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Old 10-04-2005, 10:54 AM   #26
senshincenter
 
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Re: Women and generalizations

Hi Mike,

I did not set up an opposition between ki/kokyu skills and overall body conditioning. I do not see it as one or the other - that was my point. I'm more of the opinion that overall conditioning allows for a better use of technique (which of course includes ki/kokyu development, etc.) and a quicker learning curve in acquiring technique. If this last statement is something you got to disagree with, yes, perhaps we are saying something very different.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 10-04-2005, 11:09 AM   #27
Mike Sigman
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Re: Women and generalizations

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I did not set up an opposition between ki/kokyu skills and overall body conditioning.
But you can't develop ki/kokyu skills while you're doing weight training, David. Hence my comment.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 10-04-2005, 11:26 AM   #28
senshincenter
 
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Re: Women and generalizations

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the follow-up.

You mean to point out a time management problem?

If so, well, for me, that is where dedication comes in. One does it all because one doesn't just find time to train, one makes time to train. Right?

To be sure, if one has "no time" to lift weights, then one should opt to undergo their body development through the activity they are participating in (in this case, Aikido - which includes ki/kokyu development). However, before I as a teacher opt to encourage a student along this route, I seek to assist a student in reflecting upon the difference between having time and making time. When a student engages in this self-reflection, at their own pace, 9 times out of 10 the time management issue you mention goes away. Hence, one has a student that not only understands the discipline necessary for training, necessary for going from finding time to making time, you as teacher, and they as student, also gain the benefits that being well-conditioned brings to the learning and application of technique (which includes ki/kokyu development).

There are lot of skills to learn to practice Aikido correctly - so time management issues are always going to come up. Wouldn't you agree? In my opinion, time management issues do not suggest that being well-conditioned prevents one from attaining any other particular skill or that being under-conditioned brings one better to any other particular skill - which is the current of the thread.

That is where I was coming from. Hope that makes sense,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 10-04-2005, 11:32 AM   #29
Mike Sigman
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Re: Women and generalizations

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
You mean to point out a time management problem? [[snip]] In my opinion, time management issues do not suggest that being well-conditioned prevents one from attaining any other particular skill or that being under-conditioned brings one better to any other particular skill - which is the current of the thread.
No, I was just saying that doing weight-lifting and other forms of conditioning/movement which involve "normal movement" will simply block you from learning the "must-be-trained" type of movement in kokyu/ki skills. You can't do both at the same time and ever get anywhere with the ki/kokyu skills.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 10-04-2005, 11:32 AM   #30
giriasis
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Re: Women and generalizations

I don't think David is too off base by saying that its important to develop one's overall body conditioning, but I also don't think Mike is wrong in saying that we need good kokyu power.

When I first started aikido, I was significantly overweight at 195 pounds at 5'5" tall. That's obese according the BMI. Then I lost some weight, about 10-15 pounds and maintained my weight around 180-85 for about two-three years. Still obese but not as bad as 195 and I was more physically active than what I was in the past (no physical activity). During this time I would have said that general body conditioning isn't important, but then I took another leap in my physical fitness. I started a physical conditioning routine that included light weights combined with cardiovascular aerobic exercise. Also, during this time I started to learn about my physical health and well-being also I began to strengthen my core -- back, abs, hip flexors.

After about 6 months of these kind of work outs my weight dropped to about 160 pounds -- still technically "overweight" per the BMI but no longer "obese." Yes, I increased my stamina by improving my cardiovascular health and I increased my muscular endurance, but more importantly during this time period "I found my center." At the same time, I started to receive comments from my seniors that I was really moving from my center and generating my power from there. I attribute "finding my center" to this physical fitness regiment because as part of weight training you need to learn to focus on each muscle and NOT use momentum like we do in aikido. But, by learning to focus on a particular muscle I could begin to feel my body working and discover how to make my body move. I could understand the physical clues my body was sending me and then contract or relax the necessary muscles.

Yes, being more physically fit helps, but there are still people stronger than me despite how physically fit I become. I might be physically stronger for my size or health, but still "weaker" compared to the 6'2" 210lbs men that I train with. However, in discovering my "center" in the process I've discovered this sort of kokyu power that Mike speaks of. So for me and my experience, you both are right. Physical fitness and good body conditioning feeds into having good kokyu power. But, you still need to make a conscious effort to not muscle your partners, and when I say "muscle" I mean trying to push through the techniques without proper technique.

Learning good kokyu power and having a well-conditioned body (not an over-conditioned body-builder type or underconditioned "skinny-fat" type body) does lead to good aikido whether male or female. At least that's my experience.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 10-04-2005, 12:00 PM   #31
senshincenter
 
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Re: Women and generalizations

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
No, I was just saying that doing weight-lifting and other forms of conditioning/movement which involve "normal movement" will simply block you from learning the "must-be-trained" type of movement in kokyu/ki skills. You can't do both at the same time and ever get anywhere with the ki/kokyu skills.

Regards,

Mike
Hi Mike,

I think I understand what you are saying - it is a matter of reinforcing habitual responses while attempting to learn new responses, etc.

Again, that is where discipline comes in - for me. Much of training is like that - since we are not always on the mat and spend more of our day with our habitual self than with our soon-to-be cultivated self. This is true even when we are on the mat - in the beginning at least. Somehow, with discipline, we make it through these odds, so that our less visited cultivated self becomes our more dominant aspect and our habitual self becomes less prevalent (i.e. adopting a new habitual self).

Moreover, one can always overlap certain aspects of their training - or rather, one always has to if one truly wants to mature - as you would know. One type of training does not have to be so contrary to another type of training. So, for example, one can lift weights to condition the body, and to gain the benefits of a conditioned body, while using such time to feel for things like gravity and/or ground paths, etc. This would be the necessary inverse of seeking not to use the muscle one has incorrectly in one's Aikido practice.

We do this overlapping all the time with several aspects of our practice. Sure, we may not get it right at first, but we eventually do with guidance and with discipline. Moreover, this overlapping learning strategy is also one very prime way of seeking to spend more time with our cultivating practices (and thus seeking to spend less time with our habitual responses).

However, again, if a person lacks the discipline (or guidance) to merge aspects of their training so that they can overlap, or if one is a kind of person that cannot transcend their habitual responses but through restriction and renunciation (assuming such people exist), this again would not suggest that being under-conditioned aids one in gaining proficiency in the art (which includes ki/kokyu development). Nor would it suggest that muscular strength is a hindrance to gaining proficiency in the art (which included ki/kokyu development). Moreover, it would not suggest that the more subtle aspects of the art are not aided by physical conditioning - whether we are talking about learning or application.

This is my opinion - for me weight lifting does not hinder the learning of technique - even technique that seeks not to use particular muscles groups that are often key to weight lifting. For me, overall conditioning always assists us, no matter what we are doing, even if what we are doing is sitting at a desk and typing.


thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 10-04-2005, 12:03 PM   #32
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Re: Women and generalizations

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote:
I don't think David is too off base by saying that its important to develop one's overall body conditioning, but I also don't think Mike is wrong in saying that we need good kokyu power.

When I first started aikido, I was significantly overweight at 195 pounds at 5'5" tall. That's obese according the BMI. Then I lost some weight, about 10-15 pounds and maintained my weight around 180-85 for about two-three years. Still obese but not as bad as 195 and I was more physically active than what I was in the past (no physical activity). During this time I would have said that general body conditioning isn't important, but then I took another leap in my physical fitness. I started a physical conditioning routine that included light weights combined with cardiovascular aerobic exercise. Also, during this time I started to learn about my physical health and well-being also I began to strengthen my core -- back, abs, hip flexors.

After about 6 months of these kind of work outs my weight dropped to about 160 pounds -- still technically "overweight" per the BMI but no longer "obese." Yes, I increased my stamina by improving my cardiovascular health and I increased my muscular endurance, but more importantly during this time period "I found my center." At the same time, I started to receive comments from my seniors that I was really moving from my center and generating my power from there. I attribute "finding my center" to this physical fitness regiment because as part of weight training you need to learn to focus on each muscle and NOT use momentum like we do in aikido. But, by learning to focus on a particular muscle I could begin to feel my body working and discover how to make my body move. I could understand the physical clues my body was sending me and then contract or relax the necessary muscles.

Yes, being more physically fit helps, but there are still people stronger than me despite how physically fit I become. I might be physically stronger for my size or health, but still "weaker" compared to the 6'2" 210lbs men that I train with. However, in discovering my "center" in the process I've discovered this sort of kokyu power that Mike speaks of. So for me and my experience, you both are right. Physical fitness and good body conditioning feeds into having good kokyu power. But, you still need to make a conscious effort to not muscle your partners, and when I say "muscle" I mean trying to push through the techniques without proper technique.

Learning good kokyu power and having a well-conditioned body (not an over-conditioned body-builder type or underconditioned "skinny-fat" type body) does lead to good aikido whether male or female. At least that's my experience.
Yes, this is my point exactly. They are not oppositions for me.

David M. Valadez
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Old 10-04-2005, 02:02 PM   #33
Mike Sigman
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Re: Women and generalizations

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I think I understand what you are saying - it is a matter of reinforcing habitual responses while attempting to learn new responses, etc.
Hi David:

No, I'm saying you can't mix the two and every really learn good ki and kokyu skills. You can't use "intention" (What Ueshiba called the "Divine Will") to power your movements on occasion and normal movement most of the rest of the time and ever expect to gain any skills in intention-powered movement.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 10-04-2005, 09:25 PM   #34
Trish Greene
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Re: Women and generalizations

HI Anne Marie,

I am just begining my journey in learning Aikido and it sounds like I am starting at the same place that you started your training, classified as "obese" on the BMI scale at 180lbs and 5'3" at 35 yo. I have only been training for a month now, but in that month, my body has been doing things that I never thought I would be able to do...rolls, breakfalls etc etc. I have been concentrating more on the grace of the movements and the knowledge that it doesn't take muscle to do the movements that I have been training in.

But I do agree with you and the others about being in a good physical condition, not just for your health but, as you stated, it is easier to find your center when you are more in control of your body.

Only a beginers observation...
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Old 10-05-2005, 02:49 PM   #35
MaryKaye
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Re: Women and generalizations

No amount of my teachers' careful and good advice on how to move did half as much for me, on the specific task of standing back up after a backfall, as situps and crunches did. If the muscles just aren't up to the task--and it takes some muscles to get 165 lbs of woman back on her feet--trying to compensate with skill is very hard. (And was very bad for my knees, as it turned out.)

I'm with Anne Marie; I see the two as complementary, not conflicting. It is not the most muscular people in my dojo who are most prone to solve problems via muscling; this seems to have more to do with personality than body type.

Mary Kaye
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Old 10-05-2005, 03:28 PM   #36
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Re: Women and generalizations

Quote:
Mary Kuhner wrote:
I'm with Anne Marie; I see the two as complementary, not conflicting. It is not the most muscular people in my dojo who are most prone to solve problems via muscling; this seems to have more to do with personality than body type.
Mary Kaye
I agree w/ both those statements.
I've got hyperflexible joints and if I don't do strength training, mild but continuous, I cannot support them properly.
I'm a small woman but between growing up in NY and earning a living in my early 20s at a food coop warehouse (hauling 100# sacks of beans, etc) my energy tended to naturally come up and forward pugnaciously with arms ready to work. My first aikido instructor didn't know if he should laugh or scowl when he'd come at me with a strike and instead of getting off the line, I'd stand tall, firm and raise my arms to block with a mean look on my face :-)

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-05-2005, 07:14 PM   #37
macmcluskie
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Re: Women and generalizations

I am new to this board but I think many of you are missing the point. We all come to Aikido with different stuff. Some with too much muscle, some with too little structure, some with poor fitness, some with no coordination, some with no flexibility and some with too much. We also come with goals and steps we want to take, anger and frustration, competition and most of all ego.
We all have some combination of these issues all the time that we must let go of.
One Sensei refereed to all this stuff as our cup. He said to fully embrace aikido we must empty our cup. Our path is not to "Not Muscle" but to let go of all of this stuff.
So please recognize that different people have different obstacles but that doesn't make aikido easier. The truth is if your obstacles are not pointed out aikido might be more difficult Brenda
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Old 10-06-2005, 07:50 AM   #38
rob_liberti
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Re: Women and generalizations

This statement is taking it too far in my opinion.

"Just because we (women and the small in stature) face resistance more often because we are not as strong as the typical guy does not make it any easier to learn aikido."

It does make learning easier in terms of the physical aspect, for the exact same reason we _isolate_ muscles when we do weight lifting - you eliminate extra effort and focus your effort where it will help you more.

If there is a poor attitude in your dojo towards encouraging strong arm bandits, that's a separate (isolated) issue as far as I'm concerned. (Which should be addressed of course.)

For me, it all comes down to what you value and therefore what you fail to focus on and when. So for instance, I have no doubt that intention-oriented movement is important to develop. I just generally don't trust that someone knows the "best way" or "only way" if I can't get to work out with someone really great who _exclusively_ learned that "best way". Again, back to isolating...

Ron, I would love to meet that guy. That site says he is a godan. I know plenty of godans who I wouldn't say have the depths of aikido at their finger tips. I could name a shihan or two that tried fairly unreasonable techniques on me (but not on this site!). I guess I would have to get thrown by him a few times to be convinced that he is so grossly under ranked in terms of aikido ability (or should I say standing BJJ ability). It is possible, but I'm sure you would agree that ranking tends to go the other way more often.

Rob
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:12 AM   #39
giriasis
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Re: Women and generalizations

Quote:
This statement is taking it too far in my opinion.

"Just because we (women and the small in stature) face resistance more often because we are not as strong as the typical guy does not make it any easier to learn aikido."

It does make learning easier in terms of the physical aspect, for the exact same reason we _isolate_ muscles when we do weight lifting - you eliminate extra effort and focus your effort where it will help you more.
Well, since you're quoting me. Let's look at the rest of what I posted in relation to that line...

Quote:
Actually, it can make it more frustrating and challenging to learn, especially when you turn around and see the guys and stronger people muscle through and are treated as if they are better as a result. When your stronger than someone it is harder to really feel whether you muscle through a technique, but when your smaller/ weaker than someone you notice it right away. But being able to notice this right away doesn't mean it's easier to learn as a result. Yes, eventually, we will learn to find our center and learn to apply the technique without muscling but that's because we don't have any choice otherwise.
(emphasis added)

The rest of that paragraph was meant to explain my first statement and put it into context.

I agree with your final statement regarding how and why the less strong person learns, but since I've been that "weaker person" I do not think my assestment is too off base. It's based on my experience and my experience is not wrong. Please don't tell me it's easier when you see me struggle with learning to do a technique to someone stronger than me. THAT is exactly what Camilla, the initial poster, was getting annoyed about. You are making an assumption it should be easy when she is clearly saying it's not. We get frustrated because we have a mountain to move which can be just as frustrating as learning not to plow over your partners. (Oh, I can say this as most of the men in my dojo are stronger than me, I am not the most petite woman in the world. I can easily plow over the smaller framed women in my dojo.)

Quote:
If there is a poor attitude in your dojo towards encouraging strong arm bandits, that's a separate (isolated) issue as far as I'm concerned. (Which should be addressed of course.)
I really wasn't addressing someone who is tanking or being jerk. There are the one or two who like to tank, but for the most part I'm skilled enough to deal with the jerks. My sensei does a great job dealing with these folks so please don't worry about poor attitudes. My sensei is very supportive and the overall tone in our dojo is positive.

However, I encourage the "strong arm bandits" these days, especially those senior to me -- those I respect have have good training relationship with. There is much benefit from learning from these folks and for the most part they are not being jerks, but want you to learn. No that's not a poor attitude but good aikido.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:31 AM   #40
Mike Sigman
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Re: Women and generalizations

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
(re something called "intention-oriented movement", which I suppose refers to "intention-directed movement") I just generally don't trust that someone knows the "best way" or "only way" if I can't get to work out with someone really great who _exclusively_ learned that "best way".
I don't know of anyone who has claimed to know the "best way" or "only way", but I know of several people who have continually trivialized the idea, don't know how to do it, and have tried to stop the discussions.

Regards,

Mike "As Long as Everyone is taking oblique shots" Sigman
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:47 AM   #41
Mike Sigman
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Re: Women and generalizations

Quote:
Brenda McLuskie wrote:
We all come to Aikido with different stuff. Some with too much muscle, some with too little structure, some with poor fitness, some with no coordination, some with no flexibility and some with too much. We also come with goals and steps we want to take, anger and frustration, competition and most of all ego.
We all have some combination of these issues all the time that we must let go of.
I've had a couple of one-on-one discussions and practice sessions recently with several different Aikido practitioners and I think the subject of women, strength, kokyu, etc., is being heavily mistaken as some sort of vague "use your center" thing like the Pilates people advertise (wrongly, in respect to kokyu/ki, by a long shot).

There is a way of movement and doing things that is just as substantive as zempo-kaiten undo... it can be taught directly, practiced directly; it makes people stronger. Like zempo-kaiten undo, you have to learn to relax to do it correctly, but more importantly, like zempo-kaiten, just relaxing and "not using muscle" won't teach you to do it.

As a couple of people noted to me recently, ones who have some skills in these areas, it is *flabbergasting* (you can also read "hilarious" into it at times) to watch these sorts of conversations time-and-again discarded or converted into vague-feelings-babble. I watched Rob John's very revealing discussions yanked out of a "General" thread and banished to the bottom-of-the-list "Other" category as just a typical example of what happens when someone puts pearls in front of you-know-whats. "Flabbergasting" seems to be the same word that occurs to a number of the people reading this forum in re these topics. And it's not everyone in Aikido, it's appears to be a certain bloc.

But it's fun to watch. I have an appointment to work with a female Sandan (I need to try/practice a few things and she's agreed to help/exchange-info) in the near future. If it pans out, I'll see what I can do to help boost her physical power well above whatever she has now and I'll report on the progress.

Mike
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:47 AM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Women and generalizations

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Ron, I would love to meet that guy. That site says he is a godan. I know plenty of godans who I wouldn't say have the depths of aikido at their finger tips. I could name a shihan or two that tried fairly unreasonable techniques on me (but not on this site!). I guess I would have to get thrown by him a few times to be convinced that he is so grossly under ranked in terms of aikido ability (or should I say standing BJJ ability). It is possible, but I'm sure you would agree that ranking tends to go the other way more often.

Rob
I've trained with some of his students, I don't think rank enters into it. He's good, his students are good, he's been doing aikido an awfull long time. I really don't know what his rank is now. Personally, I think he'd exceed your expectations. He was Steven Miranda's first teacher, and I believe ranked him to nidan or sandan.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 10-07-2005, 12:05 AM   #43
Paula Lydon
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Re: Women and generalizations

~~I've always been exceptionally strong physically (and mentally from upbringing), and tend to go at most things like a pit bull, as a fellow jujitska once put it. I'm firery and pro-active by nature. It took me nearly eight months of sitting meditation to actually SIT STILL. I've spend the past decade focused on beginning to understand how to generate power internally instead of externally. Tai Chi helped greatly with this. I still practice yoga and do light weight training because I think this is good for muscle and skeletal integrity, and so that I might continue to pursue this budo path--as well as lots of hiking. Really getting the deeper principles of aiki into my body has been almost a twenty year endeavor and there's still so much room for growth. It was not easy; it did not come naturally. I felt like I was fighting my basic instincts most of the time. That's a bit of my story concerning this

~~Paula~~
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Old 10-07-2005, 01:17 AM   #44
dyffcult
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Re: Women and generalizations

I assume that most practiionters understand that aikido is not about strength, but technique.

From that general assumption, women will always advance in the beginning of their training faster then their male counterparts, when all other things are equal. In the beginning....

Why? Because women seldom rely upon strength. They aren't trained by life to do so. Men are. Women naturally rely upon their hips and leverage. Men don't. Women assume that their counterparts will be stronger. Men don't.

In beginning aikido, women are more inclined to rely upon technique and their hips then strength. Men are more inclined to rely upon their strength, period. Women will therefore advance quicker in the beginning then men in aikido, given the same level of training.

Men need time to understand that strength is not the answer. There is always someone stronger than they. Women always assume that their oppoent is stronger then they.

Unfortunately, women seldom train at the same level or intensity as men. Therefore, comparing men to women in aikido is often like comparing apples to oranges.

Whether women are willing to focus on their training at the same level as the men, ...well, ... that is a whole other thread.....

Brenda
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Old 10-07-2005, 10:06 AM   #45
ian
 
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Re: Women and generalizations

This is a generalisation, but I see that women tend to be more scared about doing ukemi (and thus progress more slowly with this), but also tend to be less competitve and thus prefer to learn how to do it properly than to beat their uke to the ground. Their centre of gravity is almost always lower than a man, so they should find it easier moving from the hips, but that doesn't mean they'll move their hips properly (vis. men generally are good at press-ups whereas women are good at sit-ups). However suggesting that an individual should be better able to do something more easily because they are a woman does not necessarily follow logically and is a consequence of their error in classification rather than your error in not being the average woman.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 10-07-2005, 04:31 PM   #46
Qatana
 
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Re: Women and generalizations

Brenda that is Exactly the generalisation that many of us have exception with. All I know from my own experience is that of the four women who have started training since me, one took two years to get invited to test for fifth kyu, one quit, and one just bought her first gi and I had the painful experience of watching her ukemi yesterday, and the two Men who started since me, one has tested for fifth kyu in nine months of training, and the other had ranking in aiki-jutsu.
So in my experience it takes women far longer to get aikido.

I said in a post that i never posted that I will try to muscle through any person, anything, at any time, and that is not gonna budge Anybody over 125 pounds.I have no choice but to do technique correctly, but even as an extremely fit trained dancer, technique doesn't come any easier to me than any man.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 10-08-2005, 05:08 PM   #47
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
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Re: Women and generalizations

Quote:
Brenda Allen wrote:
I assume that most practiionters understand that aikido is not about strength, but technique.
imnsho it's not about technique, either; it's about learning how to move in general more than in specific, and recognizing one's openings and those of one's opponent.

Quote:
Because women seldom rely upon strength. They aren't trained by life to do so. Men are. Women naturally rely upon their hips and leverage. Men don't. Women assume that their counterparts will be stronger. Men don't.....Women always assume that their oppoent is stronger then they.
Unfortunately, women seldom train at the same level or intensity as men. Therefore, comparing men to women in aikido is often like comparing apples to oranges.
Speak for yourself, Brenda. Using words like "always" and absolute statements like ' women do and men don't' gets beyond the realm of generalization and into the realm of stereotyping.

Last month for the first time one of my sempai didn't tell me 'you're trying to out-muscle me!' when I trained with him. I'm a 5'5" woman; he's a 6'5" man who probably weighs in the 300's with most of that being muscle and bone. His arms are literally as big as my legs.
It's taken a mere 5.5 years to get there.

As far as intensity...well, there are some guys at my dojo who train more fiercely than I do, but there are more who don't.

imnsho.

-L
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Old 10-08-2005, 06:00 PM   #48
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
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Re: Women and generalizations

I didn't mean to strip up a bees nest.

Anne, I read the rest of what you posted. I saw the emotional difficulty of having the folks who are muscling techniques getting treated as better as a separate issue from the physical advantage of being unable to cheat as much as physically stronger folks. (Encouraging that kind of strength is a dojo problem in my opinion.) Also, I hope we have a difference in meaning for the term strong arm bandit as opposed to someone who is just good at resisting with their full body. I totally agree that at long as it is level appropriate, the stronger the resistance the better. I think a strong arm bandit resists from the wrong place and doesn't have very good aikido.

Mike, you mentioned Robert John. I was thinking of his teacher and many others who have their own way that they believe in. If you recall, my first question to him was how good are the students in that system. That's the best way to get buy in from me. I agree that you never said you had the right way or the only way so in the future there is no need to worry yourself or defend yourself against percieved oblique shots from me in that area. Good luck helping your sandan friend.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 10-08-2005 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 10-08-2005, 08:50 PM   #49
giriasis
Dojo: Sand Drift Aikikai, Cocoa Florida
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Re: Women and generalizations

Quote:
Anne, I read the rest of what you posted. I saw the emotional difficulty of having the folks who are muscling techniques getting treated as better as a separate issue from the physical advantage of being unable to cheat as much as physically stronger folks. (Encouraging that kind of strength is a dojo problem in my opinion.) Also, I hope we have a difference in meaning for the term strong arm bandit as opposed to someone who is just good at resisting with their full body. I totally agree that at long as it is level appropriate, the stronger the resistance the better. I think a strong arm bandit resists from the wrong place and doesn't have very good aikido.
It's hardly a bee's nest, Rob. Yes, in my first dojo those who could muscle techniques would get treated "better" than those who couldn't, but in my present school they're not treated better the students themselves act with the allustion of being "better" because can just push over their partners. Fortunately, in my present school is large enough to balance out this kind of inequity since we have many guys who can out muscle the "resisters" and show them that their technique works. Those who are willing to listen to me get the instruction of me demonstrating what they are doing to me, and then I show how I can't throw them. I then tell them if they train with someone stronger that is what will happen. For the most part, these kind of guys do listen to me. But in the end everyone is expected to do the techniques correctly and the bad attitudes are dropped or they weed themselves out of the dojo when they discover bulling is not approved behavior. And,after moving to my current school, seeing these kinds of behavior balance out was reassuring to me.

To me someone who is a strong arm bandit can be a newbie who stiffens up because they are afraid to fall or newbie with previous martial arts experience who will resist at all costs even if it means they'll get hurt because they don't want to fall regardless. For the most part, I can handle these guys these days and control them, but when I was less skilled these guys were hard to train with. Then, there are the few who resist just to prove to you can't throw them.

The "stong arm bandits" that I like are those guys who are stronger than me who I allow to resist me so I can learn to respond to such an attack since not all potential attacks, if I ever get attacked, are "good aikido" attacks. I'll solicit this kind of attack from them. I But I've only like doing that kind of training with those I've developed a good training relationship with as it's easy for egos to get out of hand.

But the frustration isn't just in seeing the big guys "get away with doing it" (regardless of whether they are treated better than) but with an inherent frustration that comes when you meet resistence from your partner and sometimes its exacerbate by someone who doesn't understand the technique and can't correct yours. Hence you don't learn and you don't get better. It's my experience that you have to be taught how to do this. Learning to do this just dosen't magically happen because I'm not as strong or because I might have lower center of gravity. Until a person obtains a basic understanding of the principals figuring this out for oneself can be very frustrating.

And to Brenda,

I agree with others that your statements are really broad generalization. I'm assuming your basing this on your own experience can you give us some more specifics as to you particular situation? I think I might know what your getting at.

Last edited by giriasis : 10-08-2005 at 09:03 PM.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 10-08-2005, 10:43 PM   #50
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
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Re: Women and generalizations

I'm glad to hear that your current dojo is does not have the problem of muscling being praised over technique.

I understand that not being able to cheat by out-muscling does not mean that you will magically figure out the best way to handle it. I can certainly see that if people have that expectation of you that it would be frustrating. I just assume that anyone making such a comment is more likely commenting on how they - and/or people they know - spent decades of dedicated practice down the path of over-muscling things and wish they could have that time back.

I agree completely that there is no problem with beginners being tight and strong - and that it is good to learn how to work with them (and anyone at any level doing that). My current opinion is that you have to learn how to unify, move with them such that they lose their balance, and then when their mind goes to their balance apply a joint lock so they cannot set up resistance. I used to try to apply a joint lock to take people's balance and I found that to be far less reliable than what I'm currently doing (although I'm still not batting 1000). What principles do you find the most helpful in such situations?

Rob
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