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Old 07-28-2002, 04:50 AM   #76
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
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AN ANTI-MILITARY PRETORIAN?

Quote:
Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano) wrote:
To Chuck Gordon: If there are soldiers that I dont trust are those who come from your land.

Pretorian
KAMI : Chuck Gordon, remarkable martial artist, soldier and human being, is not a native of Germany, as you so hastily assumed.

And for a man with such a deep ingrained bias against the military, the nick you choose (PRETORIAN) is (to say the least) a bit weird...

Respectfully

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 07-28-2002, 05:44 AM   #77
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: BUSHIDO OR BULL?

Quote:
Ubaldo Alcantara (Kami) wrote:
KAMI : I made the subject of this thread the title of an excellent essay by Karl Friday. In short :

a) there never was a "Bushido Code of Japan";

b) the idea of Bushido was promoted by Inazo Nitobe and accepted and incorporated by Japanese Military in Pre-War Japan to bolster military fanaticism among youth and (of course) martial artists;

c) Nitobe, a protestant who lived most of his life in the USA, created the idea of Bushido based on what he thought were the samurai ideals. He idealized them as pure, strong, brave and extremely loyal to their masters, without any fear of death. In reality, to read the history of Japan, is to read about treason, greed, wickedness and unloyalty. He made an icon of the samurai, just as, in the West, we made an icon of the Knight Errants.

There are good books about this theme by G.Cameron Hurst, Karl Friday and many others.

Best regards
I think that there is a distinction to be made between reality as described by professional historians and the myth that a society takes for reality. Which one shapes tha society more? I would say the myth is more important than the actual historical facts since far more people sustain the myth with their beilefs.

Mark Twain had a lot to say about what he saw as a disaster when Sir Walter Scott published Ivanhoe. The book was immensely popular in the South and Southern gentlemen saw themselves as carrying on that tradition of chivalry which we know today didn't exist in anything like the form that Scott described. But that didn't stop folks from basing their behavior on the myth. It lead to an awful lot of needless death due to dueling which was Twain's objection.

The Japanese have been deeply effected by this myth and it is important to undertsnd this myth if you want to understand how those myths effect us as martial artists studying a Japanese system. It may be that some of the myth may be worth preserving and turning in to reality.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
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Old 07-28-2002, 06:11 AM   #78
Edward
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I agree with George Ledyard completely. As for Kami's "In reality, to read the history of Japan, is to read about treason, greed, wickedness and unloyalty.", I would like to say that history usually only remembers people who did outstanding things, not necessarily great, which includes treason and wickedness. There is no historical interest in the vast majority of the common Samurai who were loyal, even fanatic to their lord, and served him as is due, perhaps dying in battle, but who as such did nothing to change the course of history but rather increased political stability, giving thus no material to the historians to work with.
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Old 07-28-2002, 06:45 AM   #79
erikmenzel
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Quote:
Chuck Gordon (LOEP) wrote:
And what do YOU know about soldiers? I was one. My IQ, by the last such test I took was about 150. Yours?

Sorry for the digression, I hate when people talk out of their asses.
Me too. Ass talk should be eliminated.

When things like on hands experience or IQ are coming into the discussion I get kind of enormously sceptical.

First of all on hand experience often is no guarantee for deep insight into the subject. Quite often it is even the opposite. To many people claiming experience are hindered by their experience to show an objective view.

Second, I always get disappointed when people talk about IQ. Often they dont know what they are talking about.

The definition of IQ is still that what is measured by an IQ-test. Nothing more, nothing less.

There does not exist such a thing as a universal IQ test. Comparing IQ is as useful as comparing shoesizes. (I still wonder why shoesizes arent checked in job applications where IQ is checked. ) Another problem is the absoluteness people attribute to IQ. This is completely useless. Claiming IQ of 150 is useless if not the other statistics of the test are considered. What is the intended testing range of the test, what is the standard deviation. (For a test intended for bulk of the populous and with a standard deviation of 30 testing 150 would mean one is within the testing scope of the test and scores just a little above average. On a test intended for less gifted with a standard deviation of 15 testing 150 would just indicate one scored outside the reliability area of the test, in which case 150 just means "not less gifted". On a test for highly gifted with SD 10 testing 150 would mean one is in the top range of IQ over the world.) If one would want to compare IQ, which is ill advised anyway for IQ is quite a useless statistic even though society seems to think highly of it, it would be more wise to compare the population percentile you scored in.

Sorry for the rant, but I realy dislike this kind of nonsense.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
kokoro o makuru taisanmen ni hirake
Personal:www.kuipers-menzel.com
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Old 07-28-2002, 01:10 PM   #80
jimvance
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Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I think that there is a distinction to be made between reality as described by professional historians and the myth that a society takes for reality. Which one shapes tha society more? I would say the myth is more important than the actual historical facts since far more people sustain the myth with their beilefs.
Aikido is not a belief system, and should not rely on myth to bolster its innate worth. People used to think the world was flat too. That didn't make it any less round.
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
The Japanese have been deeply effected by this myth and it is important to undertsnd this myth if you want to understand how those myths effect us as martial artists studying a Japanese system. It may be that some of the myth may be worth preserving and turning in to reality.
The samurai as a social entity existed because of certain conditions. Understanding their actual historical context and how it differs from the existing myth is more important than propagating an inconsistent belief in justification of a noble cause. Why can't we see Aikido as relating to the human condition universally and decide to be noble from the virtue of our studies? Why must we rely on the fickle virtue of popular assent, mythological or otherwise?

Jim Vance
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Old 07-28-2002, 07:10 PM   #81
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To Kami: you should be mad at me because my disgresion, the one I still maintain. So, Mr Gordon is close to a genius, pretty good, exeptions are part of live.

"And for a man with such a deep ingrained bias against the military, the nick you choose (PRETORIAN) is (to say the least) a bit weird" You do ignore my militia position.

A guard can protect many gates, and some belts have no colors.

The thing that worries me is the fact that besides serious tradition keepers (practicioners, historical searchers, writers, etc.) what the mass accept and will accept mostly are derived from movies, animes and video games, creating layer after layer of virtual reality.

Pretorian
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Old 07-28-2002, 07:27 PM   #82
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Smile Re: Re: BUSHIDO OR BULL?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I think that there is a distinction to be made between reality as described by professional historians and the myth that a society takes for reality. Which one shapes tha society more? I would say the myth is more important than the actual historical facts since far more people sustain the myth with their beilefs.
KAMI : Dear Ledyard Sama,

It's always a pleasure to hear from you. You made me remember a book I once read : "I, CLAUDIUS", by Robert Graves. It's a romanticized bio of the Roman emperor Claudius.

I don't remember the exact words, so please forgive me but, more or less, Claudius had two history teachers. One day, they asked him whom he liked more. Claudius taught and answered :

"You", he said pointing to one of them, "teaches me a history full of heroes, of brave doings, of magnificent sacrifices. I'm thrilled by it but, at the same time, I feel things weren't really like that".

"You", he said to the other, "Your history is

hard and disagreeable but, all said and done, I feel things were exactly that way".

The teacher of myths was angry and he said that, if people were told the truth, it would disappoint them. On the other side, if they were told myths and heroic deeds, they would feel compelled to emulate them.

At the risk of being considered snobbish and elitist, I believe that the rabble will always be the rabble, manipulated by government, organizations, MA "masters" and "Holy Men".

And Buddha was the first to teach that we should "doubt all" and, above everything, trust and believe in ourselves.

That does not mean we should mistrust, disrespect or discuss with our teachers. After all, we wish to learn something from them. How could we if we spent our time discussing with them?

But God gave us reason to use it, not to believe in myths.

At least, that's what I think.


Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Mark Twain had a lot to say about what he saw as a disaster when Sir Walter Scott published Ivanhoe. The book was immensely popular in the South and Southern gentlemen saw themselves as carrying on that tradition of chivalry which we know today didn't exist in anything like the form that Scott described. But that didn't stop folks from basing their behavior on the myth. It lead to an awful lot of needless death due to dueling which was Twain's objection.
KAMI : Exactly! That's the problem with myth and myth-makers.
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
The Japanese have been deeply effected by this myth and it is important to undertsnd this myth if you want to understand how those myths effect us as martial artists studying a Japanese system. It may be that some of the myth may be worth preserving and turning in to reality.
KAMI : To understand something is not to believe blindly in it. But, of course, in everything there's something that's worth of preserving. And ideals independ of attainment. After all we, as martial artists, are always striving for perfection, even if we do know that we shall never atain it.

It's like sex : we shall never bed every woman in the world but it sure is fun to try!

Anyway, thank you very much for exchanging ideas with all of us.
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"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 07-28-2002, 07:35 PM   #83
Kami
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Cool MAD AT PRETORIANO???

[quote="Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano)"]To Kami: you should be mad at me because my disgresion, the one I still maintain.

KAMI : No, Pretoriano, I'm not mad at you and you have every right to your opinions. But what many people here have expressed is some disgust at your arrogant way of expressing those self-same opinions. That's all.
[quote="Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano)"]So, Mr Gordon is close to a genius, pretty good, exeptions are part of live.

KAMI : See? Did I said that? Or, being mad at me, you are riposting with aggressivity?
[quote="Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano)"]"And for a man with such a deep ingrained bias against the military, the nick you choose (PRETORIAN) is (to say the least) a bit weird"

You do ignore my militia position.

A guard can protect many gates, and some belts have no colors.

KAMI : You know best about that. If you insist in speaking in riddles, you do not wish to have answers.
Quote:
Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano) wrote:
The thing that worries me is the fact that besides serious tradition keepers (practicioners, historical searchers, writers, etc.) what the mass accept and will accept mostly are derived from movies, animes and video games, creating layer after layer of virtual reality.

Pretorian
KAMI : Well, that's exactly what you have been doing, haven't you?

Decidedly not mad at you

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 07-28-2002, 07:39 PM   #84
Chuck Clark
 
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Dispellers of Myth and Dogma beware!!!

The Believers will feed on the marrow of your bones.

Beware.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
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Old 07-29-2002, 02:27 AM   #85
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Setting 'Pretoriano' to 'Ignore' ...

Apologies for the ill-thought outburst. I was ill with a stomach virus and short-tempered already and let Pretoriano punch my buttons.

Yes, IQ is no real qualifier of intelligence, but is a handy yardstick.

Kami, thanks for the kind words.

And yes, Unka Chuck, dispelling myth is a dangerous thing ... taking away someone's fantasy is a lot like backing a pacifist into a corner.

Back to lurking, now.

Chuck

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Old 07-29-2002, 04:46 AM   #86
Kami
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Unhappy MARROW GNASHERS...

Quote:
C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
Dispellers of Myth and Dogma beware!!!

The Believers will feed on the marrow of your bones.

Beware.
KAMI : You misunderstand me, Sir! I believe in Father Christmas, in the Tooth Fairy, In the Good Intentions of the Aum Shinri Kyo and in the Good Will of Governments...

(And definitely, "Chucks" are not an endangered species...They're everywhere!)

Best regards

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 07-29-2002, 05:05 AM   #87
erikmenzel
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Re: MARROW GNASHERS...

Quote:
Ubaldo Alcantara (Kami) wrote:
You misunderstand me, Sir! I believe in Father Christmas
Me too, I also believe in Santa, but then again, when presents and candy are at risk you dont take any chances, do you??


Erik Jurrien Menzel
kokoro o makuru taisanmen ni hirake
Personal:www.kuipers-menzel.com
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Old 07-29-2002, 06:18 AM   #88
Kami
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Straight Face Re: Re: MARROW GNASHERS...

Quote:
Erik Jurrien Knoops (erikknoops) wrote:
Me too, I also believe in Santa, but then again, when presents and candy are at risk you dont take any chances, do you??

KAMI : None at all, Sir! We wouldn't risk that, would we?

Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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