Respect

Mark Freeman wrote: That's the nuttiest idea I have ever heard! Sorry Neil, couldn't resist it respect Mark

Arrg. I knew it was only a question of time, for that other shoe to drop.

In reading and posting on this web I have come to the solid realization that 'tone', what my mother and my friends mother's used to ask us to watch in our voices, is difficult to grasp on the web. Most especially if you haven't met the person in person, as it were.
A pithy theologian once offered a couple of words that I reflect upon and I would like to repeat here for mine and Your benefit:

"Love makes all the difference between what was said and what was heard."

I take this this way; I have to take the responsibility, as the reader, to invest love into the moment whether I Know if it was placed there by the author or not. Love is my tool of deeper understanding and Hearing is my responsibility; no matter what is or was said.

For those who have trouble with the words Love or God, they can be easily replaced with the words Innocence and Truest Nature (or try out your own).

Just a few more for fun:

"Be keenly aware of the world's call to judge, and love more the call of God to come home."

"If there's something in the eye, the whole body feels it."

"It should be obvious that the evidence of love, unity, and wholeness in our lives will begin to disappear whenever we choose to be special and seperate."

These words were written by Hugh Prather, a United Methodist Minister. The meaning is written in your heart.

In love,
jen smith

Jun Akiyama wrote: Can I take a moment to remind people that, although this is the "Open Discussion" forum where any topic may be discussed, the same forum rules as in the other forums including "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect" still applies? I know that there are some "controversial" subjects that are currently being discussed which I think is great! But, please do approach your discussions with a modicum of civility, tact, and diplomacy as well as a healthy dollop of respect.

I wrote the above over five years ago and I want to remind everyone here in the Open Discussions forum to read it again.

I'll be honest and say that the manner in which people are posting here in the Open Discussions forum, especially in the political threads, has been very disappointing. The conduct I see repeated day after day, post after post, really makes me shake my head. Where is your respect? Where is your dignity?

Stop stooping to baiting each other with snide little personal comments. Discuss the issues, not the persons and personalities involved in the discussions. If you can't conduct respectful, mature discussions here on AikiWeb, please do me a favor and take your discussions elsewhere.

I'm really getting tired of it all, folks.

-- Jun

Fellow aikidokas,

If we are really aikidokas, we should follow the
teachings of O'Sensei. Sometimes we do bad
things but we still have time to correct them.

We dont need specific rules, the meaning of
Ai-Ki-Do speaks for it self, if we really are
aikidokas.

Sensei Dundee

Jose Dundee Santos wrote: Fellow aikidokas, If we are really aikidokas, we should follow the teachings of O'Sensei. Sometimes we do bad things but we still have time to correct them. We dont need specific rules, the meaning of Ai-Ki-Do speaks for it self, if we really are aikidokas. Sensei Dundee

Geez, that simple?

"we should follow the teachings of O'Sensei"

His own UCHIDESHI couldn't decipher what he was saying. You know so pat what Osensei's teachings were? As Peter Goldsbury demonstrates, we can't even figure out his words sometimes. Just what were his teachings? And all those UCHIDESHI who don't talk to each other, are they not really aikidoka? If not, who is?

"the meaning of Ai-Ki-Do speaks for it self, if we really are
aikidokas."

Sorry, but no. It hardly does, and tomes' worth of discussion just here demonstrate. And whether we're "true" Ai-Ki-Dokas is tautologous and argumentative. What that means is we're doing what YOU approve of. Why do you deserve this authority? Sorry, don't know that you do.

Neither Aikido nor Osensei end arguments and I'm really weary and irritated that folks still wave them as talismans to win arguments without dissent. My regard for aikido derives as much from the values I came to aikido with as those it purportedly offers. And frankly, where they may differ, I'm often as inclined to adhere to the former as than the latter, no apologies offered.

And as to Osensei as avatar of all good and sound; would you so quickly forget Osensei's abandonment, as Omoto folk felt it? It caused a lifelong rift between him and his cousin, theretofore his closest associate. What happened to harmony there?

How about the way he avoided contact with Takeda? What happened to harmony there?

What about the way he agreed with the verbal savaging given to Saito without demur, protest, or defense? Saito who'd devoted his life, and plaintively from her quarter, his wife's to Osensei's service?

Osensei deified? No thanks. He was a man, not a trump card.

Respect is a tough issue since, like everything else, it's defined subjectively.

So I guess it comes back, as always, to what intent is. If I can post a thought or reply to one and know that my intent is to simply share a viewpoint, then it's a non-issue. If my intent is to share a viewpoint but to also point out the "error" of the respondant's ways...then I need to stop, back up and consider what is driving me to do that.

But it's a tough cookie to be consistent with that. At least for me. You know...what about the situation where it seems so incredibly obvious that a posted viewpoint is just flat out wrong?

Well in that situation I can always remember the words of Quiet Hank..."Let other people be right", he would say as well as "All belief is valid".

So unless someone specifically asks for my opinion on whether I believe their thoughts to be screwy or not, then I will pretty much always be in the wrong when specifically addressing another person's beliefs.

Then there is the "it's all in the delivery" factor. To put forth a position that is at great odds with another's but to do it with absolute respect. That can be a good deal. But even that is not always received well.

And that's ok because it comes right back to intent. If I'm ok with my intent, I know it is pure and without the tarnishings of ego, then it matters not a whit what another's reaction to it is.

Yep. It happened right on this board awhile back. I went out of my way to be respectful in presenting a view which ran counter to that presented by a long time well known aikido person and he responded in a manner not reciprocal at all in the respect department.

So it's cool. I just don't need to engage that person in online conversation. If I do, then I need to seriously check on my intent because more than likely my only reason for further communication would be to satisfy some ego drive of "Ha, gotcha" type of thing.

I think where respect issues are the toughest to maintain is when posting in the political arena. Politics are seriously heavy stuff. And I do not support ignoring it just because it gets ugly occasionally. No...I think it presents a great opportunity for all people to overcome the challenges presented by conflicting viewpoints on serious matters.

So keep on posting. Even when it's tough!

Hi Dan,
Hope it's okay if I comment on this.
I appreciate and share the spirit in which you offer your post...but I have a problem with this

Well in that situation I can always remember the words of Quiet Hank..."Let other people be right", he would say as well as "All belief is valid".

Here's the thing.. I cannot with a clear conscience believe in this type of complete relativism. And especially when this bleeds into other areas.
My experience in this life so far shows me that there are right things and there are wrong things. When the right things are *provable* then they are facts. Some things are taken on faith; as the trail of established facts cannot yet touch everything that we can see, witness or consider.
I want to be right. If I am not right; and have made a mistake; then I hope I have the good sense to correct myself. IOW; I will change my mind. If everything is as equally valid as everything else...then where on earth does this lead? Maybe I misread this and am arguing the wrong thing here. That's not what you meant, is it?

And regarding the other part "All belief is valid".
Well, I appreciate that the spirit of this is in respecting everyone. Is it not? But how can all belief be valid? It seems clear to me that some people can believe some pretty absurd things....in what way exactly is that to be considered valid? And the limiting case of this argument is when something is against repeatedly proven and established fact. There is a flatearth society...surely they are having fun...but it is quite simply a *wrong* or mistaken belief, if earnestly held. Can you disagree with this? Following this train of thought; Is it rude to offer correction to someone? And on and on..

Maybe you don't mean it literally ("All belief is valid"), but maybe you do. I think, again, that this is offered in a spirit of loving respect. That is good! But is all belief valid? All true? Is this the best way to represent that idea (respect of others)? What does 'valid' even mean? Wouldn't something have to have been invalid in order to ontologically define it this way.

Anyway; you made me think...so this is what you get.
Cheers Dan.
Josh

I always think of this short animation when "respect" comes up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO3tscCAVJ8

Especially the part at 5:07-5:12. Respect came from ... ?

Jose, thank you for replying.

On the "let others be right". let me give you an example.

I'm a carpenter and I work with another carpenter. We're cutting some 2 x 4's. I yell out. Cut 'em at 27 3/4". A few minutes later he gives me ten sticks at 28 3/4". I say, No man, I said 27 3/4" not 28 3/4".

Then he says, Nope, you said 28 3/4".

This could go on and on or I can "let others be right" and say, You're right and I was wrong.

One can do this even when they are absolutely 100% positive that they are correct. The lesson is in the experience of actually doing it.

Something happens. There's a realization of what the need to be right is often all about and a realization of how much pressure is released when one lets go of that need.

I mean, why do I need to be right? Isn't it primarily an act of defending myself from some perceieved threat or stigma of "wrongism"? Why do I feel this need to defend myself? Is it about a seawrch for approval? Whose approval am I really after? If I have my own, is that not enough? And if it is enough, then why not simply let others be right?

The "all belief is valid" thing took me awhile to get. What Quiet Hank was telling is that belief - when sincere - is exactly that...belief. It simply is and as such is completely valid for the holder of a given belief.

I may not like it but I can't very well argue with it. This doesn't mean I can't present facts which might cause one to change their belief and it doesn't mean that I should be absolute in my own beliefs to the point of not listening to points potentially counter to my belief(s).

I tell you what, it significantly changed my way of seeing other people once I accepted it.

Quiet Hank, by the way, has been kind of a mentor to me for many years. Incidentally, he's an old judo guy from way back in LA. Santa Monica and other places. He doesn't train anymore but in his day, he was the man.

Today, he doesn't do competition and that's what got me to take a look at aikido years 6 back when I first started. I liked the no competition thing and still do, of course, since competition is all about being "right". A belif of mine, by the way. Perfectly valid but maybe worng? I don't know. All I know is that I may change my mind on it tomorrow. And if I do it in no way minimizes the belief held prior.

On the use of the term "valid"...hmmmm...I'm not much for the "dualism" deal. Can't have valid if there is no invalid, or can't have joy without knowing pain, etc. Nope. Yin Yang. Big, small, fast, slow, tall, short, right and wrong. Nope. Our universe has far more dimensions than just the two. This or that? I'll take the other thing anyday.

Hai, it seems as though respect is slowly leaving us like a memory fades with time. It is important for us all to remember respect is and always has been an intricate part of martial training and more importantly in Aiki training. And thank you for the welcome Jun.

Ai goes 1st, to study and the rest will fall naturally in its places, we all have same color of blood & same sky but different kinds horizon.

Dan O'Day wrote: One can do this even when they are absolutely 100% positive that they are correct. The lesson is in the experience of actually doing it. ... I'm not much for the "dualism" deal. Can't have valid if there is no invalid, or can't have joy without knowing pain, etc. Nope. Yin Yang. Big, small, fast, slow, tall, short, right and wrong. Nope. Our universe has far more dimensions than just the two. This or that? I'll take the other thing anyday.

Nicely said, Dan. Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I enjoyed reading them greatly.
Take care,
Matt

I won't tolerate your intolerance!!!!

I stopped reading here for a bit because I found it was getting me down.

Anyway...

Mauricio Camargo wrote: "In the several years after O'Sensei's passing, one high ranking teacher was making plans to split away from Hombu Dojo and start his own group. During those years, he and his followers said many negative and demeaning things against 2nd Doshu, but Doshu never made any comment - to the point that even his supporters were becoming very frustrated and disappointed in him. One day, I couldn't stand it any longer and went to Doshu and said, "Why don't you say something back against this person or defend yourself against such remarks, it is so painful to all of us to hear such things." Doshu became very stern and reprimanded me saying (literally), "We practice Aikido, we do not say bad things against others." And he turned and walked away." Here one of the reasons why I practice aikido

When I grow down-heartened by those disparaging aikido as fake, or exhorting us to be more realistic, or aggressive, such as can be seen all over youtube and sometimes on here, I pick up Kisshomaru Ueshiba's Spirit of Aikido and re-read

"These criticisms are understandable and come especially from those who seek thrills in victory and conquest or from those who have stereotypes of martial arts as consisting of shouting, hissing, kicking, hitting and destroying people." p.17

"Aikido rejects all forms of violence, justified or unjustified. Otherwise we would be no different from the forms of martial arts in which fighting and winning are selling points.
At the risk of seeming repetitious, I want to say again that aikido is a spiritual path and its ideal is the realisation of harmony and love. By disciplining mind and body, especially mind, it leads to the perfection of personality and humanity."p 54

Don't get me wrong, we train hard with ukes showing intent and nages showing atemi but nevertheless the above quotes are at the heart of the matter for me and I refuse to surrender my idealism.





Just realised I've necroed this thread (and not for the first time), was sure it was showing in "new posts", ah well

Hi everyone i'm back. I don't know how much of Jun's earlier critique was of me, but as a self awarded grade and someone who has been acrimoniously kicked from many clubs and forums, in aikido, it might of as well as. Well i have completed four years of university, and two years of living in the same house as my wife and child. I am also dealing with a mental illness, which another ranked player said was better than all of the black belts in the world, by itself. I have never been kicked from this site, so i think it is okay for me to return to it. I am a father and a husband, both of which makes me a man. I am a friend to my friends, and a martial artist to those with no ego. Which sadly seems to be few in this day and age. What do you think?

Gambatte kudasai!

John Robinson wrote: Hi everyone i'm back. I don't know how much of Jun's earlier critique was of me, but as a self awarded grade and someone who has been acrimoniously kicked from many clubs and forums, in aikido, it might of as well as. Well i have completed four years of university, and two years of living in the same house as my wife and child. I am also dealing with a mental illness, which another ranked player said was better than all of the black belts in the world, by itself. I have never been kicked from this site, so i think it is okay for me to return to it. I am a father and a husband, both of which makes me a man. I am a friend to my friends, and a martial artist to those with no ego. Which sadly seems to be few in this day and age. What do you think?

I think you have been walking a difficult path and I salute both your fortitude and those who have been part of your support over these years.

Thanks Janet. My main objective right now is getting this degree, and i have a place on the education masters if i do. As to Aikido, well i would like to see myself accepted back in to the old club at some point, and i am still on talking terms with both of the senseis, but whether this comes to past remains to be seen. We will have to see.