Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-24-2017, 09:59 AM   #26
fatebass21
 
fatebass21's Avatar
Dojo: Westminster Tenshinkai Aikido Dojo
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 281
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido = self-defense??? or self-defense = aikido???

Thanks for the link.

Chris Sawyer
Training day is every day
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2017, 12:25 PM   #27
GovernorSilver
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 108
Offline
Re: aikido = self-defense??? or self-defense = aikido???

Quote:
Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
Criminals usually don't attack in crowded trains.
I should correct myself here.

Groping is actually not that uncommon an attack on crowded trains - the perp usually takes advantage of the crowd, in hopes his victim (usually female) will not know who is groping. I honestly don't know what I would do in that scenario and sympathize with lady friends who have been subjected to it.

I had a good friend react to being groped on the butt at a concert... by turning around and punching the guy in the face.

There's also pick-pocketing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2017, 04:13 PM   #28
matty_mojo911
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 39
Offline
Re: aikido = self-defense??? or self-defense = aikido???

For what it's worth. I have no issues with people talking self-defence and Aikido in the same sentence. What I have a big issue with is when Aikido instructors, or any instructor of any style starts blabbering on about "...in this situation you should do this, as he will do that, so you do this..." "..And to demonstrate my point Johnny could you grab my shirt sleeve with your left hand.."

We can never simulate reality, and nor should we, but we need to be very aware of what we are teaching, we need to be very conscious of when we are teaching "un-tested" ideas and selling them as a real solution. How many dojos do this, countless probably.

Look, I've done years of Aikido and BJJ. BJJ is what it is, on top of in the dojo stuff I've trained dozens and dozens of law enforcement people, on control and restraint, when one says to me "does it work?" The beauty of BJJ (as anyone who has done it knows) it gives you a real, tangible confidence. I normally respond "yep and if you so wish I can show you." I then give them very clear instruction on how to tap out - as they will probably need it.

Within 15 - 30 seconds we end up on the ground (as I take it there), then probably 15 - 30 seconds later the person has tapped out or just given up. I've done this with little guys, big guys, you name it....then they say "holy crap you are amazing!!!" I then say "mate, I'm just average, I don't train enough, I'm just average at my club, there are plenty of people there who can own me....! Think on that."

So - what does this mean. In BJJ I teach from a position of knowing, a position of things being tested (well as close as one can safely come). Aikido can't do that, so the obligation is on the instructor to not say "..well in this situation you should do this...or that..." Because I would always ask - how do you know that?

Self defence and Aikido? Interesting question isn't it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2017, 08:10 PM   #29
Riai Maori
 
Riai Maori's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 154
New Zealand-Maori
Offline
Re: aikido = self-defense??? or self-defense = aikido???

Quote:
Matt Morris wrote: View Post
For what it's worth. I have no issues with people talking self-defence and Aikido in the same sentence. What I have a big issue with is when Aikido instructors, or any instructor of any style starts blabbering on about "...in this situation you should do this, as he will do that, so you do this..." "..And to demonstrate my point Johnny could you grab my shirt sleeve with your left hand.."

We can never simulate reality, and nor should we, but we need to be very aware of what we are teaching, we need to be very conscious of when we are teaching "un-tested" ideas and selling them as a real solution. How many dojos do this, countless probably.

Look, I've done years of Aikido and BJJ. BJJ is what it is, on top of in the dojo stuff I've trained dozens and dozens of law enforcement people, on control and restraint, when one says to me "does it work?" The beauty of BJJ (as anyone who has done it knows) it gives you a real, tangible confidence. I normally respond "yep and if you so wish I can show you." I then give them very clear instruction on how to tap out - as they will probably need it.

Within 15 - 30 seconds we end up on the ground (as I take it there), then probably 15 - 30 seconds later the person has tapped out or just given up. I've done this with little guys, big guys, you name it....then they say "holy crap you are amazing!!!" I then say "mate, I'm just average, I don't train enough, I'm just average at my club, there are plenty of people there who can own me....! Think on that."

So - what does this mean. In BJJ I teach from a position of knowing, a position of things being tested (well as close as one can safely come). Aikido can't do that, so the obligation is on the instructor to not say "..well in this situation you should do this...or that..." Because I would always ask - how do you know that?

Self defence and Aikido? Interesting question isn't it.
Here is a video of 2 BJJ experts from the UFC hospitalized. Watch and weep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6IKBsjbfGw

Motto tsuyoku
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2017, 03:39 PM   #30
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,843
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido = self-defense??? or self-defense = aikido???

Quote:
Derek Duval wrote: View Post
Mathematically I think what we are looking for here is a Ven diagram. Self defense (whatever that means) and aikido are both similar and dissimilar from each other. Their circles overlap but do not encompass each other.
Gotta go with my family here ..
Two different circles can have a shared over lap ..
Self/other, defense/offense, internal/external, soft/hard , etc.
Like Taoism or a mobius strip, different but inter-connected/dependent ...

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2017, 05:51 PM   #31
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,376
Offline
Re: aikido = self-defense??? or self-defense = aikido???

That video was about fighting.

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2017, 10:24 AM   #32
earnest aikidoka
Location: singapore
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 101
Singapore
Offline
Re: aikido = self-defense??? or self-defense = aikido???

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Aikido is a Japanese martial art founded in the 20th century by Mohihei Ueshiba based on aiki-jujustu techniques with a modern philosophy of establishing harmony from conflict.

Self-defense is a practical set of techniques that vary from person to person that probably has been around as long as people have been people and before.

Aikido is poetry, dancing, moonlight, waterfalls, and ocean waves. It feels good.

Self-defense is whatever the heck it takes to save yourself. It feels okay.

Aikido creates peacefulness in the practitioner.

Self-defense relies on heightened adrenaline and precise targets.

Aikido is a form of self-defense.

Self-defense is a bigger than aikido and incorporates an unlimited set of responses.

Aikido incorporates an unlimited set of responses.

Aikido equals self-defense. Self-defense equals aikido.

It depends on who you are listening to.

When I was teaching self-defense I heard so about the problem. For example: "He did this…." Or "She said this…."

Aikido training involves what I can let happen and what I can change: Myself. I can accept what is happening and make centered choices based on being in the now.

Self-defense = the same.

The techniques of aikido are more difficult to master than simple techniques of self-defense.

The self-refection of self-defense and the asking of hard questions: such as "What am I willing to do to defend myself?" and "Would I fight over money?" is also part of aikido.

The philosophy of aikido of least possible harm can be incorporated into self-defense with a commitment to training.

Aikido and self-defense both incorporate awareness training, stress being in the present and having good posture. Relaxation is emphasized in both….maybe more in aikido.

The difference is the goal, maybe. Aikido's being the restoration of harmony and self-protection, and self-defense being just self-protection.
They have a lot of similarities. I can also see why others would say the two practices are really different.

I learned practical self-defense skills to enhance my aikido training. I needed to develop confidence long before my aikido techniques were effective.

About ten years ago I let go of self-defense training to focus solely on aikido.

One enhances the other, but aikido emphasizes the solution and self-defense accentuates the problem.

Aikido = positivity and empowerment. Self-defense = negativity and empowerment.

Self-defense is good and needed. It should be taught in every middle school and high school.

Aikido is wonderful and essential. Students should begin in first grade and continue to study for the rest of their lives.

No conclusion is necessary.

I chose aikido, then self-defense and aikido and then just aikido. That is my journey…any thoughts on yours?
'Self-defence' is an erroneous foundation to base your point on.

When a person learns how to throw a punch, swing a sword, or drop a person to the ground, that person is learning how to disable another, permanently if necessary. And sometimes, combat may necessitate such a response pre-emptively, which is hardly 'defensive' in such cases.

Aikido is a method of disabling another person; principles which, once mastered, allows the aikidoka to dictate to what extent a person needs to be disabled.

Self-defence is a marketing tool.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2017, 04:22 PM   #33
RonRagusa
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 757
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido = self-defense??? or self-defense = aikido???

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
'Self-defence is a marketing tool.
Only if you're marketing.

Self-defense as an individual practice combines a combination of mindfulness, common sense and the employment of martial tools to help ensure ones safety. Self-defense goes way beyond the study of a particular martial art.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 11:31 AM   #34
earnest aikidoka
Location: singapore
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 101
Singapore
Offline
Re: aikido = self-defense??? or self-defense = aikido???

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Only if you're marketing.

Self-defense as an individual practice combines a combination of mindfulness, common sense and the employment of martial tools to help ensure ones safety. Self-defense goes way beyond the study of a particular martial art.

Ron
And thus, Aikido =/= self-defence
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 01:12 PM   #35
shuckser
Dojo: Brighton Aikikai, UK
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 34
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: aikido = self-defense??? or self-defense = aikido???

Aikido, for Tori, is about learning how to kill without actually killing.

One has to be so good at killing that ultimately no confrontation will ever demand that you actually do it.

Part of the challenge of that is to also learn to be willing to die.

Same deal for Uke.

Thus our most base humanity is expressed in our training. Our capacity for violence, and our capacity to make a choice.

I contend that the vision O'Sensei had for Aikido in giving "peace" to the world is not that it makes Aikidoka untouchable warriors of mercy, but that if everyone were Aikidoka then nobody would be left to consider violence a good idea in the first place. Yet we'd all still be able to satisfy our innate capacity to be violent, but without actually hurting each other, by retiring to the dojo every day.

I guess you can't fault the ambition of the project.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2017, 01:02 PM   #36
RonRagusa
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 757
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido = self-defense??? or self-defense = aikido???

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
And thus, Aikido =/= self-defence
Yes and no. Aikido is employable as a form of self defense. But aikido (or any martial art for that matter) is only part of an overall strategy of self protection. So while aikido isn't the the totality of what self defense is, it can be an integral part of a program of self defense if practiced as such, and therefore can be considered self defense.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 07:35 AM   #37
Ethan Weisgard
Dojo: Copenhagen Aiki Shuren Dojo
Location: Copenhagen
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 174
Denmark
Offline
Re: aikido = self-defense??? or self-defense = aikido???

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
I don't have the mathematical symbol for "does not equal," you know, that equal sign with the slash through it, but I'd put it in place in the middle between Aikido -- Self-defense

But, that is not to mean that in practicing/performing aikido one can not be practicing/performing self-defense either. I see these as two overlapping, but not totally so, spheres or circles of actions/activities.

I started out way back with aikido (8 years old) and went away, into what I would define as hard-core "hurt the bad man" martial arts. Was I learning self-defense? Sure... was I effective? Depends on how you define it, I believe. Could I defend myself? Probably depends on the "bad man" or men, it might sometimes be said, eh?

But, now, I practice/perform & teach aikido... and in the doing, I try to keep an eye on the self-defense angle, as that not only stimulates the mind of most students, and grounds others in the fact that what they are doing is a "martial" art, it's not just dancing around feeling good - this stuff can and does hurt people.

So, overlapping circles.
Very well put.

By the way, the kanji for kuzushi depicts a mountain above two moons :-)
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
If you could buy just ONE book about Aikido techniques, what would it be? Karol Kowalczyk Techniques 45 01-31-2014 11:35 PM
Yoshinkai - Beyond the "Hard Style" Label Susan Dalton Columns 8 11-16-2011 06:53 AM
Aikido - Martial Arts - Fighting George S. Ledyard External Aikido Blog Posts 54 09-18-2009 06:23 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 14 Peter Goldsbury Columns 38 07-31-2009 11:19 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 06:05 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:49 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate