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09-30-2009, 02:44 PM
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#101
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Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Okay, where should I look it up?
David
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I posted earlier in this very thread. I posted links to the wikipedia page on it. Yes, Wikipedia. It is short, simplistic, but decent in this case. I also posted a short discussion about it in context of the soviet system.
Try encyclopedias at your local library. Look up the soviet system again. Stalin is probably the best example, but Russia had a history of it pre-stalin basically culminating with Stalin. China under Mao. Romania under Nicolae Ceaucescu (sp?), Germany under Hitler, etc.
If you want more current examples read up on North Korea's political system. The current fruitcake and his father have installed a tremendous cult of personality as a means of controlling the population. As a matter of fact many (not all) totalitarian states and dictatorships have utilized a cult of personality as a means of keeping the population under control.
It is harder and harder to establish these things nowadays with information technology so robust and widespread. So it tends to be limited in this day and age to relatively poor and isolated countries. It is simply not possible to construct the elaborate BS stories when people can just look it up in a few seconds...
Another interesting point is that some believe that Karl Marx was the first to discuss the phenomena (and in a negative light, by the way).
I'll even attach a painting from North Korea. Notice how most art from these countries suffering under "cults of personality" is essentially propaganda but also shows the "great leader" in scenes that border on ludicrous. The "great leader" was basically despised by every other nation as his son is today. You're not likely to see a room full of world leaders giving Kim Jong Il a standing ovation... Let alone his similarly insane father.
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09-30-2009, 03:19 PM
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#102
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Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 695
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Keith Larman wrote:
<posted pic of Kim Jong >
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..besides the big dose of crazy that comes thru in that pic; also is the possibility that Kim Jong was training the internals. His center is thick and the tanden region well developed. His posture: impeccable.
carry on.
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09-30-2009, 04:06 PM
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#103
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Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote:
His center is thick and the tanden region well developed.
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Well, some books in North Korea now state that Kim Il Song gave birth to the world... So there you go... I guess he could have...
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09-30-2009, 09:42 PM
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#104
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Keith Larman wrote:
I posted earlier in this very thread. I posted links to the wikipedia page on it. Yes, Wikipedia. It is short, simplistic, but decent in this case. I also posted a short discussion about it in context of the soviet system.
( snip)
I'll even attach a painting from North Korea. Notice how most art from these countries suffering under "cults of personality" is essentially propaganda but also shows the "great leader" in scenes that border on ludicrous. The "great leader" was basically despised by every other nation as his son is today. You're not likely to see a room full of world leaders giving Kim Jong Il a standing ovation... Let alone his similarly insane father.
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I'm working on it.
In the mean time:
From the Gamaliel Foundation,
"Hear Our Cry Obama"
"Deliver Us Obama"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMJgw...layer_embedded
David
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Go ahead, tread on me.
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10-01-2009, 08:19 AM
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#105
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Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Oh, good lord. Stop it, David. Clearly peoples' behavior bothers you. Fine. Got it. Get over it. It ain't a "cult of personality".
My last post. Because otherwise I give up on you, David.
You might as well post this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc and then say there is a cult of personality involved around Britney Spears. There's not. Just a random idiot. You might think he's behaving like a brainwashed idiot -- okay, I'm with ya there. You might call all those other events you've posted about as instances of brainwashed idiots. Okay, I get ya there too.
But it isn't a Cult of Personality.
One last time. A Cult of Personality is an intentional, institutional, pervasive, governmentally controlled/constructed thing. Continuing to post random videos of private people/groups who adore the current president is simply not a "cult of personality". Apples and oranges isn't sufficient -- try apples and asteroids. There were groups who felt George W. Bush spoke to God and his mission was heaven-sent. Delusional. But that isn't a Cult of Personality either.
You may think these people are silly, deluded or even dangerous. Fine. You may think these things are a "really bad sign". Fine. But until governmental programs start mandating photos of El Presidente in every living room along with mandatory songs in *every* school and textbooks saying Obama gave birth to George Washington and all that is good by squeezing his butt-cheeks together it just ain't the same thing. Notice the difference. Government programs and legal requirements. Institutionally supported and disseminated creation and /or hero myths (what about George W Bush in the flight suit -- is that trying to establish a cult of personality too?). You may think we're on a some gigantic slippery slope and you may quiver in your undies that that's what's coming, but without it all being a top down, pervasive, officially mandated phenomena it just isn't the same thing. So it isn't a Cult of Personality.
I'll check back into thread in a few years if we become the "United States of Obama" and apologize, but until then, this is just flat out absurd, paranoid, and most importantly... Simply ignorant of what Cult of Personality means in political theory. I come from an academic and research background. I love to discuss things. Oh, man, I thought much of my expensive liberal arts education was wasted after the soviet system fell apart. And now one of my favorite topics is back. Cult of Personality. But being tossed around in a way that is just insulting to all those who have suffered and died under repressive totalitarian regimes that actually *did* establish Cults of Personality. It's no different than every moron who takes whoever is president that day and calling him a Nazi. That in my mind is not only idiotic, but it ignores the real horror of what the Nazi's actually did in favor of trying to draw some facile, borderline insane comparison. There's lots of crazy involved here.
But this isn't even discussion anymore -- you have to at least try to adopt consistent meaning in your terms. Cult of Personality *has* a meaning. A real one. And since it has very powerful connotations of extremely negative things it is easy to use it as a powerful label. So it becomes even more important that the phrase is used correctly and appropriately and not just as a means to blindly label someone as something they aren't.
By using a loaded label like this totally out of appropriate context you are doing exactly the same thing as the very people you are so upset about, just on the other side of the spectrum.
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10-01-2009, 08:42 AM
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#106
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Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Nice try Keith, well put, not sure it is going to work though!
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Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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10-01-2009, 12:31 PM
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#107
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 106
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Keith Larman wrote:
...One last time. A Cult of Personality is an intentional, institutional, pervasive, governmentally controlled/constructed thing. ...
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Why do you think it has to be intentional & controlled by the government? You don't think it can grow without government control? Only a tightly controlled society, for example, a COMMUNIST country, can have a policy that is "intentional, institutional, pervasive, governmentally controlled/constructed thing" for it to work. Does this mean you can think of no examples of a cult of personality other than a government controlled one?? Really??
And by the way, this charge of a cult of personality of Obama did not come from David or just the republicans. Heck even the Clinton's said it:
http://www.groupnewsblog.net/2008/02...rsonality.html
"...Some folks have suggested Clinton operatives are pushing "Obama as cult" around the press."
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10-01-2009, 12:33 PM
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#108
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
I agree: well put Keith. But this thread has simply become a sort of repository for Mark's bookmarks that show Obama in a negative light. , no story.
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David
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Go ahead, tread on me.
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10-01-2009, 02:08 PM
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#109
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Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Why do you think it has to be intentional & controlled by the government? You don't think it can grow without government control? Only a tightly controlled society, for example, a COMMUNIST country, can have a policy that is "intentional, institutional, pervasive, governmentally controlled/constructed thing" for it to work. Does this mean you can think of no examples of a cult of personality other than a government controlled one?? Really??
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That is the point -- Cult of Personality is a well defined thing in political theory and it gets misused all the time including by pundits and journalists. And when people use the phrase to denigrate a leader they are usually using a sort of "by association" logic to hope that people see it as the same thing. Which it usually isn't because the classic cases of Cult of Personality are all based on dictatorships, totalitarian regimes, and even monarchies where they have the level of control in order to install policies to forward the "official line".
Quote:
And by the way, this charge of a cult of personality of Obama did not come from David or just the republicans. Heck even the Clinton's said it:
http://www.groupnewsblog.net/2008/02...rsonality.html
"...Some folks have suggested Clinton operatives are pushing "Obama as cult" around the press."
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People liking Obama with cult-like enthusiasm is a worthy discussion in and of itself, but it is quite different from a political cult of personality. They are *not* the same. Saying someone has a "cult-like" following is dramatically different from asserting a "Cult of Personality". And it isn't a small step from one to the other. It is tremendous leap.
The same following issue happens with most people who get into high office, celebrities, religious leaders, rock-stars, athletes, etc. -- there are always those who view them almost as saviors. and people who have that sort of cult-like adoration are quite nuts IMHO as well. They see only what they want to see and are totally blinded by their ideological assumptions. These people can also be those within a persons' inner circle (they tend to be believers in the person and their message otherwise they wouldn't be there...). And whether someone deserves that degree of adulation is itself a topic of value, having people with that devotion is not a cult of personality. If you want to say some people love Obama in a cult-like way I'd agree with you completely. Of course some do. There was and still is a very large group of people who idolize Ronald Reagan. Or John Kennedy. The evaluation of the justification for their adoration is an interesting topic of discussion.
The question is whether the people at the top have so thoroughly taken over a system that they are able to enforce and impose a hero like or savior style story about the "great leader". It is much like an attempt at large-scale brainwashing done from the highest levels down. It is not enthusiastic believers who take up the flag of their hero. It is the "hero" trying to convince the country to believe some BS creation myth and doing so through the government itself. This literally becomes the law of the land, with mandatory displays of the "great leader" on every corner. Heck, Saddam did a moderately good job of trying to install the same thing himself. And did so through his own power and the power of his political party.
Uncle.
I give up.
Sorry, I must be the ivory tower idiot here. Back to my dark cave...
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10-01-2009, 02:30 PM
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#110
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 106
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Keith Larman wrote:
That is the point -- Cult of Personality is a well defined thing in political theory and it gets misused all the time including by pundits and journalists. And when people use the phrase to denigrate a leader they are usually using a sort of "by association" logic to hope that people see it as the same thing. Which it usually isn't because the classic cases of Cult of Personality are all based on dictatorships, totalitarian regimes, and even monarchies where they have the level of control in order to install policies to forward the "official line". ...
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So, the Cult of Personality will never happen in the U.S., then, right? Is that what you believe?? Because the classic cases have been in "dictatorships, totalitarian regimes, and even monarchies"? Let me suggest that those regimes would not have been created had there been people like some of the people here & on the TV & radio that warned of it coming. Follow? Let me suggest that a 'cult of personality' allowed those "dictatorships, totalitarian regimes" to come into being. Follow?? From those seeds, come "dictatorships, totalitarian regimes".
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10-01-2009, 02:41 PM
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#111
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Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
So, the Cult of Personality will never happen in the U.S., then, right? Is that what you believe?? Because the classic cases have been in "dictatorships, totalitarian regimes, and even monarchies"? Let me suggest that those regimes would not have been created had there been people like some of the people here & on the TV & radio that warned of it coming. Follow? Let me suggest that a 'cult of personality' allowed those "dictatorships, totalitarian regimes" to come into being. Follow?? From those seeds, come "dictatorships, totalitarian regimes".
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That is absolutely not what I said.
Hitler road a huge groundswell of fear and discontent into office and used that support to install many things that were classic Cult of Personality features.
But it was still the shift from bottom up to top down that moved it from popular and rather "enthusiastic" support to the appearance of a Cult of Personality. And that transition wasn't due to individuals or school teachers decided to teach songs about Hitler, it was a rewriting of history from the top down and imposed upon the country.
Reagan was hugely popular, especially among certain conservative groups. To the point of almost religious adoration. Cult-ish devotion even among some of those. But it was not a Cult of Personality nor did it turn into one.
By all means, be on your guard. Always vigilant. Always watching. But calling it a "cult of personality" to me is no different from those who called GW Bush a Nazi. Neither was even close. And the moment somebody starts that sort of shrill rhetoric the possibility of remotely intelligent, measured and insightful discussion is gone.
Just like in this thread it appears.
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10-02-2009, 01:12 PM
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#112
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
An example of a cult of personality that does not fit the definition exactly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality
Cult of personality
Examples from other forms of government
'Juan Perón, elected three times as President of Argentina, and his second wife, Eva Duarte de Perón, were immensely popular among many of the Argentine people, and to this day they are still considered icons by the Peronist Party. The Peróns' followers praised their efforts to eliminate poverty and to dignify labor, while their detractors considered them demagogues and dictators. To achieve their political goals, the Peronists had to unite around the head of state. As a result, a personality cult developed around both Perón and his wife."
David
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Go ahead, tread on me.
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10-02-2009, 02:53 PM
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#113
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Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
There are many who would argue that the Peron years in Argentina were not in fact a good example of a cult of personality. Many followers were quite adamant and like today in the US there seems to be a number of people who are either irrationally in love with their leaders, or irrationally afraid of them. Most political scientists will hedge on this example and say it was kinda like one, but not really because it was lacking so many aspects you would expect to see.
But if you look hard enough you can find those who argue that a cult of personality was formed in the US around a mostly fictitious account of George Washington. So there you go. Ignore that most would consider that really to be something else entirely, but hey, who cares about being precise, let's just let the phrase mean most anything. The good thing about that is that it will ultimately end up meaning... Nothing. Destroyed by casual, uninformed colloquial usage.
So go ahead back to the wringing of hands and posting. It is truly horrible that some people really like the president, isn't it? Especially when the people who like him happen to people who have different views than you have. Yup, school teacher has the kids sing a song about their president during Black History Month in a program that also had songs about other presidents. Yup, clearly the next step is that Obama is going to rip off his mask and show that he's really Satan...
Now that all that's out of the way... Was there an issue to discuss? Anything? Anything at all?
The sad thing is that if you had just said there are some really crazy people out there who seem to elevate Barak Obama to god-like status I would have agreed with you. If you had said that some of those people made some really poor decisions in how they showed that devotion, heck, I'd be right behind you holding the sign. But when you take a gigantic leap and start using loaded phrases (what seems to be par for the course now in political discourse on-line and in the media), well, I start backing away saying "Um, well, yeah, but hold on a sec..."
It is like watching Glenn Beck. A small grain of truth gets selectively grown with a small bit of crazy and a lot of scary sounding words and suddenly we've proven that Unicorns are taking over the government! AAAIIIIEEEE, run! Save yourselves from their glistening horns of terror!
I should have done what I said way back when and walked away in disgust.
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10-02-2009, 03:04 PM
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#114
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Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Keith Larman wrote:
suddenly we've proven that Unicorns are taking over the government!
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Now that really would be worthy of a Cult of Personality! Where can I get a picture to hang on my wall?
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I should have done what I said way back when and walked away in disgust.
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Perhaps
regards,
Mark
p.s. I've enjoyed your level headed approach Keith.
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Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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10-02-2009, 09:28 PM
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#115
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote:
Whoops. Typo. Mea culpa.
I think you know who I mean....
--jimbo
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Since the only means of communication posting on a forum is the typed word ( and emoticons ), without visual cues and tonal inflection it is best to clear up any possible misunderstanding.
David
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Go ahead, tread on me.
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10-05-2009, 12:32 PM
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#116
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Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
So, the Cult of Personality will never happen in the U.S., then, right? Is that what you believe??
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No one who's ever heard of Ronald Reagan could make that claim.
Reagan and W. Bush both had huge cults of personality, in the context of your claims about Obama. He has nothing on them.
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"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
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10-05-2009, 02:19 PM
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#117
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 106
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
No one who's ever heard of Ronald Reagan could make that claim.
Reagan and W. Bush both had huge cults of personality, in the context of your claims about Obama. He has nothing on them.
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Well, no they didn't. Remember, Keith said that the Cult of Personality only exists in a tightly controlled (i.e., communistic) government, so the Cult of Personality is impossible in the U.S.
Didn't you read what Keith said? He said, "...Reagan was hugely popular, especially among certain conservative groups. To the point of almost religious adoration. Cult-ish devotion even among some of those. But it was not a Cult of Personality nor did it turn into one."
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10-05-2009, 02:48 PM
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#118
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Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
...it was not a Cult of Personality nor did it turn into one."
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And Keith is correct. My statement is that what dupes are criticizing in Obama is stuff that both Reagan and Bush had from their followers. Certainly no worse. So get over it.
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"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
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10-05-2009, 03:14 PM
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#119
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Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Well, no they didn't. Remember, Keith said that the Cult of Personality only exists in a tightly controlled (i.e., communistic) government, so the Cult of Personality is impossible in the U.S.
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Please do not put words in my mouth. It would be highly unlikely simply due to the structure of our government. However, given the dramatic change in the assertion of independent power by the executive branch in the last 10 years it isn't necessarily impossible.
That said, I think it is highly unlikely given the horribly polarized and divisive environment within which we live today. Heck, we can't even have an intelligent discussion about health policy without people screaming "socialists!".
Rights we still have such as the ability to have this discussion freely and openly are pretty much proof a cult of personality in a strict doesn't exist here. Saying the very things you've said in this thread in North Korea (as an example) would leave you open to prosecution... That's one thing that is somewhat surreal about a thread like this. Asserting something like that exists here and now would be horrendously dangerous if it were true.
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10-05-2009, 09:20 PM
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#121
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
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Go ahead, tread on me.
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10-05-2009, 10:58 PM
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#122
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Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
There is a cult of personality because Queen Oprah anointed him as "The One".
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Plonk.
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10-06-2009, 06:35 AM
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#123
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 106
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
.... So get over it.
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Get over what?
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10-06-2009, 09:38 AM
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#124
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Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Get over what?
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Whatever's bugging you silly about Obama.
You guys had total control of the country for six years until the people squashed you in 2006 and again in 2008.
Meantime, your boys screwed up two wars and destroyed our economy.
Now Obama has to straighten out the debacles of two wars and a ruined economy and folks like you and skaggs are determined to drag him down.
Don't forget it was your thinking that led us to the unbelievable mess George Bush left for the future. Rather than trying to blame and drag Obama down, you need to turn to some serious self-reflection and figure out how you made such egregious errors in judgment that you supported GW Bush. And while you're at it, see if you can figure out why you now want to destroy the person who is charged with correcting those tragic errors you endorsed.
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"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
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10-06-2009, 02:15 PM
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#125
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 106
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Whatever's bugging you silly about Obama.
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Nothing is. What gave you an idea that there is something bothering me about Obama? I was having a discussion about the Cult of Personality with Keith & whether it can happen here.
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..You guys had total control of the country for six years until the people squashed you in 2006 and again in 2008.
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You certainly are militaristic, aren't you?? "Total control". "Squashed". Man...
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Meantime, your boys screwed up two wars
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Really??
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..and destroyed our economy.
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I think people signing for mortgages who couldn't afford them & got fancy mortgage products are the ones that screwed us. Not my 'boys'.
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Now Obama has to straighten out the debacles of two wars and a ruined economy
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What flavor is the cool aid you are drinking?
?? I am just like you...
You want to throw in 'rascist', too??
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...are determined to drag him down.
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Unlike the Bush Haters, huh?
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Don't forget it was your thinking that led us to the unbelievable mess George Bush left for the future.
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HAHAH!! Man, you should relax & take a drink from the warm glass of reality...
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Rather than trying to blame and drag Obama down, you need to turn to some serious self-reflection and figure out how you made such egregious errors in judgment that you supported GW Bush.....
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Wow, thanks, doc. I'll get right on that.
If you need someone to talk to, I can refer you, or you can send me a PM. Bad day??
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