

This thread reminded me about Takemikazuchi vs Takeminakata tale in the Kojiki.

Worth reading.
 
Old 12-16-2009, 08:50 PM   #31
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post

Anyway, I just sort of put up with it because I didn't want him to think I didn't like working with him, that I couldn't work with him because he is stronger and lets face it "Can you loosen your grip? You are hurting me." just sounds like I am wimping out..
Either tell him to cut it out, or don't work out with him. If he doesn't know you are hurt you can't expect him to change. If he knows and keeps doing it, decline to train with him. There is no shame and rejecting the training of some one who is belligerently disregarding your safety.
 
Old 12-17-2009, 10:13 AM   #32
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Lightbulb Re: Bending bones!

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Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Either tell him to cut it out, or don't work out with him. If he doesn't know you are hurt you can't expect him to change. If he knows and keeps doing it, decline to train with him. There is no shame and rejecting the training of some one who is belligerently disregarding your safety.
We can connect this to the thread about a muslim or an orthodox jew choosing not to traing with women?
 
Old 12-17-2009, 10:59 AM   #33
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Re: Bending bones!

I've often been reminded that you learn alot from the new people in terms of self defense because they attack in a way that is natural to them, and sometimes/oftentimes completely unexpected to tori. This is a great learning tool not only in the way you respond to their attack, but also the way they respond to your counter attack.

Also I think it's a good idea for people to recognize the difference between pain and injury.

Just my two cents.

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 12-17-2009 at 11:08 AM.
 
Old 12-17-2009, 04:48 PM   #34
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
Also I think it's a good idea for people to recognize the difference between pain and injury.

Just my two cents.
I agree with you, but when you feel like your bones are literally bending and you wonder how much more stress it can put up with, I think that is a bit more then not wanting to deal with pain. I'm all for feeling some amount of pain during training (I want to know what it feels like). Sure, there is a difference between pain and injury, but it can be a very fine line and both can occur at the same time.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
 
Old 12-18-2009, 05:53 PM   #35
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
We can connect this to the thread about a muslim or an orthodox jew choosing not to traing with women?
Maybe...
 
Old 12-18-2009, 05:59 PM   #36
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
I agree with you, but when you feel like your bones are literally bending and you wonder how much more stress it can put up with, I think that is a bit more then not wanting to deal with pain. I'm all for feeling some amount of pain during training (I want to know what it feels like). Sure, there is a difference between pain and injury, but it can be a very fine line and both can occur at the same time.
I think flat out, that's bad ukemi. A good uke should be able to keep connection without their fingers around your wrist, just the palm touching. Practicing connection like that really did help my connection from uke's side at least.
 
Old 12-19-2009, 05:46 PM   #37
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I think flat out, that's bad ukemi. A good uke should be able to keep connection without their fingers around your wrist, just the palm touching. Practicing connection like that really did help my connection from uke's side at least.
And what's the purpose of that?
 
Old 12-19-2009, 10:00 PM   #38
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
I think flat out, that's bad ukemi. A good uke should be able to keep connection without their fingers around your wrist, just the palm touching. Practicing connection like that really did help my connection from uke's side at least.
Mr. Villanueva,

There is no useful purpose. It provides nothing of value, except a false sense of accomplishment. It is a prime example of why others think that Aikido is worthless.

Just my opinion, based on many observations.

Mickey
 
Old 12-19-2009, 10:39 PM   #39
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Re: Bending bones!

Interesting, I do Xing Yi as well as Aikido so work a lot on hitting and power, yet I find using an open palm sometimes in my training for connection really helps on my feeling what is happening with my training partner and my own relaxation. I would not want to do that all the time, but just working on feeling connection and how my partner reacts is valuable too in my opinion.
 
Old 12-20-2009, 12:58 AM   #40
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Ki Symbol Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
... A good uke should be able to keep connection without their fingers around your wrist, just the palm touching. Practicing connection like that really did help my connection from uke's side at least.
My experience has been the same as Maggie's. Exercises like these have been very valuable for me.

It's fine if Mickey doesn't get anything worthwhile from them, but it's unfortunate that he dismisses them as useless for everyone.

Linda Eskin - Facebook | My Aikido blog: Grab My Wrist

"Heaven is right where you are standing, and that is the place to train." - Morihei Ueshiba
 
Old 12-20-2009, 04:38 AM   #41
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Re: Bending bones!

I agree with Michael here. That's training uke to fall, not to be safe. And that's training tori to get a feel of super-power that will put him into trouble later on th3 str33t!!

Don't get me wrong. Sensitivity exercises are great, Shinogi Undo and the like, but we're talking Tai no Henko here, isn't it?
 
Old 12-20-2009, 05:59 AM   #42
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Re: Bending bones!

To All,

First, had the statement been ..

" a good shite or tori should be able to keep connection without their fingers around your wrist, just the palm touching. "

Then I would readily concurred with the statement. Otherwise, I have already made my observation.

Train well,

Mickey

Last edited by mickeygelum : 12-20-2009 at 06:12 AM.
 
Old 12-20-2009, 06:37 AM   #43
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
I started classes on May 5th, 2009, and am looking forward to a very long and interesting journey.
Quote:
My experience has been the same as Maggie's. Exercises like these have been very valuable for me.

It's fine if Mickey doesn't get anything worthwhile from them, but it's unfortunate that he dismisses them as useless for everyone.
Ms Eskin,

I do not dismiss the training exercise described, for beginners, such as yourself. I use something similar with my students.

I hope you use it as learning tool as it is meant to be, not an enabler of live Aikido.

Also, your paraphrasing of the original statement changes the dynamic.

Train well,

Mickey

Last edited by mickeygelum : 12-20-2009 at 06:44 AM.
 
Old 12-20-2009, 08:50 AM   #44
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Re: Bending bones!

Mickey - Thank you for the clarification.

I understood you to say "practicing connection like that" serves "... no useful purpose. It provides nothing of value, except a false sense of accomplishment. It is a prime example of why others think that Aikido is worthless."

I'm not sure how I changed the dynamic of what you said. It wasn't my intent.

Cheers,
Linda

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Old 12-20-2009, 12:28 PM   #45
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
I agree with you, but when you feel like your bones are literally bending and you wonder how much more stress it can put up with, I think that is a bit more then not wanting to deal with pain. I'm all for feeling some amount of pain during training (I want to know what it feels like). Sure, there is a difference between pain and injury, but it can be a very fine line and both can occur at the same time.
Sounds like the man has a very strong grip. First I would ask him how he is able to grab so hard! The last descripion I heard of someone with a grip that bends the radius and ulna together...I believe that was a story about O' Sensei!

The bottom line in regards to your long term training, if you feel like you are going to be injured (whatever the situation) then just ask them (over and over if you have to ) to please lighten up. Sometimes people don't realize how hard they are being on their partner.
 
Old 12-20-2009, 08:14 PM   #46
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Re: Bending bones!

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
And what's the purpose of that?
To practice connection.

Aikido is an art filled with assumptions. One great assumption, that I think some people over look, is that Nage is to assume that Uke is not a hunk of meat meant for throwing. Uke is assumed to be an intelligent, practiced and committed martial artist themselves. Uke's job is not to get thrown. His job is to move in a way in which that does not break blending, not only for the sake of Nage, but for the sake of looking for an opening. He is to move in a way that will protects his center, while also continuously attacking Nage's center.
Uke's job is assure that Nage earns their right to be Nage. With proper connection and blending, Uke is in a prime martial spot to take control, counter and be Nage himself.
 
Old 12-20-2009, 08:19 PM   #47
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Ms Eskin,

I do not dismiss the training exercise described, for beginners, such as yourself. I use something similar with my students.

I hope you use it as learning tool as it is meant to be, not an enabler of live Aikido.

Also, your paraphrasing of the original statement changes the dynamic.

Train well,

Mickey
To tell Uke that they aren't expected to constantly be practicing Aikido themselves and just be a hunk of meat to be thrown, is neglecting a major assumption of Aikido: Uke is a trained attacker.
Keeping connection is about not falling behind in the technique. An Uke that falls behind will fail at attacking the Nage's center,and be dominated quickly. An Uke that can not attack Nage's center is not an Uke... just a hunk of meat.
 
Old 12-20-2009, 10:48 PM   #48
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
To tell Uke that they aren't expected to constantly be practicing Aikido themselves and just be a hunk of meat to be thrown, is neglecting a major assumption of Aikido: Uke is a trained attacker.
Keeping connection is about not falling behind in the technique. An Uke that falls behind will fail at attacking the Nage's center,and be dominated quickly. An Uke that can not attack Nage's center is not an Uke... just a hunk of meat.
Ms Schill,

If taisabaki and kuzushi are realized, uke is "just a hunk of meat", whether they are a trained martial artist or not.

Train well,

Mickey
 
Old 12-21-2009, 03:15 AM   #49
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
To practice connection.

Aikido is an art filled with assumptions. One great assumption, that I think some people over look, is that Nage is to assume that Uke is not a hunk of meat meant for throwing. Uke is assumed to be an intelligent, practiced and committed martial artist themselves.
So, if uke is not "an intelligent, practiced and commited martial artist", our Aikido won't work? That's a no buy for me. Also, your BIG assumption is that uke will blend, keep connection and look for a suki. What about an intelligent, practiced and commited martial artist that breaks, create space, look for a suki and hits? Your assumption is, most probably, that uke is an aikidoka too, not an IPCMA.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 05:50 AM   #50
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Re: Bending bones!

Uke attacks.
Nage (tori) responds by blending and taking complete control of uke ( kuzushi).
At this point uke should not have any ability to do anything.
It is all under nage's control.

Unless you are not training for martial effectiveness.

David
 

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