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Old 07-24-2002, 03:08 PM   #51
wanderingwriath
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Hello all,

My understanding of how Aikido relates to the samurai is limited I admit, but here's my two cents.

We as Aikidoka are given to learn haragei without the sword. At the highest level of Aikido stands a man (O-sensei himself) who faught a duel with a kenjutsu practitioner and won without ever having touched him. There is the connection I see. We learn to sense other people on a level that was previously unknown to any but the greatest samurai who learned out of necessity. Simplified I admit. Reactions please? I'm just a whippersnapper after all.
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Old 07-24-2002, 06:16 PM   #52
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
Many of the Yakuza families are descendants of the Samurais.
Well, many Yakuza see themselves as descendants of the samurai, and there's lot of ritual and mumbo-jumbo that goes into supporting that belief. In reality the Yakuza were mainly drawn from groups of poor, landless peasants.
Quote:
Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
That's basically why the west forbid Japan to have a military force (accept for allowing their puny Japan Self Defense Force). Japan with a military force is actually quite scary, considering their history, national and international.
Not so puny - the world's third largest, in terms of military spending.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-24-2002, 06:32 PM   #53
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Quote:
Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote:
Not so puny - the world's third largest, in terms of military spending.
Where did the money go? They don't have that many man-power. Their arsenal is not that impressive. Or is there a secret undeground government military project that the world does not know about. Me and my conspiracy theories...
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Old 07-24-2002, 07:23 PM   #54
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To Chris Li: Hi! , See, when to study Hagakure it is important to do it in a proper manner, putting out Romantic states is one way, why? Simple, because that kind of books has been written in a TACIT Language so, you you get into the stuff or not, and then put it into your daily life, no midle stages here.

Pretorian
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Old 07-24-2002, 07:33 PM   #55
Kami
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Straight Face JAPAN'S TINY DEFENSE FORCE...

Quote:
Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
They don't have that many man-power. Their arsenal is not that impressive. Or is there a secret undeground government military project that the world does not know about. Me and my conspiracy theories...
KAMI : Well...To bolster your already devious mind, take a look here :

http://www.jda.go.jp/e/index_.htm

and see how puny and unimpressive is Japan's MILITARY Forces (disguised as Police or Security).

Talk about Hipocrisy...Supposedly Japan can't have Armed Forces...

Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 07-24-2002, 08:13 PM   #56
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Rule #1 Stay away from my wife and daughter.

Rule #2 Memorize rule #1.

The famous two heads rule, ha?

Rolling... :}
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Old 07-24-2002, 08:25 PM   #57
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Hmmm... never thought of the complexity of the JSDF.

With so many incidents in Okinawa between the US military and the Okinawan residents (and many other issues of course), I wouldn't be surprised that in the future the base will be closed (or reduced) and Japan will again build its military power.

Call me paranoid, but Koizumi's visit to Japan's WW2 military grave and the history book that stated that what they did during WW2 were righteous (did I spell that right?) are actually signs that the Japanese wants to rebuild their military power.

And Budo/Bushido lives on...

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
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Old 07-24-2002, 09:41 PM   #58
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Quote:
Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
Where did the money go? They don't have that many man-power. Their arsenal is not that impressive. Or is there a secret undeground government military project that the world does not know about. Me and my conspiracy theories...
It goes into the military . You may not realize it, but the JSDF is quite large and well equipped.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-24-2002, 09:44 PM   #59
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
Call me paranoid, but Koizumi's visit to Japan's WW2 military grave and the history book that stated that what they did during WW2 were righteous (did I spell that right?) are actually signs that the Japanese wants to rebuild their military power.
Japanese prime ministers have been visiting Yasakuni shrine for years. Personally, I don't see much wrong with it, most of the dead there are just common soldiers.

The history book problem long predates Koizumi and is actually slightly better than it used to be, although there's still a ways to go.
Quote:
Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
And Budo/Bushido lives on...
What does Budo/Bushido have to do with the first two things?

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-24-2002, 09:48 PM   #60
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Quote:
Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano) wrote:
To Chris Li: Hi! , See, when to study Hagakure it is important to do it in a proper manner, putting out Romantic states is one way, why? Simple, because that kind of books has been written in a TACIT Language so, you you get into the stuff or not, and then put it into your daily life, no midle stages here.

Pretorian
The Hakagure was written by a mid-level bureaucrat with no actual combat experience but with a bad case of romanticism for things that he had never experienced. Unless you read Japanese fluently you haven't actually studied the Hakagure. The reason? Only a small portion has actually been translated into English (or other foreign languages). Most of it is a long and tedious compilation of minor points of samurai etiquette.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-25-2002, 09:53 PM   #61
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Lightbulb

So, when you study Hagakure you dont find something Useful Ethical, Filosofical and PRACTICAL TO USE on those Fragments??

Then I tell you dont lose your time studyng it!

Those fragments are so simple to understand!

Personally i dont have any time for long and tedious compilations in jeroglifical japanese, but I tell you this, watch for truths in this kind of text you will find thousands of practical wisdom here and there.

Pretorian
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Old 07-25-2002, 10:02 PM   #62
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Quote:
Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano) wrote:
So, when you study Hagakure you dont find something Useful Ethical, Filosofical and PRACTICAL TO USE on those Fragments??
I liked the part about how to get the skin to peel off a decapitated head, but I haven't gotten a chance to use it yet...
Quote:
Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano) wrote:
Those fragments are so simple to understand!

Personally i dont have any time for long and tedious compilations in jeroglifical japanese, but I tell you this, watch for truths in this kind of text you will find thousands of practical wisdom here and there.

Pretorian
For example?

I know that Mishima thought that he had found a lot of good stuff in there, but I'm not sure I want to follow that particular path .

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-25-2002, 10:06 PM   #63
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You can find TRUTHS anywhere if you look hard enough.

The point wasn't whether or not some samurai wanna be pencil pusher had something to say but whether it reflected historical reality.
Quote:
Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano) wrote:
So, when you study Hagakure you dont find something Useful Ethical, Filosofical and PRACTICAL TO USE on those Fragments??

Then I tell you dont lose your time studyng it!

Those fragments are so simple to understand!

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-25-2002, 10:07 PM   #64
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
You can find TRUTHS anywhere if you look hard enough.

The point wasn't whether or not some samurai wanna be pencil pusher had something to say but whether it reflected historical reality.
Hmm, I should have said that...

You're right, I think we're veering off topic here.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-25-2002, 10:46 PM   #65
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Please respond "yes, I understand these kind of books and find its truths useful or not".

Samurai pen pusher, what is that?

Pretorian
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Old 07-25-2002, 10:59 PM   #66
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Quote:
Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano) wrote:
Please respond "yes, I understand these kind of books and find its truths useful or not".
Like Peter said, there's something useful in any book if you look hard enough. Taken as a whole, no, I think the Hagakure is to over-romantic to be really useful, although it is interesting in parts.
Quote:
Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano) wrote:
Samurai pen pusher, what is that?

Pretorian
What most samurai were from Sekigahara through to the beginning of Meiji. Check your history.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-25-2002, 11:15 PM   #67
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The phrase I used was

some samurai wanna be pencil pusher which admitedly might be difficult for a non-North American english speaker to understand.

wanna be - mean wishes he was

pencil pusher - means bureaucrat

to quote Chriss:

The Hakagure was written by a mid-level bureaucrat with no actual combat experience but with a bad case of romanticism for things that he had never experienced.

So to answer your question.

As entertaining fiction - No. Eiji Yoshikawa's Musashi is far better.

As a source of inspiration and window into samurai culture - No. I would give higher marks to Yoshikawa here too even though he was a 1930's newspaper writter.

What it does provide is a view on a certain type of romantism found during his time and has interest for that alone. Just like people study Edwardian and Victorian Aurther legends.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-26-2002, 01:00 AM   #68
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Chris and Peter,

You guys are a good team. Thanks. You both said lots of things I wanted to say and didn't have to.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 07-26-2002, 01:11 AM   #69
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Quote:
C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
Chris and Peter,

You guys are a good team. Thanks. You both said lots of things I wanted to say and didn't have to.

Regards,
Hey, you could have said them anyway and then we wouldn't have had to !

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-26-2002, 05:37 AM   #70
Kami
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Cool FACT AND FANCY...

Quote:
Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote:
Hey, you could have said them anyway and then we wouldn't have had to !

Best,

Chris
KAMI : This discussion shows how much people would rather believe in their fancies than in hard training, themselves and historical facts.

That's why followers of Aum Shinrikyo and Reverend Jim Jones would rather face suicide than face the truth.

A pity...

Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 07-26-2002, 08:08 PM   #71
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Samurai should be effective, obedient, practical skilled, pen pusher? burocrats, poets, artists, intelectuals?? Ha! , very rarely indeed.

Even today look up to soldiers, some of them are close to killing machines and also very large amount of them are such morons (very low ICQ) frequently found on low ranks...

Just try to figure it out how it was centuries ago.

Aikido and Samurai Inheritance Yes!!

Pretorian
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Old 07-26-2002, 10:03 PM   #72
akiy
 
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Quote:
Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano) wrote:
Samurai should be effective, obedient, practical skilled, pen pusher? burocrats, poets, artists, intelectuals?? Ha! , very rarely indeed.
I believe Chris and Peter were referring to the author of "Hagakure," not to the general population of samurai themselves.

It's a historical fact that the author of "Hagakure" was a set of recollections of Yamamoto Tsunetomo who "was a middle-ranked retainer of Nabeshima Motoshige who had been born into an age of peace but dreamed of glorious days that he really knew nothing about. He was a bureaucrat who fantasized about being a warrior, and turned himself into a self-proclaimed expert on proper warrior behavior. G. Cameron Hurst summed him up very well when he called him 'the G-12 who would be more.'" (Karl Friday, The Historical Foundations of Bushido}.

However, as they point out, most serious researchers of Japanese military history discard the "Hagakure" as fluff. Karl Friday remarks upon that work (as well as Nitobe's "Bushido: the Soul of Japan") here in the aforementioned collection of posts he wrote called, "The Historical Foundations of Bushido":

http://www.koryubooks.com/library/kfriday2.html

-- Jun

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Old 07-27-2002, 09:47 AM   #73
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Quote:
Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano) wrote:
Samurai should be effective, obedient, practical skilled, pen pusher? burocrats, poets, artists, intelectuals?? Ha! , very rarely indeed.

Even today look up to soldiers, some of them are close to killing machines and also very large amount of them are such morons (very low ICQ) frequently found on low ranks...

Just try to figure it out how it was centuries ago.

Aikido and Samurai Inheritance Yes!!

Pretorian
And what do YOU know about soldiers? I was one. My IQ, by the last such test I took was about 150. Yours?

Sorry for the digression, I hate when people talk out of their asses.

Fantasy is such a hard thing to lose.

Samurai inheritance? Hmm.

Chuck

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Old 07-27-2002, 10:18 AM   #74
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Hi !

In easter '98 Nishio sensei said that we should not associate ourselves with the samurais as the were the bullys of their day

and not nessesarily nice people,and he said in

2001 that the original sword which is the one

we are rediscovering in aikido,is a different sword than the samurais,it is a sword to cut

through to new solutions.

Yours - Chr.B.
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Old 07-27-2002, 08:01 PM   #75
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Thumbs down

To Chuck Gordon: If there are soldiers that I dont trust are those who come from your land.

You should agree with those three paragraphs.

Pretorian
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