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Old 08-05-2011, 10:09 AM   #51
gregstec
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Sczepan and Demetrio are getting pretty close to getting ignored. It is highly recommended that they are ignored.
Who you talking about ?

Greg
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:25 AM   #52
Budd
 
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
the term Ikeda sensei used to describe this is "kata". he said there is a second meaning of "kata" which is different from the normal one. he essentially stated that you changed your inside, i.e. aligned your center in a configuration ahead of time, when a force applies, that particular force conforms to your configuration. using your example, sort of setting your center to tilt the wall at a 45 degree angle. or another example would be shomen uchi ikkyo where you setup your inside (center, internal intestine, spleen, and kidney, and the sandwich you just ate) in the shape of ikkyo, but outward physically you have not moved yet, so when the strike comes, the strike will get deflected into the ikkyo direction that you previously setup. this is the pro-active approach which is sen sen no sen. Ikeda sensei called this "kata".

just thought i threw that in as i remembered from the recent seminar with Ikeda sensei.
This is a great nugget, thanks Phi. I believe Chen Bing has said something similar in regards to "changing inside" to deal with external forces.
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:27 AM   #53
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Who you talking about ?

Greg
Ha! Nice

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Old 08-05-2011, 10:28 AM   #54
Budd
 
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Sczepan and Demetrio are getting pretty close to getting ignored. It is highly recommended that they are ignored.
I don't usually speak about personalities, but I think just because someone says something you don't agree with (or don't find productive) that we need to call for folks to rally for or against like a wolfpack. This is a public forum. People will contribute as they will or will not. It's up to each of us to filter their comments as we will and choose whether or not to respond.

I've known Demetrio through the web for some time and I don't think he's coming from a bad place. I'd encourage him to get hands on time with one of the folks showing "this stuff", but I also think he raises good questions regarding the overall "place" of "this stuff" in the big picture.
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:49 AM   #55
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I don't usually speak about personalities, but I think just because someone says something you don't agree with (or don't find productive) that we need to call for folks to rally for or against like a wolfpack. This is a public forum. People will contribute as they will or will not. It's up to each of us to filter their comments as we will and choose whether or not to respond.

I've known Demetrio through the web for some time and I don't think he's coming from a bad place. I'd encourage him to get hands on time with one of the folks showing "this stuff", but I also think he raises good questions regarding the overall "place" of "this stuff" in the big picture.
+1
Appreciate them both a lot.
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:14 AM   #56
DH
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

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Tom Holz wrote: View Post
You may be thinking of that kind of powerful root that plants you solidly, but also takes away your ability to move. That is a different thing, and as you observe, not very martial. Mark and others here are talking about something else.

If your IP/aiki is sufficiently developed, then a person trying to move you cannot; he feels you are immobile like a brick wall. Conversely, when you do move, he cannot stop you. Even when you appear immobile to the other guy you are, in fact, completely free to move because your stillness and motion become the same thing and the tradeoff between "rooted" and "mobile" dissapears. You develop the ability to completely disregard his attemps to move or pin you if you like. This quality starts small, like a weak muscle, but grows with training.

I say this based on my personal experience. (I started training regularly with Dan around 2006 with very little martial background. I am still not a fighter, but I have felt a large number of people at various seminars, from aikido to experienced fighters who are interested in IP/aiki because they see martial relevance).
Those are good talking points, Tom. I don't think many people who are training this stuff (as it seems to be being called here) have had exposure to IT training that was presented to Traditional artists and fighters and actually worked and was judged to have worth by both groups.
That may be due to the failure of some of those demonstrating this stuff to be able to adequately demonstrate its value past a single art or single platform, (not being capable or familiar enough with more broad ranging skills to make their case) or maybe they don't know how to really teach applicable skills at their current level. I know this has been a continuing problem with expert teachers from the ICMA and JMA. They had power, but it is shown with rather antiquated and marginal uses. Some of those teachers are trying to get a handle on better cross platform applicability. It remains to be seen if they give a rip about any real teaching of these skills though.

Good luck with debating it here.
In the fullness of time, all will be revealed. Those who turned out to be not very good teachers, or who really only had a fair to middling handle on the material/ Those who can do and teach and had good material that was relevant, and also those who like to "say" they are training it and are lazy and full or B.S. and not doing the work anyway, regardless of whether they had good material or not!!

All the best
Dan
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:26 AM   #57
Budd
 
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

I'll pitch in here, as well.

I met Dan in July of 2007 for part of an afternoon at the dojo in his barn. Prior to that, I'd only seen/heard a little about the IS stuff that Ellis was interested in when he'd visit Itten Dojo. What I felt from Dan was definitely something I hadn't seen/felt before, after years practicing aikido, judo, wrestling and karate (as well as playing a bit with boxers, kickboxers and bjj guys within their schools/gyms).

At the time, I didn't have any frame of reference for it, other than it was different and was more the "aiki" as what had been promised in aikido with very obvious martial and practical applications. He was harder to throw (yet not rigid and unyielding), could hit hard with minimal windup, could generate force from strange angles. And this was under some pressure testing.

So at this point, I got very interested in practicing some beginner conditioning exercises that Dan showed. I get a chance to help host Mike at Itten for a seminar and I get even more interested in the "how's it work" aspect. I start training IS exercises A LOT. My power increases A LOT. Joint locks and off-balancing techniques get a lot more difficult to put on me when I'm just being "me" (i.e. not resisting, just staying connected). I also lose thirty pounds of mass yet am stronger and harder to handle (and I was no slouch before, not braggin just sayin).

An aside - this whole "immoveable" thing - it's a very basic beginners foot in the door. The first pass through can make it seem like you're being rigid, then you learn to relax and still be hard to move, then you feel hard to move while you are "moving". Then you feel empty when someone tries to put power in you and you can return it to cast them away (by being/mentally directing their power and your connection with them, the ground and how gravity acts on you as you better condition your body to handle these inputs) or suck them in or combine the two aspects. At this point it's a tactical application of your skill/conditioning into a more freestyle/pressure testing environment.

Several years later, I've continued to work on these things with people as I'm able. Moved to a new state, not actively practicing aikido in a dojo (though very much training Ellis's take on the basic vectors/shapes of "aikido" as how I express "aiki"), have played tourist in mma gyms, bjj schools and a fencing academy. I am in a strange place where I feel like I've been focusing so exclusively on the baseline skills of ki and jin, that I continue to keep looking at how to incorporate them into more "live" settings and overall fitness (it's something I naturally do already to an extent, just working on tuning and making it more pure and in synch).

But because the mma/bjj joints I visit are either teaching you an art from the beginner foundation on up (which is great for learning the art) or are just throwing you in to spar (which is also good for just banging) - it's not helping me as much with my practice/training/conditioning in IS and continuing to wire/build my body (it's a LOT of work, takes a lot of mental effort, is hard and requires some smarts/honesty in continuous assessment).

When I spar or roll, depending on how I play, I can stall guys that are much, much better than I (similar to how others have explained it) in a very relaxed way in grappling. I've decided I need to up my overall conditioning game from an athletic performance persective (more circuit training, cardio, looking into Crossfit) but make sure it's in ways that do not run counter to the IS skill/training. But I perform at a level that surprises the young guys fighting in casino shows when they square up with my increasingly silver-haired self (and while I'd never call myself an orthodox MMA player, I just still maintain it's one of the best milieaus for exploring H2H engagements in a fairly safe setting).

At the end of the day (IMO) IS is a mind/body skill expressed as a conditioned type of physical strength. Really good guys doing it feel "weird". For a couple years, now, I've been able to hit much harder, kick much harder. Lately, I can do it from weird positions (ground and pound and clinch striking gets much more interesting - normal kickboxing range is still not my cup of tea, but I'm short-ish with short limbs, so I cope). I haven't formally trained weapons in a while, but the oft spoken-to notion of your center in your hands, extending out the tip of your sword/stick, becomes a much clearer physical reality the more conditioned your body becomes from an IS perspective - finding this just as I goof around with them or step through old routines.

So all that said - while it hasn't been a goal to objectively measure performance in bjj/mma since starting IS investigations, I can say with confidence that I bring more to the table than I did before (beyond just improving with time as I'm still a "drop-in" at an irregular rate). I think I need to start a study group of some kind (doing who-knows-what) just so I can dedicate some practice to IS expressed through some physical paired exercises. I may start attending some aikido and judo classes to see if I can get some of that there as well - though my experience has been that the instructors spend more time "fixing" you to their model (been on both sides of that one) so we'll see.

I'm in the process of buying a house, so hopeful I can turn the basement into a nice exercise/training area (equipment, mats, bags, oh my). But also looking into a local community center about starting a study group - not even sure what to call it, or what the curriculum might be, but basically I want some regular training partners!

Okay, I'm mostly done. Oh, also, the back and knee ailments from judo/wrestling/aikido?? Much, much better since I started training IS, lost weight, improved a lot of postural/structural stuffs. So from a martial performance perspective, seeing improvements, yup. From an overall quality of life, perspective, seeing lots of improvements, YUP. So where my interest lies in an overall "self cultivation" perspective, this stuff is the shiznit.
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:32 AM   #58
DH
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
+1
Appreciate them both a lot.
Agreed
Detractors can remind people they have to present credible cases. And it works both ways. I no longer have confidence that words and well crafted arguments, proves the validity of physical skills, In fact in many cases it masks what in reality are lack luster skills. Moreover, as we can see with these discussions, even the increasing number of Shihan and senior teachers and Menkyo who are embracing it has no value to certain types of people in the discussion.
I am convinced that were the entire world to shift to this method you would still have people muscling their way through and convinced they were doing the same thing, or it was all mumbo jumbo because, well, after all, they don't understand something that has been around since the inception of the martial arts and they didn't know it.
For me it is the nature or quality of the argument that I pay attention to.

You can always ponder just how effective a debate would prove to be with here with the likes of: Ikeda, Sam Chin, LCD, CXW, HJB, Chiba, or Rickson. Anyone of whom has used etherial language and their own proprietary terms, and several of whom have argued that other experts misunderstood well known concepts.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-05-2011 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 08-05-2011, 12:02 PM   #59
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I don't usually speak about personalities, but I think just because someone says something you don't agree with (or don't find productive) that we need to call for folks to rally for or against like a wolfpack. This is a public forum. People will contribute as they will or will not. It's up to each of us to filter their comments as we will and choose whether or not to respond.

I've known Demetrio through the web for some time and I don't think he's coming from a bad place. I'd encourage him to get hands on time with one of the folks showing "this stuff", but I also think he raises good questions regarding the overall "place" of "this stuff" in the big picture.
I don't know, I guess I am just allergic to trolling and uninformed opinions. I guess do what you feel is right--I'm ignoring them folks.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 08-05-2011, 12:26 PM   #60
DH
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Quote:
Phi Truong wrote:
the term Ikeda sensei used to describe this is "kata". he said there is a second meaning of "kata" which is different from the normal one. he essentially stated that you changed your inside, i.e. aligned your center in a configuration ahead of time, when a force applies, that particular force conforms to your configuration. using your example, sort of setting your center to tilt the wall at a 45 degree angle. or another example would be shomen uchi ikkyo where you setup your inside (center, internal intestine, spleen, and kidney, and the sandwich you just ate) in the shape of ikkyo, but outward physically you have not moved yet, so when the strike comes, the strike will get deflected into the ikkyo direction that you previously setup. this is the pro-active approach which is sen sen no sen. Ikeda sensei called this "kata".

just thought i threw that in as i remembered from the recent seminar with Ikeda sensei.
This is a great nugget, thanks Phi. I believe Chen Bing has said something similar in regards to "changing inside" to deal with external forces.
I think were you to ask him for greater clarification you would find he was talking about shaping a response ....only...in kata.
I have taught a similar thing to a bunch of his students; using each move as a standing posture to be fully expressed within (there are many levels of how that can train the mind/body). Then you start back at the beginning and project into each movement/phase and then make it a fluid continuum.
This is not the way to fight but only to train to eliminate flaws in movement. It trains your body to move across space and respond correctly only in as much as you understood and trained certain things correctly. In reality you would have to have progressed into a fluid mind, fluid body and all the typical timing/ reaction/ distance/vectoring.. blah blah that comes with good budo.

In any event saying "Change your inside" is a very poor description and doesn't really help much. There are specific things to do in order to do that. WIth any teacher, who really knows how much they know or how efficiently they are doing.... what?

As far as postures; the goal is that over time:
posture (meaning erect state)
postures (meaning angles and approaches),
become greatly reduced or needed, the body can be very relaxed and fluid in itself highly responsive and yet fully expressed. This leads to having forces cancel on the surface of any part of your body, and gaining kuzushi on contact and them being manipulated on contact.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 08-05-2011, 12:33 PM   #61
Budd
 
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think were you to ask him for greater clarification you would find he was talking about shaping a response ....only...in kata.
I have taught a similar thing to a bunch of his students; using each move as a standing posture to be fully expressed within (there are many levels of how that can train the mind/body). Then you start back at the beginning and project into each movement/phase and then make it a fluid continuum.
This is not the way to fight but only to train to eliminate flaws in movement. It trains your body to move across space and respond correctly only in as much as you understood and trained certain things correctly. In reality you would have to have progressed into a fluid mind, fluid body and all the typical timing/ reaction/ distance/vectoring.. blah blah that comes with good budo.

In any event saying "Change your inside" is a very poor description and doesn't really help much. There are specific things to do in order to do that. WIth any teacher, who really knows how much they know or how efficiently they are doing.... what?

As far as postures; the goal is that over time:
posture (meaning erect state)
postures (meaning angles and approaches),
become greatly reduced or needed, the body can be very relaxed and fluid in itself highly responsive and yet fully expressed. This leads to having forces cancel on the surface of any part of your body, and gaining kuzushi on contact and them being manipulated on contact.
Cheers
Dan
No argument in the above, but like you alluded to yourself, you gotta start somewhere.
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Old 08-05-2011, 02:26 PM   #62
Fred Little
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

There are many homonyms in Japanese with very different meanings.

Given the context that Phi describes, I would venture that Ikeda Sensei was very likely using the word "kata" not as "form" (Nelson #1599) or "pattern" (Nelson #1077) but as "direction" (Nelson Radical # 70, Character # 2082, -- i.e. using an internal change in the direction of the hara or tandien to effect a change in uke).

Hope this helps.

FL

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Old 08-05-2011, 07:49 PM   #63
asiawide
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Jaemin,

I fear we are veering a little off topic, but why would you "need" to be thrown if you were just standing straight and doing nothing?
You're right. But this is a way to learn some skill. I guess there are three kinds of uke.

1) easily movable uke
2) unmovable uke (though just standing)
3) moving(+attacking) unmovable uke

If you can apply techniques to 2) and 3), it's very easy for 1). But I've seen many can't apply techniques to 2) and 3). Even worse... for 1) too. aren't we? -.-
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