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Old 02-15-2006, 08:45 AM   #151
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Master Jammer II wrote:
Quote:
The fact is that there will always be a gap between accountability and one's name on the Internet (at least until there is some huge leap in technology). With the current technology, if you want a measure of some real accountability, why don't we ask everyone who is going to comment to post some video of their practice - now that would be more like it! Then we'd really know who's who and what's what and "Jon Smith" just won't be that man or woman with an opinion (which anyone can have) anymore.
That really would sort the wheat from the chaff wouldn't it?

Either there would be very few posters after having to 'put their money where their mouth is', or there would be interminable discussions on the relative merits or authenticity of the vids.

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-15-2006, 08:50 AM   #152
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Hi Sara,

Hehe, ok. l33t (leet = elite) is just a silly form of communication that younger folks (particularly online gamers) tend to use on the internet. I dont really mean, im trying to be ironic, honest...

The above stood for: the Internet is for leet speak and pseudonyms.


They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 02-15-2006, 08:57 AM   #153
aikidodragon
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Thanks Nick
the fact that i can some what keep up with all the short form words we use any more amazes me, maybe some day I'll learn the other internet languages. lol

:kiAikido is just origami with people.
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Old 02-15-2006, 09:25 AM   #154
Nick Simpson
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Re: Regarding James Smith

No probs

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:55 AM   #155
Stephen Kotev
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Re: Regarding James Smith

The Dojo is not a Democracy.

The worst dojos feel like a prison, the best feel like a family. How many of you have met Chuck Clark personally? Trained at his dojo?

It's interesting. I was reading a post on E Budo describing the differences between Gendai arts and Koryu. One of the statements (and I am paraphrasing here) was that Gendai arts did not seem to care as much as Koryu arts if their students ‘got' what was being taught. If someone was not very good they were still allowed to train and in a sense ‘wander lost.' From my outsiders perspective of Koryu; I would say that this type of training would not be so permissible. When I observed Phil Relnick Sensei teach Shinto Muso-ryu jodo he was very exacting in what he was expecting from those on the mat.

When I visited the Jiyushinkan the dojo felt more like a Koryu ‘family' than a Gendai dojo. What I mean by all of this is that some of us may be attributing their own contextual assumptions on how an Aikido dojo should be run compared to how the Jiyushinkan is ran. Mario/James is welcome to do what he wants but there were consequences for his actions. I think if we were to view his behavior in the context of koryu the actions and decisions of his seniors become more logical.

Granted there are a lot of assumptions in this statement that may not correspond to what actually occurred but I feel the comparison is valuable.


Regards,
Stephen Kotev
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Old 02-16-2006, 12:14 PM   #156
Stephen Kotev
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Stephen. As I said...it is not our place to judge the matter...we are not 'inside the door'. Unless a part of that culture/family/dojo/group, it becomes very difficult to know what is right or wrong in their context. As an outsider, if I saw some exorbitant amount of physical injuries coming out of the dojo, I might be moved to criticize.

Since that is not the case, it's pretty much 'none of my business', especially since the miscreant pretty much got what he asked for. There are some places where there'd be a butt kicking in the mix, as well.

Best,
Ron (not that I'd necessarily agree with that)

Hey Ron,

No judgement on my end, just clarification.

What's done is done.

I just felt that some of the arguements were lacking the appropriate context to help understand why what happend.

You are absolutely correct that we can't judge. This does not stop others from their own conjecture.

Honestly, the whole thing is unfortunate.

All the Best,
Stephen
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Old 02-16-2006, 03:48 PM   #157
James Smithe
 
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Stephen Kotev wrote:
The Dojo is not a Democracy.

The worst dojos feel like a prison, the best feel like a family. How many of you have met Chuck Clark personally? Trained at his dojo?

It's interesting. I was reading a post on E Budo describing the differences between Gendai arts and Koryu. One of the statements (and I am paraphrasing here) was that Gendai arts did not seem to care as much as Koryu arts if their students ‘got' what was being taught. If someone was not very good they were still allowed to train and in a sense ‘wander lost. From my outsiders perspective of Koryu; I would say that this type of training would not be so permissible. When I observed Phil Relnick Sensei teach Shinto Muso-ryu jodo he was very exacting in what he was expecting from those on the mat.

When I visited the Jiyushinkan the dojo felt more like a Koryu ‘family' than a Gendai dojo. What I mean by all of this is that some of us may be attributing their own contextual assumptions on how an Aikido dojo should be run compared to how the Jiyushinkan is ran. Mario/James is welcome to do what he wants but there were consequences for his actions. I think if we were to view his behavior in the context of koryu the actions and decisions of his seniors become more logical.

Granted there are a lot of assumptions in this statement that may not correspond to what actually occurred but I feel the comparison is valuable.


Regards,
Stephen Kotev
Chuck Clark has never met me personlly but has that changed anythingf? I guess the dojo I went to before would fall under a prison wouldn't it. That's why I'm glad I'm out of it.

The Koryu comparison isn't very good. Don't people call them Koryu snobs. So if you compare the two couldn't you call the Clark's group Jiyushinkai snobs?

Mario slash James? I still like the names James.
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Old 02-16-2006, 03:54 PM   #158
James Smithe
 
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Stephen Kotev maybe you should reread the thread 3 or 4 times to help you understand it better. I'm pretty sure your question is answered. Ron's comment is hypocritical he says people can't judge but he considers me a me a miscreant who gots what he deserved.
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Old 02-16-2006, 04:56 PM   #159
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Mario Jones wrote:
Stephen Kotev maybe you should reread the thread 3 or 4 times to help you understand it better. I'm pretty sure your question is answered. Ron's comment is hypocritical he says people can't judge but he considers me a me a miscreant who gots what he deserved.
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Stephen. As I said...it is not our place to judge the matter...we are not 'inside the door'. Unless a part of that culture/family/dojo/group, it becomes very difficult to know what is right or wrong in their context. As an outsider, if I saw some exorbitant amount of physical injuries coming out of the dojo, I might be moved to criticize.

Since that is not the case, it's pretty much 'none of my business', especially since the miscreant pretty much got what he asked for. There are some places where there'd be a butt kicking in the mix, as well.

Best,
Ron (not that I'd necessarily agree with that)
James,
Ron said you got what you "asked for" not what you "deserved". Any chance you consider that a fair description?
Regards,
Mark
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Old 02-16-2006, 05:12 PM   #160
Edwin Neal
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Smile Re: Regarding James Smith

if you will refer back in this thread you will find James did not ask for anything, but was very well behaved in class... when pressured with an unfair ultimatum the "undeserved" retribution of the dojo in question seemed to lack any compassion and aiki-ness, but rather a closed rigid hierarchy that demanded absolute obedience or else...

Last edited by Edwin Neal : 02-16-2006 at 05:14 PM.

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-16-2006, 06:07 PM   #161
James Smithe
 
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote:
James,
Ron said you got what you "asked for" not what you "deserved". Any chance you consider that a fair description?
Regards,
Mark
A lot of people are saying I didn't do anything to ask for this and shouldn't have been kicked out. Anyway calling someone a miscreant is passing judgement on them therefore Ron's comment is hypocritical.

Last edited by James Smithe : 02-16-2006 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 02-16-2006, 06:18 PM   #162
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

might as well let it go James... some people seem to believe that they can treat people anyway and just claim its their right to run things as they choose... fairness will only matter when they are the ones being mistreated...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-17-2006, 07:59 AM   #163
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Regarding James Smith

No, my statement is not hypocritical. I said that we can't pass judgement on the dojo, because they are a unit separate from this community. My judgement is for your behavior here. Your comments since coming back are indicative to me (at least) that the dojo made the correct decision. If you came back and said "that dojo and I disagree, and now I will train elsewhere", I couldn't really fault you. No one place is for every one. But you came back and continued to justify your bad behavior, and (relative to that dojo) to continue the bad behavior.

I myself have left dojo in the past. But no where online will you find me bad mouthing them. Or in person either.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 02-17-2006 at 08:02 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 02-17-2006, 08:27 AM   #164
MM
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
might as well let it go James... some people seem to believe that they can treat people anyway and just claim its their right to run things as they choose... fairness will only matter when they are the ones being mistreated...
I guess i would call you on your statement about fairness, then.
1. Do you know the entire events at the dojo from both sides?
2. Do you personally know how the dojo operates?
3. Do you personally know how the Jiyushinkai operates?
4. Do you personally know David Bedard and Chuck Clark and James?
5. Have you been a part of the Jiyushinkai long enough to understand their system/philosophy/attitudes/training/etc?
6. Did you get a complete transaction of everything from all parties involved?

Because if you haven't done at least those things above, you're being unfair in your judgements (no matter whose side you take) because you don't have enough material to make a qualified judgement. If all you have to go by is what was posted on Aikiweb, then you're using a very, very small margin of influence rather than gathering a bigger picture. Is that fair to judge based upon 1% of knowledge of the situation? You've condemned the actions of the Jiyushinkai based upon that, or that's the way it appears. Should I therefore judge you in that way?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 02-17-2006, 08:40 AM   #165
MM
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Stephen Kotev wrote:
The Dojo is not a Democracy.

The worst dojos feel like a prison, the best feel like a family. How many of you have met Chuck Clark personally? Trained at his dojo?
It even goes beyond that, Stephen. Putting this in perspective, has anyone who doesn't know the Jiyushinkai looked them up and done research on them? To at least get a better feel for who they are? I'll give you a hint/example. Take a look at Diane Skoss's background. She has a ranking in Aikido from the Jiyushinkai. Look at what the Jiyushinkai is doing -- they're studying SMR jodo under Relnick sensei. Now, show me James's credentials and his associations. Jiyushinkai associated with great Budo people. James associated with new student. Personally, that would make me lean towards the Jiyushinkai, even if I had no idea of who they are. Doesn't mean I'd come out and say they're right, but given the "facts" that were presented, I'd lean in favor of the Jiyushinkai.

Quote:
Stephen Kotev wrote:
Granted there are a lot of assumptions in this statement that may not correspond to what actually occurred but I feel the comparison is valuable.
Regards,
Stephen Kotev
There were a lot of assumptions made by a lot of people here. The Jiyushinkai representatives made posts about what happened. If that wasn't enough for someone, they should have contacted those representatives and talked to them about it. It would have been the Jiyushinkai's right to say it wasn't any of their business, but maybe one might have gotten some better answers. My view, anyway.

Mark
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Old 02-17-2006, 09:23 AM   #166
Stephen Kotev
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
It even goes beyond that, Stephen. Putting this in perspective, has anyone who doesn't know the Jiyushinkai looked them up and done research on them? To at least get a better feel for who they are? I'll give you a hint/example. Take a look at Diane Skoss's background. She has a ranking in Aikido from the Jiyushinkai. Look at what the Jiyushinkai is doing -- they're studying SMR jodo under Relnick sensei. Now, show me James's credentials and his associations. Jiyushinkai associated with great Budo people. James associated with new student. Personally, that would make me lean towards the Jiyushinkai, even if I had no idea of who they are. Doesn't mean I'd come out and say they're right, but given the "facts" that were presented, I'd lean in favor of the Jiyushinkai.


Mark
Mark,

I think we are saying similar things. When I had the pleasure of visiting the Jiyushinkan, if felt very different from many of the Gendai Aikido dojo I am accustomed to training in. The Jiyushinkan felt like a koryu dojo from my ‘outsider' perspective. (caveat: I do not train in koryu but I do feel that I have had enough exposure to verify my comments)

All I was attempting to do was help refocus some of the expectations and assumptions surrounding this issue. I don't speak for the Jiyushinkai nor would I deem that appropriate on my end. What I did want to do was share my own experience. If we were to accept the supposition that the Jiyushinkai functioned more like a koryu than a Gendai martial art many actions and decisions would change in light of that context. Koryu martial arts have a different set of expectations than Gendai arts about their member's behavior.

As I said before. The whole thing is unfortunate.

I personally have a great deal of respect for Chuck Clark and I find it unfortunate that he was not given that due respect. I have seen what happens to other martial arts bulletin boards when experienced practitioners are derided. They leave!

It's unfortunate what happened to Mario.

I think what has had to be said has been said. I did not see anyone bring up the point that I did related to context so I made it. . .

Personally, I think there is too much salt in the wound. I did not intend for my comments to add fuel to the fire, just to clarify.

Regards,
Stephen Kotev
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Old 02-17-2006, 09:24 AM   #167
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

No one will EVER know the complete 'facts' of the situation even the principles involved will have various biases as we all have... it is clearly impossible to know everything about the situation... yet everyone here is expressing an opinion or making a judgement... the 'facts' presented by the 'dojo' were their own version, and this thread was started by them... so they obviously felt it necessary in some way to lay out their position... my opinion will not change them... i made no judgements of any individuals only expressed my opinion of the facts as presented here and the consistency/inconsistency of these accounts... please everyone feel free to think how you like... be the master of your own mind... as i will be of mine... i refer everyone to post #1 where James behavior "in the dojo" was good... the issue of his persona on aikiweb, and its reflection or assumed reflection on the dojo are the crux of this matter... as Ron rightly states they are a unit seperate from this community... as James is a unit seperate from the dojo... retaliations and accusations across these lines is unfair... i do not represent all americans, so i find it unfair when i am lumped in with "rude americans" although i understand and sympathize with those that hold this belief... if i were discriminated upon based upon this belief i would feel that it was unfair, but that is how the world is run... i feel like aikido is for fixing this problem... not for perpetuating it... two wrongs don't make a right...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-17-2006, 10:35 AM   #168
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Regarding James Smith

I agree with Ron and Mark.

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
as Ron rightly states they are a unit seperate from this community... as James is a unit seperate from the dojo...
This is what I said before in so many words. They have a right to ask him to leave and he has a right to be here (within limits).


Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
i find it unfair when i am lumped in with "rude americans"
No comment.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 02-17-2006, 11:05 AM   #169
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Edwin Neal wrote:
i find it unfair when i am lumped in with "rude americans"


No comment.

__________________
Jorge


like i said i fully understand why some people feel this way about americans...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-17-2006, 12:10 PM   #170
MM
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
No one will EVER know the complete 'facts' of the situation even the principles involved will have various biases as we all have... it is clearly impossible to know everything about the situation...
Nice dodge, but you didn't answer the questions. In other words, did you research into the situation more than just reading Aikiweb? If so, what was it?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
yet everyone here is expressing an opinion or making a judgement...
Yep, even you. and I posted my opinion. IF I had nothing else to go by other than what I could find on the Web, I would have to lean towards the Jiyushinkai (fortunately, I have more than that and I reserve my right not to post my judgement).

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
i made no judgements of any individuals only expressed my opinion
Let me quote you on some things and you decide if you made a judgement or not: "James got a raw deal", "refusing to submit to their ultimatum was the 'factor'", "James did not ask for anything, but was very well behaved in class", and "when pressured with an unfair ultimatum the "undeserved" retribution of the dojo in question".

Whether you intended to come across as making a judgement or not ... I don't know. But I do know that reading through your posts, you do seem to make a very definable judgement for James and against the dojo.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 02-17-2006, 12:38 PM   #171
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

i read the posts by the members of the dojo in question and based upon their account... as James did not give one until after the fact... i 'judged' them based upon the inconsistencies in their 'telling' of the events, and by visiting their websites... call it opinion or judgement as you like the 'facts' seem to suggest that james was well behaved in class, but a little turd here on aikiweb... we, myself included, gave him an earful here for his mouthiness... that should have been it... but somehow he became an official representative of his dojo/organization and was accused of being disrespectful of his dojo/organization... there is still no post that has been presented by YOU MARK or anyone else that shows he said anything bad about his dojo BEFORE he was issued an ultimatum to apologize (for what?) or be kicked out... now let it go... stop turning it on me... he was in my opinion treated badly by folks i would have expected more from... i expected better because i read their websites and philosophy... sounds good, but it seems they do not practice 'Free Mind' or 'Mutual Benefit"... until they began the witchhunt of james i had not given a single thought to his dojo/organization... it was an aikiweb matter... they represented themselves in a worse way than james ever supposedly did... why did it become more than just him making dumb comments on this forum and us flaming him for it? i "suggest" you read the entire thread here if you have not already... or read it again... provide evidence that james disrespected his dojo/organization or posted that he was officially representing the views of the dojo/organization... until you provide that please feel free to call me judgemental, arrogant.etc etc... as this is just what started this thread, and you are doing nothing that the principles involved in this situation haven't already done... this to my way of thinking is neither aiki nor fair... but feel free to do as you please... just remember some folks may take it to represent your dojo/organization... i however do not...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-17-2006, 01:17 PM   #172
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
...but somehow he became an official representative of his dojo/organization and was accused of being disrespectful of his dojo/organization...provide evidence that james disrespected his dojo/organization or posted that he was officially representing the views of the dojo/organization...
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks as to whether he was disrespectful to his organization or not. They decided the parameters by which James and everyone else in that dojo could be there and James didn't fit their bill. They have a right to decide who can be there. You and others may not like it but that's too bad. It's their right. As to what it makes them, the public will decide but James has a lot of work to do before he will make Chuck Clark and the Jiyushinkai look bad. It wasn't two wrongs. It was two rights. They did right by their action and James did right by leaving.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 02-17-2006, 02:47 PM   #173
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

for my part as i stated james never made them look bad... their actions and attitude with regard to the situation gave ME a bad impression of them... i will not speak ill of them, but i am somewhat skeptical... i reserve making any judgements until i would have the pleasure of meeting in person...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-17-2006, 03:53 PM   #174
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Regarding James Smith

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
for my part as i stated James never made them look bad...
They obviously didn't agree with you. For whatever reasons they didn't like James' posts, it may have just been that when he showed who he really was here, they realized he wasn't going to work in their program. Maybe they read the posts and didn't want to be associated with him or his comments in any way, so they exercised their prerogative to send James packing. It was their right.They didn't owe James a spot in the dojo. The proof of that is that they are now 'James free" and James now has a garage for a dojo.
That's a good lesson for a young guy like James to learn. If you are training with people that take their art seriously, then be moderate, temperate, and respectful in public venues so that your dojo won't mind being associated with you.. If James wants to be an Internet comedian, then he needs to find a dojo that is looking to recruit someone like that. He just needs to announce himself when he arrives so they will know who they are getting and he won't have to go through this again.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 02-17-2006, 05:15 PM   #175
Edwin Neal
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Re: Regarding James Smith

some people obviously take themselves far too seriously... humility is a virtue... pride is a sin... aikido is for all people, not for those we deem morally superior or privileged...

Edwin Neal


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