Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Internal Training in Aikido

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-17-2017, 11:30 AM   #26
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 349
Netherlands
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

Just curious Demetrio, you don't train aikido yet you post often, what's your interest?
No rudeness intended.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2017, 11:50 AM   #27
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,247
Spain
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Just curious Demetrio, you don't train aikido yet you post often, what's your interest?
No rudeness intended.
No problem.

I trained in aikido (Iwama style), stopped training mostly because politics. Still think aikido is (or can be) a great budo and I like to read about the art from some people who posts here.

I currently train in a different art and what I learned in aikido has been very useful to date.

Regarding the aiki stuff, I believe training in it is worthwile however I think lots of people are putting too much faith in its real value or usefulness.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2017, 12:06 PM   #28
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 349
Netherlands
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

Thank you Demetrio for a clear and courteous answer. I would refer you to Chris's post and to Dazzler's in the "invincible aiki" thread.
My tcw. Let me qualify this by saying I'm a bit too old (64) and damaged to really go at it in a free sparring session but here are some performance indicators I have seen from this stuff when playing informally with judo and Chinese arts practitioners.
It is harder for people to move or throw me. This is both more solid and more flexible in response to imcoming forces. I can generate more power in locks, strikes and throws with less external movement. I find a greater ease of creating kuzushi on contact with far less reliance on locking up joints in order to disrupt balance. I can sense people's intent when they touch and can often counter faster without being physically faster. Ima m more able to penetrate to their center line without applying much physical force.
Bearing in mind that this is my subjective measurement (and response from others, also subjective) these are some of the outer factors. There are also some inner factors which may or may not be relevant such as the feeling of maintaining a much more neutral state physically and mentally, enhanced awareness of people and surroundings.
I am in Spain often in Gandía, maybe we can meet up and play?
regards
Alec

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2017, 12:11 PM   #29
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 349
Netherlands
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

A quick PS, I'm still busy with the experiment, using knowledge gained form several sources so I am no ones representative or fan boy, but there are some real experts out there ;-)

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2017, 01:30 PM   #30
Andy Kazama
 
Andy Kazama's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Atlanta
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 43
United_States
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
For those who are training in aiki development: How do you measure your increase in performance?
Haven't really posted in years, but I'm enjoying the thread so I will chime in. I especially love the fact that we are on page two and it hasn't devolved into tantrums! I would like to preface my thoughts by stating that I am still in the kiddy pool (4 yrs of training).
I think both qualitative and quantitative metrics are really what sucked me into this type of training. As a scientist, this is important to me! The solo work causes distinct body changes that several of us have noticed. These include things like: fascial thickening/tightening felt distinctly under the collarbone, stomach, back (upper and lower), & bottoms of the feet. Also perceptual changes like: being able to resist blunt training knives pressed forcefully into pressure points (e.g., floating rib), lower instances of bruising (I'm a klutz), and large increases in stability tested by push-testing and more dynamic situations (e.g., judo, push-hands, grappling). These perceptual changes can be easily demonstrated because one can turn "on" and "off" with little to no external tells -- meaning you and your partner can play with being in various states. Another great way to measure this is during seminars. We have a student who has been training this method for a few years. She returned to her old dojo for a seminar and her previous dojo mates literally asked us what we had done to her. They commented that she felt super solid. In short, she felt DIFFERENT.

It is important to keep in mind that these internal training methods have been around for thousands of years, going back to India. It's stuck around because it produces results, period.

Aikido South
(Facebook Page)
The basic fundamentals, refined to perfection, are your most advanced techniques.
-Bill Koll (1923-2003)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2017, 01:32 PM   #31
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,152
United_States
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
"I think there is a truth to this comment... we are not doing the same art. So now we get into the , "my mom can beat up your mom," stuff, right? Break out the Thunderdome... No. Rupert mentioned this in like the 2nd post - there's no need. Our stuff either works or it don't. We keep our eyes on our own paper and share what we've learned."

It seems like you are moving the goal posts here, Jon. I have met a couple of the gentleman that you are probably speaking about. I don't find how they felt to more "aiki" feeling than I am.

Our way works for us and our students...it involves development of correct feeling by learning to integrate mind/body in stillness and in movement. It also involves interaction with a partner which to me provides the opportunities to see what works and what doesn't. Does that happen in you aiki training?

I see some factions of aikido are seeking new ways that involve what we have been doing all along. If you or they are interested in aiki being found with Aikido please feel free to visit or dojo or to come to our seminars.

A good discussion involves give and take...an infomercial involves one way being the way.

There are a couple of posts related, so I'll try to explain...

I used to think, "we do that." Move from center, stillness in motion, etc. Then I actually touched someone working on internal power and realized I didn't do that work. I don't know if comparison here will work, but I would say that unless you move in the same circles I do, you are not training like I train. Most of our work is solo training exercises because I resolve aiki within myself. Most of our training involves high rates of failure and training outside of the dojo. Most of our training involves push tests, small body movements, and body exercises.

I am going to make some inferences, because I think they may represent some elements of circumstantial evidence that I have perceived over the years that influence... That is, things that we say we think we are doing, but maybe not doing and not supported by tangent information.

Ron mentioned that is he is not interested in improving our role in the fighting world. But internal power contributes to fighting. So, something that causes me concern is disconnect that internal power contributes to fighting; when you work in the internal power realm, you can feel a contribution to effectiveness. While maybe harmless in isolation, something that gives me pause tho think... Another example was one our earlier comments to provide proof of our research into internal power. Again, anyone who has been working in internal power has a lexicon of terminology and some familiarity with the research.

None of these things are problems, in and of themselves - we have all misspoke, or forgotten a word, or referred to something in error. But, when you look at things in its entirety... IP has a unique feeling that is absolute and separate from how most people feel. What if I were to describe a scenario where a mechanic told you that your gas-pusher needed to be replaced for $1000. That might give you pause. You'd think, "Wait, 'gas pusher?' I am pretty sure it's called a fuel pump." Does that means the assessment is wrong? Nope. Does it mean the mechanic is wrong? Nope. Does it mean you should look a little closer at things? Probably. If the mechanic said, "no, that's what I meant." Would it solve the problem? Maybe not. And before that spirals into something; no, I am not claiming internal power has a secret language, or decoder rings, or any of that.

Is that to say there is only one IP training? Nope. Is that to say that I am pretty confident we are not doing the same thing? Yup. Some training methodology is better than others and some training methodology is wrong. How else can aiki be studied across different arts, different cultures, and different time periods? But what I have noticed is there is a language and a culture that is pretty consistent across the board. But I think you hear a consistent message from IP people because the feeling is so distinguished that it cannot be mistaken. I agree.

I think Markus and Alec have brought up another smoking gun... internal power, while not complicated in nature, is actually pretty difficult to put into our current aikido training. So when I hear people say, "it's in my aikido." I think, "hmmm." That's not to say it isn't, but I know I am still working on that. Heck, when O Sensei managed to do it, it was so darn impressive the country gave him his own art...

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2017, 02:59 PM   #32
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
United_States
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Make Aikido Great Again.

No. really. I'm talking big-league aiki. So beautiful. Powerful.
You know, people don't respect aiki for how powerful it is.
Really. They don't. It's true.

But we'll make it great again. Aiki's gonna win. So much winning.
You're gonna get tired of how much winning. Really, No, it's true,

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2017, 04:37 PM   #33
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
United_States
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Funny you should ask, here's our first post to our new Facebook group, Budo Tanren:
Budo Tanren on Facebook.
On this in that post:
Quote:
"... it IS possible for tori (I prefer tori to nage as the "do-er") to move relatively freely, while in contact with a partner in such a way that there is nearly no change in pressure at the contact points, but that the partner is compelled to move."
The action you describe is, mechanically speaking, a tangent shear applied at right angles to the nominal direction of the contact pressure. Operative juuji (+), in other words.

This creates an unbalanced torsion (combined compression and tension stress in a spiral) in the structure of the opponent. When it grows large enough it exceeds the geometric limits of their stability compensation at the base. But this is not the only or even the most important aspect of the action. And it it has quite a few different modes of action from the same basic principle.

These actions are structural, and apply with changed stress in the body -- of which the movement is the expression, and NOT the cause.

Nidai Dosshu, much misunderstood on this point in his book, referred to this as "spherical rotation." Like rolling a ball with the flat palm of your hand the point of contact can move without altering the pressure. The "ball" of this structure is operating in-yo -- one side must rise and one side must fall. Whatever is stuck to the figurative ball in the yin (downgoing) side gets crushed (aiki-sage); whatever gets stuck to the yang (upcoming) side progressively loses connection the earth (aiki-age).

This spherical aspect is all though the Aunkai tanren -- the postures sketch the tangent surfaces of various conformal spheres: in front, above, below, or to the sides, etc. It is in fact shown in many of our formal aikido waza and aiki taiso as well. Though also equally misunderstood by many, they are without question there.

A related aspect and yet a different manner of this form of action is in Aunkai's six directions exercises. Basically they are working the interior surface of an expanding/contracting spherical surface of action. Anything neutrally in contact with the surface of the sphere (balanced push or pull action) when the sphere contracts finds itself suddenly unbalanced on the upper surface going down and inward and not neutral anymore. Likewise, when the sphere expands from neutral contact, the contact is now unbalanced on the lower surface, going outward and upward.

Another aspect of this structural spherical rotation is in those tanren and our waza, but it is harder to visualize -- the rotation of a spherical inversion. This is where the inside curve becomes the outside curve and vice versa. Surface buckling is the technical term. When I was a kid we had these cracker jack toys (yeah, old) : little flexible dished metal discs about half-dollar size (again, old). You put them on a firm surface and press the little dome flat with your thumb and it would stay briefly flat and then spring back to a reinverted shape and jump well off the surface. That's the structural action we are talking about here. (Kids today -- can't learn THAT on your smart phone games, now can ya !?)

It is seen in the attention to opening and closing of the upper cross, and of the lower spine/hips, and in the asagao form of spiral action from closed to open. This is powerful because it inverts structural stress from positive to negative instantaneously but continuously. That is, without reversal of the overall action, it passes from positive to negative (or reverse) through a peak cusp -- never going through zero.

When these forms of structural action get critical enough (i.e.-- in just the right way) even if not yet dimensionally large enough to take their base geometrically, it can be used to provoke reflexive arcs in the spine mediated by the muscle spindles and golgi tendon organs in the limbs and torso. These protect the body structure in advance of voluntary motor action from the brain, and result in either flexor reflex action (aiki-sage) or extensor reflex action (aiki-age), depending on the direction of the resulting torque (e.g. -- nikkyo or kotegaeshi in the first case, and sankyo in the second case -- or -- tenchi in the case of both acting at once).

Another image I often use of this tangent action in more dynamic terms is that of shears (scissors) In action, one side drops the other rises (in-yo) and whatever is between gets sheared. I find this particularly helpful in addressing strikes, in which one never loses contact or varies pressure and never conflicts or impacts the other.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2017, 06:14 PM   #34
RonRagusa
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 809
United_States
Online
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I don't know if comparison here will work, but I would say that unless you move in the same circles I do, you are not training like I train. Most of our work is solo training exercises because I resolve aiki within myself. Most of our training involves high rates of failure and training outside of the dojo. Most of our training involves push tests, small body movements, and body exercises.
It's true, Mary and I do not move in the same circles as you do. But we have been exposed to your some the training methods you employ on a limited scale and have also studied videos featuring Hiroshi Ikeda, Bill Gleason and George Ledyard, to name a few. What we have experienced and seen is in many ways similar to what we have been taught and practiced over the years. Even though there are similarities, I agree that we don't train like you do.

Solo training is also an integral part of our program. The goal is the same, realizing aiki within ourselves first and foremost; we call it coordinating mind and body. We will occasionally go outside the dojo but don't seek out other martial arts on which to test our stuff. Push tests and small body movements with static resisting partners play a large role in our training.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Is that to say there is only one IP training? Nope. Is that to say that I am pretty confident we are not doing the same thing? Yup. Some training methodology is better than others and some training methodology is wrong. How else can aiki be studied across different arts, different cultures, and different time periods?
Yeah. I'll buy that.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I think Markus and Alec have brought up another smoking gun... internal power, while not complicated in nature, is actually pretty difficult to put into our current aikido training.
While internal power training has been an integral part of our curriculum, from Tohei's days of teaching ki development thru S. Maruyama's modifying and exrtending it, linking up mind/body coordination with the execution of technique is something that takes no small amount of time to accomplish on a consistent basis. So I don't see Markus' and Alec's observations as a smoking gun.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 03:24 AM   #35
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 659
England
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
It's true, Mary and I do not move in the same circles as you do. But we have been exposed to your some the training methods you employ on a limited scale and have also studied videos featuring Hiroshi Ikeda, Bill Gleason and George Ledyard, to name a few. What we have experienced and seen is in many ways similar to what we have been taught and practiced over the years. Even though there are similarities, I agree that we don't train like you do.

Solo training is also an integral part of our program. The goal is the same, realizing aiki within ourselves first and foremost; we call it coordinating mind and body. We will occasionally go outside the dojo but don't seek out other martial arts on which to test our stuff. Push tests and small body movements with static resisting partners play a large role in our training.
Hi....as noted by others ....the thread is on page 2 and still nicely civil .....which is a positive change to see after my self enforced break from Aikiweb.

So 2 things here...

On Bill Gleeson, George L & Ikeda...well , these are all Aikido people first and foremost who have embraced Aiki/IP and are retrofitting the work to their Aikido. They are all big names which should speak volumes alone on whether the work has value, but since they are then sharing the work through standard Aikido toolset...then its no wonder really that much of it looks similar to the work of your teachers....who I agree will have been covering much common ground.

2nd thing - re Push tests...again I can see how this side of the Aiki/IP work described here fits very closely to similar work from ki fraternity. What I've not seen or hear of is anyone from ki side working solo exercises in the way I've seen done in Aiki/IP training to rewire the body.

What I have seen though it the way Aikido is split between 2 polar opposites.....on the far right you have the extremists.....The "real Aikido" of mainly eastern europe....using "aikido" in mock fights etc, doing what they perceived to be hardcore Aikido....but really working jujitsu limited by utilising the subset of Aikido techniques we use.

on the other hand we have the ki bunnies.....see the vids of ki masters getting punched in the face by guys with 5 minutes MMA experience.

Between these 2 camps there is a linear deployment of everyone else. We all have a place on the spectrum somewhere.

But now there is something else.....I've not seen it before and wouldn't have heard of it if it were not for Aikiweb.

What I see now is a joining together of the 2 ends of the spectrum.....work that previously looked ineffective, nice to do, parlour tricks etc....now has context and whateveryour personal motivation for training our art has a 360 degree holistic view that I've not seen in last 25 years.

Somewhere we may all have bits that map onto this circular vision....but honestly do we have the whole pie?....So this for me is the true value of this training.

My faith has been restored thanks to exposure to Aiki/IP....so yes - i am one of the faithful....

I hope that the current mood of this thread reflects a reawakened interest in this subject.

Regards

D
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 06:36 AM   #36
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,434
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

We don't have to re awaken because we have been doing it along. If you never leave the basics you don't have to come back to them.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 09:33 AM   #37
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
United_States
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

How do you teach kua rotation in your paradigm?

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 11:33 AM   #38
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 659
England
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

;-)

Some things never change.

All I say now to anyone who feels there is a little room for improvement in their practice then I still recommend looking further into this subject. Trust your own judgement as many others have before and continue to do.

Maybe one day in the future we can all meet together at the top of Monument Mt. and share a cup of tea....there should be plenty to go round as there are some very full cups about.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 12:04 PM   #39
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,434
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

I will after this, Ron. However, in response to the last reply.

I understand that many have found their aikido to be lacking. I have not and when I say that, I don't mean that my path is better than anyone's or the right path.

My cup is not full. I am looking and learning. I seek where I want to learn from. As so should you.
I will not judge or diminish your journey. I will respect my own.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 12:41 PM   #40
RonRagusa
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 809
United_States
Online
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
How do you teach kua rotation in your paradigm?
A couple of preliminary disclaimers: First, we don't use Chinese terminology, so please, when asking these kinds of technical questions, use English whenever possible. Second, the attainment and development of mind/body coordination relies less on anatomical manipulation than a whole body approach to finding a mind/body state that allows successful performance of specific exercises. Once that "correct feeling" is reached, the student is subjected to increasing levels of force in order to strengthen it. Given the above, a one-to-one correspondence between what you folks do and what we do isn't going to happen.

So I looked up kua and found this definition: "The kua is that ball joint inside, at the top of the thigh bone.", here. Assuming you are referring to teaching the student to use the rotation of this joint to generate power and act a a bridge between the upper and lower body (guiding the waist I think it was referred as) then here's a brief description of an exercise we do that might be analogous:

The exercise starts with nage standing in natural stance. Uke will then perform the most basic of push tests in our system, the push at the shoulder, just below the collar bone. Once nage has stabilized the incoming force, she will begin to "give way" to uke's push rotating her hips in a spiraling motion away from the force being applied. It's important to uke to keep applying pressure throughout and that nage keep her feet from moving. In this way, nage controls the movement, that is, she's not forced to move because she's being pushed, she's moving because she wants to.

When nage has reached the limit of her rotation she will then start coming back to her original position. New students will almost always make the mistake of trying to push back at uke from their shoulder and use upper body strength to power thru uke's push. This amounts to nage attempting to move back in direct opposition to uke's line of force and almost never ends well for nage. Experienced students have learned that if they loop back in continuous motion they don't have to retrace the arc and therefore don't have to encounter uke's force directly. The impetus for this comes from nage's center, which has been leading the upper body throughout the exercise.

I'm interested to know how you teach kua rotation in your system.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 04:36 PM   #41
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Aiki vs Aikido?
No. Ideally, Aiki should be a part of Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 04:44 PM   #42
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

An equivalent Japanese term for "kua" is "sokei orime."

One can use the sokei orimei as one step in an "internal" (as in "aiki") process to neutralize a frontal push, turning to take uke off-line. However, in a traditional aiki/internal approach this would not be done first; rather, force would be taken to the ground first to truly absorb and neutralize the push, then the sokei orime activated instantly after to take uke off-line. This is where a throw or take-down would naturally fit, as the absorb/neutralize and off-lining are an effective set-up for a finishing throw/take-down and pin or lock.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
A couple of preliminary disclaimers: First, we don't use Chinese terminology, so please, when asking these kinds of technical questions, use English whenever possible. Second, the attainment and development of mind/body coordination relies less on anatomical manipulation than a whole body approach to finding a mind/body state that allows successful performance of specific exercises. Once that "correct feeling" is reached, the student is subjected to increasing levels of force in order to strengthen it. Given the above, a one-to-one correspondence between what you folks do and what we do isn't going to happen.

So I looked up kua and found this definition: "The kua is that ball joint inside, at the top of the thigh bone.", here. Assuming you are referring to teaching the student to use the rotation of this joint to generate power and act a a bridge between the upper and lower body (guiding the waist I think it was referred as) then here's a brief description of an exercise we do that might be analogous:

The exercise starts with nage standing in natural stance. Uke will then perform the most basic of push tests in our system, the push at the shoulder, just below the collar bone. Once nage has stabilized the incoming force, she will begin to "give way" to uke's push rotating her hips in a spiraling motion away from the force being applied. It's important to uke to keep applying pressure throughout and that nage keep her feet from moving. In this way, nage controls the movement, that is, she's not forced to move because she's being pushed, she's moving because she wants to.

When nage has reached the limit of her rotation she will then start coming back to her original position. New students will almost always make the mistake of trying to push back at uke from their shoulder and use upper body strength to power thru uke's push. This amounts to nage attempting to move back in direct opposition to uke's line of force and almost never ends well for nage. Experienced students have learned that if they loop back in continuous motion they don't have to retrace the arc and therefore don't have to encounter uke's force directly. The impetus for this comes from nage's center, which has been leading the upper body throughout the exercise.

I'm interested to know how you teach kua rotation in your system.

Ron
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 08:35 PM   #43
RonRagusa
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 809
United_States
Online
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
...force would be taken to the ground first to truly absorb and neutralize the push
We have three methods of force stabilization; grounding, storing in the center for later release and returning immediately. For this exercise first nage would ground until stable then as she spiraled away would store, and release when coming back to the original position.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 08:50 PM   #44
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

There is also the option of propelling/expanding outward so that on impact, the person shoving is bounced away, or upward (depending on how you use your body to direct force), and you can open and close the sokei orime to direct the person offline and then perhaps use a downward compression/aiki-sage to drop them. My point (in the approach I was describing earlier) is that you would either first either absorb force from uke or propel force into uke just before opening/closing of the sokei orime.

The process actually seems simultaneous when done well; i.e., there is no apparent pause between receiving/acting on incoming force and activating the sokei orime. The effect is very shocky and disorienting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 10:38 PM   #45
RonRagusa
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 809
United_States
Online
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
There is also the option of propelling/expanding outward so that on impact, the person shoving is bounced away, or upward (depending on how you use your body to direct force), and you can open and close the sokei orime to direct the person offline and then perhaps use a downward compression/aiki-sage to drop them. My point (in the approach I was describing earlier) is that you would either first either absorb force from uke or propel force into uke just before opening/closing of the sokei orime.

The process actually seems simultaneous when done well; i.e., there is no apparent pause between receiving/acting on incoming force and activating the sokei orime. The effect is very shocky and disorienting.
That sounds like what you see Gozo Shioda do in a lot of his randori demonstrations.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 11:19 PM   #46
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 989
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
That sounds like what you see Gozo Shioda do in a lot of his randori demonstrations.

Ron
Occasionally, in the bustle of the street or work, people rush about and bump into me ... I usually see it coming, I could move; sometimes do, sometimes don't. When I don't, they just bounce off. If I don't see it coming, I get bounced ...

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 02-18-2017 at 11:26 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2017, 06:29 AM   #47
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 659
England
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
....... the attainment and development of mind/body coordination relies less on anatomical manipulation than a whole body approach to finding a mind/body state that allows successful performance of specific exercises. Once that "correct feeling" is reached, the student is subjected to increasing levels of force in order to strengthen it. Given the above, a one-to-one correspondence between what you folks do and what we do isn't going to happen.
And the lack of dialogue with “Us folks”...is a shame, possibly inhibiting progress of what should be a common albeit diverse art form.......its somewhat surprising given statements from your students that there is more than one way up Monument Mt. But if its never going to happen...so be it. For what its worth I feel that in excluding “anatomical manipulation” you miss much richness that is becoming more accessible as time goes by. This is not a criticism...If you are happy with your current position or skill level and still feel you are progressing then good luck to you.
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
So I looked up kua and found this definition: "The kua is that ball joint inside, at the top of the thigh bone.", here. Assuming you are referring to teaching the student to use the rotation of this joint to generate power and act a a bridge between the upper and lower body (guiding the waist I think it was referred as) then here's a brief description of an exercise we do that might be analogous:
The exercise starts with nage standing in natural stance. Uke will then perform the most basic of push tests in our system, the push at the shoulder, just below the collar bone. Once nage has stabilized the incoming force, she will begin to "give way" to uke's push rotating her hips in a spiraling motion away from the force being applied. It's important to uke to keep applying pressure throughout and that nage keep her feet from moving. In this way, nage controls the movement, that is, she's not forced to move because she's being pushed, she's moving because she wants to.
.....
I'm interested to know how you teach kua rotation in your system.
Given that correspondence isn’t going to happen between us I continue more as a sharing of thoughts than a conversation....but thank you for making the effort to look up the Chinese terminology.
Here the trigger word is hips....rotate hips in a spiralling motion. This is NOT what Aiki/IP folks do. So statements claiming that the Aiki work is what has been done all along are incorrect.
For me to accept this has been a major decision...my background is through Pierre Chassang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Chassang) who will remain the dominant figure and grandfather of my Aikido always. I can hear his accented encouragement of “Hips Hips” to this day.
But...in the interests of progress and adding a further dimension to my Aikido I’ve moved on. I know he will understand as he never expressed a view that his Aikido was the whole or that we should stop progressing.
So .....Kua rotation in my training has been taught as part of a whole system with steps to connect the body, steps to create a train a dantien or central core and steps to retrain the bodys response system to force. Not moving the bones but using “Intent” to work with internal connective facial tissues and at all times using opposing forces within ourselves to retain stability.
As a whole system we use this “anatomical manipulation” to create this powerful stable connected body....using stillness and push tests as a starter, but moving on to then use the same powerful connected body when in motion – going way beyond
Kua rotation is trained through, opening & closing, spiralling and a host of other “anatomical manipulation” exercises...all of which go way beyond moving the hip in terms of sophistication.
Well...I’m a beginner at this stuff – 5 years into working with internals people, so I’ve much to learn. But in regular Aikido i’ve 25 years experience much of it in a major uk city next to main railway station...which means lots of visitors and exposure to Aikidoka from around the world. I’ve travelled and been an avid course attender.....so while of course I’ve only met a fraction of the worlds Aikido population....I’d say I’d definitely be in top 10% if you looked at interaction with other Aikidoka across the global population.
My view....Aiki/IP training was the bit that was missing....those that think they have it already....maybe they have .....in which case lets just endorse the work regardless of who teaches it.
Infomercial over and out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2017, 06:59 AM   #48
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,025
United_States
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
That sounds like what you see Gozo Shioda do in a lot of his randori demonstrations.

Ron
Yes, he was using the same basic mechanisms.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2017, 08:42 AM   #49
RonRagusa
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 809
United_States
Online
Re: A defense of Aiki

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
And the lack of dialogue with "Us folks"...is a shame, possibly inhibiting progress of what should be a common albeit diverse art form.......its somewhat surprising given statements from your students that there is more than one way up Monument Mt.
I'm not sure how you reached the lack of dialogue conclusion from what I posted. The lack of a one-to-one correspondence (as in matching elements in set theory) I referred to relates to specific training methodologies, not an ability to exchange ideas. I assume that your quoting of "Us folks..." indicates displeasure. Sorry if that usage offends, it's a common group reference in the States. No offense intended.

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
For what its worth I feel that in excluding "anatomical manipulation" you miss much richness that is becoming more accessible as time goes by. This is not a criticism...If you are happy with your current position or skill level and still feel you are progressing then good luck to you.
I understand that you have found a particular method that's allowing you to extend the reach of your Aikido and that's great. As for missing "richness that is becoming more accessible as time goes by", I don't feel that's the case since the system I was brought up in and continue to teach isn't static. The system is continually evolving as we practice and discover new depths to plumb. And for the record, I'm never satisfied with my current skill level, there's always more to learn. As long as my current path provides me with new opportunities for growth I'll stay with it.

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
Given that correspondence isn't going to happen between us I continue more as a sharing of thoughts than a conversation....
I see what happened now. You read "one-to-one correspondence" as in direct exchange between correspondents. Sorry for the mix-up, that's not at all what I meant. I was referring to the direct comparison of training exercises between two disparate systems.

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
Here the trigger word is hips....rotate hips in a spiralling motion. This is NOT what Aiki/IP folks do.
Within the context of the exercise I was describing for Chris, the hips do move. I get that that's not what Aiki/IP folks do. We are, after all, describing two different systems and trying to see how they might converge on a common goal.

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
So .....Kua rotation in my training has been taught as part of a whole system with steps to connect the body, steps to create a train a dantien or central core and steps to retrain the bodys response system to force. Not moving the bones but using "Intent" to work with internal connective facial tissues and at all times using opposing forces within ourselves to retain stability.
Analogously, we employ specific exercises, both solo and paired, to strengthen the center, learn to handle loads applied to the body by using intent to unify mind and body in order to attain our strongest most dependable state. This is all accomplished by identifying what we call the correct feeling associated with a coordinated mind/body.

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
My view....Aiki/IP training was the bit that was missing....those that think they have it already....maybe they have .....in which case lets just endorse the work regardless of who teaches it.
Seconded.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2017, 10:08 AM   #50
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
United_States
Offline
Re: A defense of Aiki

Ron, first thanks for your post, I’m crazy busy this weekend (I filled in for our kids class teacher yesterday so I was at the dojo from 7AM until around 2PM and I’m heading out of town in about 45 minutes). I didn’t want to drop the thread and seem like a jerk before I left.

Daren did a good job describing briefly how the kua is trained, I can’t keep track of who trains with who these days (and I don’t really care other than being careful with how I define my terms), but it sounds really similar to what we’re doing. If you’re talking about what the hips are doing, you’re doing something else. This is REALLY hard for a lot of people to come to terms with because it’s all we’ve heard from our teachers forever. Power comes from the hips! Use the hips! Don’t lock up your hips! Try this exercise, stand in a good solid stance (like you guys would do for your push tests) and touch your hips with your fingertips. Now, honestly answer yourself, are you touching soft tissue or are you mostly touching bone? Go ahead, I’ll wait…

My bet is that you were touching bone, because when most people touch and propriocept their hips, they are actually thinking of their pelvis. So exactly how do we move “from” the hips if they’re a big rigid bowl of bone? That would be some voodoo that I haven’t seen or felt yet. So when I/we talk about the kua (and because of Dan we’ve expanded the concept of the kua to the shoulders as well although I get that the kua is in the hips/legs) it’s REALLY important. It’s basic. Having been a new person at this, and working with new people, it’s REALLY hard and you just can’t do any of the other *basics* without some competency controlling the kua’s rotation. I would say that discussing the kua (and shoulder ‘kua’) is probably 50-75% of what we talk about most classes right now. If you don’t even have a word for it, why does every conversation come back to, “we already do that/ we have always done that.” That’s not meant as a dig at you or your art, I really don’t care at all what you guys do. I’m incredibly self-centered in my training. But seriously, every time anyone tries to talk about internal mechanics and training methods, you (and Mary, and Eric, and some others) have to chime in with:
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
We don't have to re awaken because we have been doing it along. If you never leave the basics you don't have to come back to them.
How does that reconcile with:
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Within the context of the exercise I was describing for Chris, the hips do move. I get that that's not what Aiki/IP folks do. We are, after all, describing two different systems and trying to see how they might converge on a common goal.
You can’t already be doing it, and have it be something different.

Again, hopefully this is constructive, and I really appreciated the time you took to write up a response to my question. I promise to write up more details as long as we can get away from the “we already do that!” to “that’s interesting… this is how we think about that idea and how we train it.” That’s an interesting space to be discussing things, but it’s just exhausting to have all the work you’ve done thrown back in your face every single time with “we already do that” when it’s just not the case.

I’m working on blog posts about whole body movement vs. whole body coordination so I’ll link once those go up since they relate to some of this.

OK, really have to go now…

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is ki just good physics? phitruong Internal Training in Aikido 35 10-01-2013 10:21 AM
Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA? Dan Richards Internal Training in Aikido 173 05-11-2013 06:21 PM
Defining the word "Aiki" and looking at the phenomenon it describes. ChrisHein Language 80 11-08-2012 02:45 PM
Muneta and aiki ChrisMoses Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 17 03-22-2012 06:20 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 02:41 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:29 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate