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Old 02-11-2005, 11:33 AM   #1
MitchMZ
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The "Martial" Side of Aikido

I would just like to start a thread and get some responses on how everyone trains so that the techniques and principles can be used effectively (if needed) in a real situation. Even if you incorporate other martial arts into your Aikido I'd like to hear about it. I personally feel this is a very important aspect to Aikido. If anyone has opinions regarding whether the martial aspect is important or not, feel free to reply! I just ask everyone to keep it civil.

I personally think by teaching lots of atemi and different (more lethal) ways to do techniques, the student has more options if they are in danger. However, I think potentially lethal techniques should be reserved for more advanced students. (Thats what amazes me about Aikido, most the techniques and movements are so brutal if you realize what they would do to someone at full speed on solid ground. Beginners, including myself, are taught these. Very humbling.)

At my dojo, we do a lot of atemi and train with a very martial mindset. Solid, effective technique doesn't mean using all of our strength to plow the guy into the mat at our dojo. Also, since I come from a slight Judo, BJJ, and Hapkido background I sometimes sweep the legs when I spoof a technique. I sometimes and just move off the line and do atemi, and uke looks at me funny. I don't think its wrong, just a different method. We tend to train with the mindset, "If you screw up something just move to something else or do something, just don't stop and shake your head." I think this is also vitally important. People react in real situations like they train, if a technique gets spoofed you can't just stand there and be a punching bag. BTW, that leg sweep sure works nice if you don't quite get a good kokyunage! Hard fall though! Same with poorly executed shihonages!@#! Its nice being able to throw someone without sweeping a leg, but it is nice to know the break points in the leg if I have to.

To sum it all up, I think the martial side of Aikido is about having lots of options (atemi, throws, locks) in a bad situation.
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Old 02-11-2005, 12:29 PM   #2
John Boswell
 
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

Quote:
Mitch Kuntz wrote:
I would just like to start a thread and get some responses on how everyone trains so that the techniques and principles can be used effectively (if needed) in a real situation. Even if you incorporate other martial arts into your Aikido I'd like to hear about it. I personally feel this is a very important aspect to Aikido. If anyone has opinions regarding whether the martial aspect is important or not, feel free to reply! I just ask everyone to keep it civil.

I personally think by teaching lots of atemi and different (more lethal) ways to do techniques, the student has more options if they are in danger. However, I think potentially lethal techniques should be reserved for more advanced students. (Thats what amazes me about Aikido, most the techniques and movements are so brutal if you realize what they would do to someone at full speed on solid ground. Beginners, including myself, are taught these. Very humbling.)

At my dojo, we do a lot of atemi and train with a very martial mindset. Solid, effective technique doesn't mean using all of our strength to plow the guy into the mat at our dojo. Also, since I come from a slight Judo, BJJ, and Hapkido background I sometimes sweep the legs when I spoof a technique. I sometimes and just move off the line and do atemi, and uke looks at me funny. I don't think its wrong, just a different method. We tend to train with the mindset, "If you screw up something just move to something else or do something, just don't stop and shake your head." I think this is also vitally important. People react in real situations like they train, if a technique gets spoofed you can't just stand there and be a punching bag. BTW, that leg sweep sure works nice if you don't quite get a good kokyunage! Hard fall though! Same with poorly executed shihonages!@#! Its nice being able to throw someone without sweeping a leg, but it is nice to know the break points in the leg if I have to.

To sum it all up, I think the martial side of Aikido is about having lots of options (atemi, throws, locks) in a bad situation.
Many good points, Mitch. Options are good. Can't argue that. But how do you teach so many options to someone just learning how to tenkan? or what "Irimi" even means?

Unlike yourself, the vast majority of people in the world have little to know martial arts experience. Training in aikido should always start out with the basics: taking ukemi, initial attacks, terminology, basic techniques. Period.

After being in for 3 years and having started from scratch, I can see your point of teaching atemi and options, leg sweeps, etc. But newbies aren't ready for that. They're still trying to figure out what the hell Sensei means when he says "Use your hips! Move from your center!"

Once they get passed that stage, then sure... open up about what atemi is, where the vital points are to poke, prod and pressure. I know in my case, my instructor mentioned, pointed out and taught various atemi-waza when I first joined up. However, I was so lost... I had absolutly NO clue what the hell he was talking about for about the first 6 months. That's where I come up with that time frame.

All things come in time. Now... for those that don't teach atemi waza at all, I think that is a serious transgression. But that is only my personal opinion.

To each their own...

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Old 02-11-2005, 12:32 PM   #3
Jordan Steele
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

I agree with alot of what you said, but in Aikido and a select few other traditional martial arts I don't think it is the instructors job to teach you self-defense or more lethal aspects of the art. I am a firm believer that some students shoudn't even be learning a martial art, let alone the more damaging techniques no matter how advanced they are. If you are a good student, you will learn the basics over and over again until you reach a point where you can see and develop techniques of your own. Aikido is an evolutionary learning process that takes time and practice...hard practice. I think the most important thing a good teacher and a good dojo can implant in a student to make them more capable in combat is the warrior mindset. Lots of people who have never taken a martial art or been in a fight are incredibly formidable opponents because they have the mental state of mind to deal with battle. Sometimes an instructor will show you a secret...very subtely and it is the students job to steal that secret and apply it to his own Aikido.
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Old 02-11-2005, 09:41 PM   #4
Don_Modesto
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

Quote:
Mitch Kuntz wrote:
I personally think by teaching lots of atemi and different (more lethal) ways to do techniques, the student has more options if they are in danger. However, I think potentially lethal techniques should be reserved for more advanced students.
That's backwards of what the founder did. He refused students who hadn't already mastered an art so they came knowing how to hurt people already. Moreover, he also changed the techniques from DR so that they'd conform to his ideas of harmony. If you want self-defense, aikido's better than nothing, but I don't think that self-defense is aikido's purpose.

Quote:
People react in real situations like they train, if a technique gets spoofed you can't just stand there and be a punching bag.
Saito used to refuse to allow people to "spoof" or even do KI NO NAGARE until SANDAN. Real life mindset is all well and good, but ya gotta get da basics.

Quote:
To sum it all up, I think the martial side of Aikido is about having lots of options (atemi, throws, locks) in a bad situation.
I don't think the founder made a distinction between aikido and the "martial side of aikido."

Take care.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 02-11-2005, 11:41 PM   #5
maikerus
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

My understanding of Aikido training is that we are learning fundamental principlies (aka. Riai) from every technique we practice.

My interpretation of this is that as we train in different techniques we learn more about how our uke reacts to our movement and how we react to our shite's movement. From this we learn how to apply all our focus/energy/power at a single point at a single time in a way that is appropriate to the situation. Remember that atemi doesn't need to be a strike with the hand or a kick, but can be a shoulder strike to the chest, using your back, using an arm or both arms, a head butt...wherever you can focus all your energy.

It seems to me that if that is what we are looking for then trying to hurry up the process by concentrating on "teaching lots of atemi (in this case I am assuming atemi to mean a strike by hand)" or by "practicing more lethal techniques" then we might in fact be slowing ourselves down if we don't at the same time incorporate the basic, fundamental principles of Aikido into that training...and if we do that, then maybe the "lethality" and understanding of atemi will come.

Of course, that being said I agree that the martial mindset is important and you should be training with all the intent you can muster to make every movement count. I also feel that atemi (strikes in this case) are important and should contribute to the technique and not just be thrown into the mix because the technique is poorly done.

Quote:
We tend to train with the mindset, "If you screw up something just move to something else or do something, just don't stop and shake your head." I think this is also vitally important. People react in real situations like they train, if a technique gets spoofed you can't just stand there and be a punching bag.
I agree that when you make a mistake it is good to do something else. However, I wonder if you only practice this way whether you will continually make a mistake so therefore continually do something else and not really practice those Aikido "fundamental principles" I was refering to earlier. As Don said, "ya gotta get da basics". Doing "something else" could be construed as a cop-out from your Aikido training.

Perhaps a good way of training would be to "do something else" the first time, but then go back and try and do it without a mistake 5 times in a row and stop and shake your head if you do make a mistake in that set.

I don't have an answer to this. I am throwing it out as a way of thinking of Aikido training and the martial aspect that comes from Aikido as opposed to training for self-defense as soon as possible, with Aikido being only one part of the venue.

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 02-12-2005, 10:53 AM   #6
MitchMZ
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

I agree with much of what has been said...basics, basics, basics. I think what is great about Aikido is you really can see any technique can spawn from the basic movements. My Aikido will probably be different than his or hers, etc. I almost always try to do the techniques properly, but if I can't I move on to something else then I do something else. But, I can see where doing other "tricks" to aid bad technique could potentially lead to sloppy technique and bad habits.

Now as far as not teaching lethal techniques...I think all the techniques are potentially lethal. Which is why we train so hard to do them so very well that we will not hurt the attacker. Keep in mind, it is not the martial side of Aikido that helps me as much as the spiritual. IDK, maybe Aikido is not for me if it is not necessarily for self defense...but perosnally, I love it and never want to quit. Most the people are so friendly and I love seminars! I guess Aikijujutsu maybe a better match for my philosophy, but good luck finding a dojo in Iowa. I think learning how to do things in a nonharmful way is a good way to start out anyways.

Last edited by MitchMZ : 02-12-2005 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 02-12-2005, 11:14 AM   #7
MitchMZ
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

I just thought...my incredibly small dojo enviroment could have something to do with how much I "experiment" as well. Different situations...I get one on one training from our instructors all the time.
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Old 02-12-2005, 12:40 PM   #8
Greg Jennings
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

Different venues, different ideas.

In my dojo, you are not practicing to get people to the mat any way that you can. You are doing two-person kata to train your intuition toward takemusu aiki.

If the setting changes enough that the kata being practiced doesn't make sense anymore, then transposing into one that makes sense is logical. I not only encourage this, I insist on it and we have whole classes where we study "trees" or "chains" of techniques.

Going and doing something else entirely that is outside the assumptions of aikido might work in that moment, but our idea is that it, ultimately, doesn't contribute to training the intuition. It's an rabbit-hole.

YMMV. That's just my perspective,

Greg Jennings
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Old 02-12-2005, 02:32 PM   #9
Charlie
 
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

Quote:
Mitch Kuntz wrote:
I personally think by teaching lots of atemi and different (more lethal) ways to do techniques, the student has more options if they are in danger.
Hope this isn't taken as nit picking!

But...What is MORE lethal? Lethal is lethal. You even said yourself (or maybe one of the replies did) that every technique already contains the potential of lethality. If you are applying the technique "differently" then it has already become just that...a different technique.

It's been said already and will probably be said again. Only after grasping/mastering the basics do I truly have options.

If I teach or are taught a hundred variations without having an understanding of the framework from which they come, then I have to ask - "options" to what? And as an added bonus: IMO, the techniques already contain the atemi regardless if you decide to display them or not.

Also...how do you prepare for a "danger" situation? I highly doubt that a potential attacker outside of the dojo will come at you with a highly stylized attack as such that we practice within the dojo.

However, if you have a grasp of the basics, then you can make the necessary adjustments and apply techniques appropriate to the situation...and I'm fairly confidant that it won't look like the shihonage that I strive to perfect in the dojo because the parameters are just not the same as in the dojo.

Chalk up one more opinion for the "practice the basics and the rest will come" side!

Cheers,

Charles Burmeister
Aikido Yoshinkan Yoseikai

"Calmness is trust in action"
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Old 02-12-2005, 09:27 PM   #10
MitchMZ
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

Well, I wouldn't make the assumption that everyone in my dojo trains like I do. My intensity depends soley on uke/nage. If you are forcing someone down...its not really Aikido, good Aikido anyways. We do train very traditionally, but due to the small nature of the dojo it is sometimes not extremely formal. I think everyone has very valid comments...I just think sometimes if people get too caught up in tradition their is no room for change...and sometimes change is good or bad.
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Old 02-12-2005, 11:49 PM   #11
Charlie
 
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

The use of tradition is not what is being debated here.

In just about every "style" of aikido there are basic techniques to be learned in order to progress. When these basic techniques are grasped then the door is automatically opened to the countless thousand that remain AND their variations. How that package is presented is irrelevant as long as this "stepping stone" process is followed.

My guess is that any teacher worth his/her salt will always but forth the message of learn the basics and the rest will follow. That doesn't mean not to experiment! It just means that if you learn the parameters of a garden variety shihonage (or what ever technique you like) to the point that you need not think the technique but just naturally react to the present situation. Then the technique will automatically flow into what ever is necessary for that moment. That can only be achieved by practicing the basics over and over. After all...you have to have a reference point, right?

Cheers,

Last edited by Charlie : 02-13-2005 at 12:00 AM.

Charles Burmeister
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Old 02-13-2005, 01:57 AM   #12
MitchMZ
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

I agree totally.
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Old 02-19-2005, 09:03 AM   #13
Aikidoiain
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

Hi Mitch,

To address the first part of your question - I often used "role-play" as a way of testing Aikido techniques.

Put simply; just act out a real life attack scenario with your partner and see how you react and interact. For me, I found this style of training very useful, although nothing can fully prepare you for a real attack when it comes out of nowhere.

I also found that by perfecting (or at least, applying without conscious thought) a few techniques, rather than knowing loads, it soon became apparent that these can be utilised in many and quite varied attack scenarios. In essence, they become second nature.

Mind and body as one, I guess.


Iain.

Last edited by Aikidoiain : 02-19-2005 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 02-19-2005, 07:39 PM   #14
MM
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

I read about training using the basics but just training using the basics doesn't always work. Let me cite a completely different example here. I know someone who had their Cisco CCNA certification expire and they studied to take the new test. This person knows Cisco routers and easily answers questions about them. This person knows the basics inside and out. When this person went to take the new exam, the exam format completely threw this person for a loop. This person did not pass the test.

Training and working with the basics is good. But if you're wondering about the martial aspect of it, then one should experiment with that aspect. Find out if you're using basics in situations that aren't "dojo trained". See where you aren't using the basics, but I believe that if you just rely on dojo training to learn the basics, when you get into a "real world" situation, you might find yourself thrown for a loop.

So, yeah, once you've reached a certain level (personally, I think shodan is a good place to start but other people's opinions differ), I think you should take some time either after class or at home or with friends somewhere to explore more "real world" applications so that you can find out where you are or are not using those basics you've supposedly learned.

Mark

Last edited by MM : 02-19-2005 at 07:40 PM. Reason: Replacing a word
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Old 02-20-2005, 07:07 AM   #15
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

Quite right Mark. I've heard it said that once you've reached 1st Dan (shodan), you know the basics.

I have no rank in Aikido whatsoever, but I have somehow managed to defend myself against 2 street muggings involving knives, simply by using the Tomiki Aikido and Aiki-Jujitsu I'd trained in for over 10 years, away from the dojo. Guess I was just lucky those times.

I certainly don't profess to know all the Aikido techniques, but I do know enough to get out of trouble - belt or no belt. Having said that, I do hold a yellow belt in Hapkido!

Conclusion - there are many paths one can take to reach the same destination. I just chose a different path (for many good reasons - see earlier posts and journals).

Iain.
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Old 02-20-2005, 09:42 AM   #16
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

For me, the biggest benefit of Aikido is the option of not harming your opponent. We all know strikes to the collar bones and eye gouging works, but obviously, it's handy to have alternatives when you are in situations that are less than life threatening.

Taken as an enhancement to an existing repertiore of martial arts techniques, it's marvelous to have the ability not to kill and destroy, even though you could choose to.

My fifteen year old son has great ukemi skills in the dojo but is very "unforgiving" in our practice at home. I find that cheats and compromises magically appear when needed and I expect that would be the same in a real life situation.

A little twist of the waist is a great cure to a weak shiho nage, but IMHO, you have to practice a perfect technical one to make sure you aren't reinforcing the weakness. Seeing a perfect technique executed in a real life situation can be an awesome thing for everyone around, too.

Something I noticed from watching my eleven year old's wrestling matches is that there is a big difference between the kids who are out there trying to win and the ones who are trying not to lose. It's interesting that you can often spot the champions on the visiting teams while they are still walking around in their warm-up suits.

I expect this is also the same in real life situations- When someone talks about the warrior's spirit or grit and determination, etc. I picture the kind of mental confidence that allows one to size up a potential predicament and spontaneously effect a solution. That is probably what you get around Shodan. (I'll have to let you know. )
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Old 02-27-2005, 06:10 PM   #17
JasonFDeLucia
 
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

Quote:
Mitch Kuntz wrote:
I would just like to start a thread and get some responses on how everyone trains so that the techniques and principles can be used effectively (if needed) in a real situation. Even if you incorporate other martial arts into your Aikido I'd like to hear about it. I personally feel this is a very important aspect to Aikido. If anyone has opinions regarding whether the martial aspect is important or not, feel free to reply! I just ask everyone to keep it civil.

I personally think by teaching lots of atemi and different (more lethal) ways to do techniques, the student has more options if they are in danger. However, I think potentially lethal techniques should be reserved for more advanced students. (Thats what amazes me about Aikido, most the techniques and movements are so brutal if you realize what they would do to someone at full speed on solid ground. Beginners, including myself, are taught these. Very humbling.)

At my dojo, we do a lot of atemi and train with a very martial mindset. Solid, effective technique doesn't mean using all of our strength to plow the guy into the mat at our dojo. Also, since I come from a slight Judo, BJJ, and Hapkido background I sometimes sweep the legs when I spoof a technique. I sometimes and just move off the line and do atemi, and uke looks at me funny. I don't think its wrong, just a different method. We tend to train with the mindset, "If you screw up something just move to something else or do something, just don't stop and shake your head." I think this is also vitally important. People react in real situations like they train, if a technique gets spoofed you can't just stand there and be a punching bag. BTW, that leg sweep sure works nice if you don't quite get a good kokyunage! Hard fall though! Same with poorly executed shihonages!@#! Its nice being able to throw someone without sweeping a leg, but it is nice to know the break points in the leg if I have to.

To sum it all up, I think the martial side of Aikido is about having lots of options (atemi, throws, locks) in a bad situation.
definitely the techniques appear in their traditional form competitively when you add atemi.the key is to fuse the atemi to the techniques with the same rhythmic principle as a judo uchi komi.don't dwell in atemi but give it one beat to a two beat scenario.much of what we see of osensei is minus atemi because it is done ryo te tori ,ipon dori style .but when you see him address open attack you see overhand punches ,palm heel ''shotei'' ,even footage of him throwing a knee ,just to stimulate the continuum.
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Old 02-27-2005, 08:52 PM   #18
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

In a street combat situation you might want to use lethal force, however it will be more trouble than it's worth.

When you fight, there are actually two fights you will have to win. One, which is the actual combat. The second, is with the authorities. Most people will see that you won the fight, so you must have started it. Even though you did not, that is the unfortunate reality.

Using lethal force is not only unnecessary, but you may also be locked away for murder. There are usually little to no witnesses in a dark alley; and because you killed him, even though it was self-defence, they don't know that and you could be facing life in prison.

Stunning techniques, even a normally lethal technique used as a knock-out instead, would be more beneficial.

And lastly, it is well known that those who know how to kill are usually those who wish to never have to. If you wish to learn how to kill, take shooting lessons and buy a gun. Aikido can be a form of defending yourself with the least amount of force, and killing is the last resort, not another option.

It is not simply a fight to the finish, it is knowing what to do once you have won.
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Old 02-28-2005, 03:41 PM   #19
Aikidoiain
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

I have been attacked. I used various skills to defend myself. I never once thought about the use of lethal force, despite being threatened by knives. In fact, I didn't consciously think of anything. My body just moved automatically.

In one attack, I did disable both attackers, but merely by breaking joints and throwing them to the ground. I had to be sure they were unable to pick up their knives and continue the attack. That's what my training taught me.

I saw that they were indeed in pain, but at least still alive. I then quickly made my escape. At no point did I need to touch the knife - thus my finger prints weren't on it. I was taught never to touch or pick up the knife for this reason.

I just acted instinctively. Others may disagree with me, but I'm still alive, and so are they - after a hospital visit, no doubt.


Iain.

Last edited by Aikidoiain : 02-28-2005 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 03-28-2005, 02:02 PM   #20
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

In college I trained in Tae Kwon Do and Aikido (well, and I was in SCA, which involves medieval armored swordfighting). At my college there was a severe woman shortage so at the bar one could expect a bunch of swaggering bravado from the guys trying to get... affection.. that night.

I have only been in one fight where I truly needed my martial arts experience, so recollecting the event, it seems I fell back to my Tae Kwon Do training primarily as a means to deal with the very quick punches and kicks that I was expecting from the aggressor, but instinctually the aikido training must have been on my mind, because I recall I was looking for the opportunity to grab the aggressor's arm/leg/whatever after he him being slow to retract a punch.

Fortunately, the altercation ended after a couple shoves by him and one quick punch to the throat by me, and my best immitation of Road Runner! beep beep!

D
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Old 03-30-2005, 07:12 PM   #21
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

I train in Aikido and we cross train with Small Circle Jujitsu, mainly the finger locking techniques that Prof. Jay has perfected. On topof that Ialso study a traditional Jujitsu style and feel that it also compliments my Aikido skills (although they are similar in more ways than not). I think cross training is a good thing!!!
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Old 03-30-2005, 09:40 PM   #22
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

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Aaron Francher wrote:
In a street combat situation you might want to use lethal force, however it will be more trouble than it's worth.

When you fight, there are actually two fights you will have to win. One, which is the actual combat. The second, is with the authorities. Most people will see that you won the fight, so you must have started it. Even though you did not, that is the unfortunate reality.

Using lethal force is not only unnecessary, but you may also be locked away for murder. There are usually little to no witnesses in a dark alley; and because you killed him, even though it was self-defence, they don't know that and you could be facing life in prison.

Stunning techniques, even a normally lethal technique used as a knock-out instead, would be more beneficial.

And lastly, it is well known that those who know how to kill are usually those who wish to never have to. If you wish to learn how to kill, take shooting lessons and buy a gun. Aikido can be a form of defending yourself with the least amount of force, and killing is the last resort, not another option.
If the fight gets "lethal" and you end up killing someone in self defense, you are going to have to explain your actions. If your background is in Aikido you have an advantage over any other form of martial art.

Aikido is often characterized as a martial art in which the opponent's own weight and momentum are used against him. In Aikido, there are no attacking techniques, per se.

Ergo, if you are attacked in a dark alley and defend yourself, with say, irimi nage and the attacker falls, banging his head and dies - you're in a better position from a legal defense standpoint than, for example, someone who delivered a spinning back kick that caused the death.
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Old 03-31-2005, 12:40 PM   #23
Adam Alexander
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

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Howard Dyke wrote:
If your background is in Aikido you have an advantage over any other form of martial art..
Yeah right...until the prosecutor starts rolling clips from Segal movies.
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Old 04-01-2005, 12:23 PM   #24
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

Howard: What advantage do you have over other forms of martial art? I don't understand, can you explain.

On another note. You use lethal force when you feel or preceive killed or are in danger of being killed. You don't worry about who it witnessing it etc. You do it simply because you want to live. end of discussion. I am not smart enough to discuss the various legal ramifications etc that may follow. That is between you and the court.

Personally I'd worry about living first before I worried about what the courts might think...but that is just me.
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Old 04-03-2005, 04:12 PM   #25
Hardware
 
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Re: The "Martial" Side of Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Howard: What advantage do you have over other forms of martial art? I don't understand, can you explain.

On another note. You use lethal force when you feel or preceive killed or are in danger of being killed. You don't worry about who it witnessing it etc. You do it simply because you want to live. end of discussion. I am not smart enough to discuss the various legal ramifications etc that may follow. That is between you and the court.

Personally I'd worry about living first before I worried about what the courts might think...but that is just me.
Parallel scenarios - all other circumstances being similar - an Aikido practitioner has killed or severely maimed someone in self defence and a practitioner of say, Karate has done the same.

The Aikido-ist has a better chance of countering any potential accusations of using excessive force because Aikido senseis could be summoned, who would be able to explain that the force of the attacker is used against him and that there are no attacks, per se in Aikido. It would be easier to argue that the dead assailant, (who attacked an Aikidoka) was an architect of his own demise.

I agree that the first concern is remaining unkilled - but in the Monday morning quarterbacking that may ensue, you should be able to use the underlying principles of Aikido to help clear yourself - moreso than in other martial arts. That's not saying you couldn;t clear yourself if using other styles.

I'm also not saying this should be a factor in causing someone to select Aikido over another art that'as more appealing to them - I just think it's a minute point of trivia about Aikido.
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