Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > AikiWeb System

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-05-2002, 12:01 AM   #1
AikiWeb System
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,320
Offline
AikiWeb Poll for the week of May 5, 2002:

What percentage of people starting at your aikido dojo reach shodan (black belt) in aikido?
  • I don't do aikido
  • 0%
  • 5%
  • 10%
  • 15%
  • 20%
  • 25%
  • 30%
  • 35%
  • 40%
  • 45%
  • 50%
  • 55%
  • 60%+
Here are the current results.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2002, 06:39 AM   #2
Greg Jennings
Dojo: S&G BJJ
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,132
United_States
Offline
I'd estimate that our dojo is currently running closer to 1%.

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2002, 07:11 AM   #3
Johan Tibell
Dojo: Aikido Dojo Gamlestaden
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 56
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
I'd estimate that our dojo is currently running closer to 1%.
Here too. I'm really curious about those who answered <60%, lit all my McDojo warning signs. We don't get <60% of our beginners to stay a year!

Best Regards,

Johan Tibell

Pour your spirit and heart
Into daily technical training
To approach the many through a single principle
This is "The Way of the Fighting Man"
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2002, 07:47 AM   #4
Randy Pertiet
Dojo: Tohkon Judo Club
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 26
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
I'd estimate that our dojo is currently running closer to 1%.

Best Regards,
I was looking for 1% as well. In our dojo, you do Kote Gaeshi on the newbies once, and most are gone. It's a good filter technique.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2002, 08:45 AM   #5
Edward
Location: Bangkok
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 803
Thailand
Offline
Jun has probably forgot to add a zero to 100. Then votes start to make sense.

At our dojo, 1% would be very pretentious. Definitely less than 1%.

Cheers,
Edward
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2002, 10:30 AM   #6
Johan Tibell
Dojo: Aikido Dojo Gamlestaden
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 56
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
Jun has probably forgot to add a zero to 100. Then votes start to make sense.

At our dojo, 1% would be very pretentious. Definitely less than 1%.

Cheers,
Edward
Yeah, it's probably less than 1%. We have "produced" 8 or so yudansha at our dojo during our 15-20 (when did we start??) years. 60 beginners per year equals 900-1200 people. 8 out of that is a bit under 1%.

Best Regards,

Johan Tibell

Pour your spirit and heart
Into daily technical training
To approach the many through a single principle
This is "The Way of the Fighting Man"
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2002, 10:33 AM   #7
Jim ashby
Dojo: Phoenix Coventry
Location: Coventry, England
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 303
Offline
Randy. Kote Gaeshi on newbies to weed them out? If our Sensei saw a full Kote Gaeshi on a newbie the tori would be up a certain creek with inadequate means of propulsion. As to "weeding out" newbies with pain... words fail me.
Have fun

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2002, 05:23 PM   #8
Chocolateuke
Dojo: Muhu Dojo
Location: Middle of nowhere in California 14 miles from Buellton
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 238
Offline
Tongue

The only person with a Dan rank in our dojo is the Sensei. so, i voted o%

Dallas Adolphsen
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2002, 06:24 PM   #9
Amendes
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 130
Offline
I was looking for 1% but pikced 0% because 1 is closer to 0 then 5..

Just like they would do at the bank.
Muhuhahahahaaha
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2002, 09:59 PM   #10
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Maybe (I'm sure) he was joking.

If you include all of those who train at our dojo it is 60% (I voted 55%). A lot of university students train here and it is pretty much a given that they will be Shodan at the end of their university studies. Regular members take longer and don't have the cohesion of the university club so maybe it drops down 20%. What I find more astounding is the drop once people get their Shodan - its when everything begins.

The joining fee is steep, I think people want to train for at least three months to get their money's worth and then - Bawahahahahah they are ours. We are not a cult

Quote:
Originally posted by Jim ashby
Randy. Kote Gaeshi on newbies to weed them out? If our Sensei saw a full Kote Gaeshi on a newbie the tori would be up a certain creek with inadequate means of propulsion. As to "weeding out" newbies with pain... words fail me.
Have fun

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2002, 12:20 AM   #11
Edward
Location: Bangkok
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 803
Thailand
Offline
I assume Peter is talking about Shodokan Hombu. Certainly people who go to practice at the hombu dojo of any style should be serious enough about aikido to practice intensively and usually with the purpose of getting their shodan asap, especially with the high cost of training and also living in Japan.

But of course at local dojos, ordinary people looking for some exercice, or having seen Seagal sensei movies... come to try aikido for a while, but drop out later for whatever reason (many actually, like not getting shodan in 1 year, discovering that aikido is not as soft as advertised, or too soft, or difficult to master...etc.etc.).

I have read statistics somewhere that only about 1% do make it to shodan generally.

As those who work so hard to get their shodan, and feel that they have finally achieved what they were looking for, and quit thereafter, probably have never understood what aikido is all about, so, "bon debarras"!

Cheers,
Edward
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2002, 12:44 AM   #12
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Hi Edward;

First I have sent an e-mail to Bob with your name - hope its the correct address but it should be ok.

Shodokan Honbu, and I believe the same is true for Aikikai Honbu, also function as neighborhood dojos. Sure both have people who come from abroad, have university students and members from other dojos but many are housewives or working people that are there for health and hobby. In fact I would go so far as to say that these people form the core of the dojo. I think a lot has to do with the fact that many Japanese play as hard as they work. Just take a look at tennis clubs and music training. Budo training is very cheap compared to these endeavors by the way.

That said I believe the drop out rate after Shodan has to do with the removal of goal orrientated training. In the Shodokan system especially at the low kyu levels there is a grading every three months, Ikkyu to Shodan might be a year or more, after Shodan it could be years. Many Japanese start out with a goal in mind without understanding the deaper implications of Budo - once they achieve that goal they stick with their original plan like dogma. Still many continue and these are our future - and as for the ones that leave. Well until their departure they usually made good training partners.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2002, 01:11 AM   #13
Jorx
Dojo: Pärnu Aikidoclub Singitai
Location: Pärnu, Estonia
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 322
Estonia
Offline
Yeah I think this 5% is way too overrated. Of course from who do you take this percentage? Some may not count beginners as students and count that percentage from ppl who reach sempai status (3rd kyu at least). From all students who have ever been in our dojo the count would be zero 200 ppl over 5 years and only sensei has black belt. Although it may be predicted that by the time the count reaches 300 and a couple of years from now on, it'll be somewhere between 3 and 6 shodan. So 1-2%. 10+%???? You must be kidding...

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Riveta Sportsclub
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2002, 02:44 AM   #14
Edward
Location: Bangkok
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 803
Thailand
Offline
Hi Peter,

Thanks a lot for the email. I appreciate it.

I will let you know the details.

Cheers,
Edward
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2002, 06:21 AM   #15
Randy Pertiet
Dojo: Tohkon Judo Club
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 26
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Jim ashby
Randy. Kote Gaeshi on newbies to weed them out? If our Sensei saw a full Kote Gaeshi on a newbie the tori would be up a certain creek with inadequate means of propulsion. As to "weeding out" newbies with pain... words fail me.
Have fun
We cycle through all the techniques over time. We don't give you a lot of "pain" at once, only a little over a long period of time.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2002, 06:49 AM   #16
Brian Vickery
Dojo: Aiki-Buken Aikido
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 208
United_States
Offline
Straight Face

Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
I'd estimate that our dojo is currently running closer to 1%.
Yup! ...We're a 1% dojo also!

...when I tell newbies that at least 100 other students will come & go before they reach shodan, they just think I'm joking! ...it's no joke!

Making it to shodan is quite a significant accomplishment!

Now, out of that 1% that make it to shodan, how many of those make it to nidan?!?! Some students covet that 'Black Belt' so much, that once they get it, they soon quit! I'd say about 10% (1 in 10) of shodan make it to nidan in our dojo.

Regards,

Last edited by Brian Vickery : 05-06-2002 at 06:56 AM.

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2002, 09:14 AM   #17
bcole23
Dojo: Eagle Rock Aikido, Ammon, ID
Location: Ammon, ID
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 120
United_States
Offline
I'll reach shodan but it's not my goal. Therefore, I'm quite sure I wont be dropping out after reaching it. Besides, once you make Aikido a part of your life, how can you drop out? (well, I guess you could die)

So my goal is not to train for my next belt, but to practice each and every class with an open mind, open heart, and with full intention.

So how about this question that I'm sure is easily answered by y'all...

What percentage of the people in your dojo, yudansha or not, are making Aikido a part of themselves rather than just being serious 'students'?

This is open to interpretation of course.

Brando
sakurano hana ga saku
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2002, 02:59 PM   #18
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
Why is it that having a 1% shodan rate is something to be proud of? Shouldn't we try to achieve an enviroment with a much higher success rate, like any other form of education? After all, isn't the mark of a great martial artist great students? Or is aikido (and MA in general) a different animal?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2002, 03:27 PM   #19
Brian Vickery
Dojo: Aiki-Buken Aikido
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 208
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Lyle Bogin
Why is it that having a 1% shodan rate is something to be proud of? Shouldn't we try to achieve an enviroment with a much higher success rate, like any other form of education? After all, isn't the mark of a great martial artist great students? Or is aikido (and MA in general) a different animal?
Hello Lyle,

...I don't think the 1% figure is a matter of pride, it's just the way it is. As Bill Murray said in 'Stripes': "That's the fact Jack!"

...I WISH I had the power to change this number ...any suggestion would be greatly appreciated!

Regards,

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2002, 04:38 PM   #20
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Lyle Bogin
Why is it that having a 1% shodan rate is something to be proud of? Shouldn't we try to achieve an enviroment with a much higher success rate, like any other form of education? After all, isn't the mark of a great martial artist great students? Or is aikido (and MA in general) a different animal?
I think the working turnover rate for most MA schools is something like 7%---per month, at least according to the trade rags. In other words, you turn 84% of your students each year. Kind of explains the percentage when looked at in that light.

The other thing this question made me think about is what if we eased the time requirements such that 10% of all students make it to shodan. Suppose then that the average retention time of a student doubled. In other words, after 5 years you have a nidan instead of shodan but your retention rate is such that the average student stayed around 2-years instead of 1-year or whatever the actual number is. Please note that the skill level at 5-years is still the same only the rank is different. Would that be a bad thing?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2002, 07:46 AM   #21
henry brown
 
henry brown's Avatar
Dojo: Soseikan, Worth IL
Location: Chicago suburbs
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 46
Offline
If I can remember an old saying correctly:

The hardest test to take is the second one (because most people drop out after their first test)

I agree that that probably around 90% (+/- 5%) of students never get past the first 6 to 12 months. Then they usually stick around until shodan, even if it takes a long time. After this, there seems to be another 90% drop off. That would put nidan at around 1% of entering students.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 11:22 AM
Article: Clarity and Self-Delusion in One's Training by George S. Ledyard AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 65 12-24-2005 07:34 AM
Poll: How many people train at your aikido dojo? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 5 11-18-2002 06:35 PM
Looking for intensive courses in SE Asia John Yeldham General 5 03-25-2002 02:16 AM
Poll: What percentage of your aikido dojo is female? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 3 12-16-2001 09:28 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:40 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate