|
|
Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.
If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!
|
05-26-2017, 05:58 PM
|
#1
|
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 398
Offline
|
"Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush
Panel Discussion: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Corky Quakenbush, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Roy Dean, & Miles Kessler. This session is from the "Aikido At The Leading Edge" telesummit, and was recorded on May 17th, 2017:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkYeAncP9Go
Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
05-27-2017, 03:38 AM
|
#2
|
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote:
Thoughts?
|
A complete waste of time.
|
|
|
|
05-27-2017, 01:18 PM
|
#3
|
Dojo: Both Hands Clapping
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 79
Offline
|
Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush
I had a very, very savvy boss who was dubious about any reference book over 1/2" thick. Is it any wonder that TED talks are limited to 20 minutes?
|
Jim Redel BHC Aikido
"The universe, aikido, the mind - both hands clapping!"
|
|
|
05-28-2017, 01:38 AM
|
#4
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
|
Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush
If I take a butter knife from my kitchen drawer and use it to tighten the screws on the kitchen cabinet , is it still a butter knife or now a screw driver?
dps
|
|
|
|
05-28-2017, 04:15 PM
|
#5
|
Dojo: Allegheny Aikido, Pitsburgh PA
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 948
Offline
|
Re:
When the only tool somone knows how to use is a hammer, does that mean that they should conclude that a hand plane is not also a tool?
|
|
|
|
05-29-2017, 07:10 PM
|
#6
|
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,474
Offline
|
Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush
Aikido practitioners should make up their mind on what they want Aikido to be and do. In doing that, from a martial perspective, I think Aikido should not feel pressed to address the dueling discourse that currently dominates our self-defense commercial market. Philosophically, I think Aikidoka should stick to their arena of dealing with assaultive behavior and mentalities because there is a deeper and more useful truth in that than in trying to figure out how to apply Aikido to dueling environments. Even commercially, I think Aikidoka should again stick to this position. There is no way, in my opinion, that Aikido can address the combative assumptions of the dueling culture without either doing so poorly or without degenerating the art into something it is not, or something in the end that is incapable of addressing assaultive behavior and/or combat environments. Today, popular Aikido is primarily populated by two groups: one group that further insulates itself from the larger martial purpose, and one group that feels pressed to identify Aikido with and in terms of the MMA discourse. The first group is slowing losing its numbers, like any group that stays away from others, and the second group is losing their art. I would propose a third option be found and practiced, one that acknowledges that the problem is not that the art is traditional but that we are not traditional enough in our understanding of the art.
|
|
|
|
05-30-2017, 06:55 AM
|
#7
|
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,202
Offline
|
Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush
My thought: I wish I had the free time to waste on this twaddle.
|
|
|
|
05-30-2017, 10:32 AM
|
#8
|
Dojo: Aikido of Park Slope/NY Aikikai
Location: NYC
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 112
Offline
|
Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush
David Valdez makes a very good point
|
|
|
|
05-30-2017, 05:42 PM
|
#9
|
Dojo: Shoheijuku Aikido, Fukuoka
Location: Fukuoka
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 157
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Aikido practitioners should make up their mind on what they want Aikido to be and do. In doing that, from a martial perspective, I think Aikido should not feel pressed to address the dueling discourse that currently dominates our self-defense commercial market. Philosophically, I think Aikidoka should stick to their arena of dealing with assaultive behavior and mentalities because there is a deeper and more useful truth in that than in trying to figure out how to apply Aikido to dueling environments. Even commercially, I think Aikidoka should again stick to this position. There is no way, in my opinion, that Aikido can address the combative assumptions of the dueling culture without either doing so poorly or without degenerating the art into something it is not, or something in the end that is incapable of addressing assaultive behavior and/or combat environments. Today, popular Aikido is primarily populated by two groups: one group that further insulates itself from the larger martial purpose, and one group that feels pressed to identify Aikido with and in terms of the MMA discourse. The first group is slowing losing its numbers, like any group that stays away from others, and the second group is losing their art. I would propose a third option be found and practiced, one that acknowledges that the problem is not that the art is traditional but that we are not traditional enough in our understanding of the art.
|
Good points I reckon. There is a degree of irony in the fact that many people start Aikido with aims towards avoiding conflict, from the fact that there are no competitions as much as the ideal of being able to resolve conflicts peacefully. Yet what Aikido really requires is resolving the conflicts within ourselves, which many people don't want to face, especially in the dojo.
|
|
|
|
05-30-2017, 10:08 PM
|
#10
|
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,474
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
Amos Barnett wrote:
Good points I reckon. There is a degree of irony in the fact that many people start Aikido with aims towards avoiding conflict, from the fact that there are no competitions as much as the ideal of being able to resolve conflicts peacefully. Yet what Aikido really requires is resolving the conflicts within ourselves, which many people don't want to face, especially in the dojo.
|
An excellently point.
|
|
|
|
06-29-2017, 07:24 PM
|
#11
|
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 710
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
Amos Barnett wrote:
Good points I reckon. There is a degree of irony in the fact that many people start Aikido with aims towards avoiding conflict, from the fact that there are no competitions as much as the ideal of being able to resolve conflicts peacefully. Yet what Aikido really requires is resolving the conflicts within ourselves, which many people don't want to face, especially in the dojo.
|
This is why my teacher made it a point to include mirrors as much as he could on the dojo walls. The encouragement being to see your reflection and "cut down all the imperfections you see in yourself"
|
Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
|
|
|
06-30-2017, 03:20 AM
|
#12
|
Location: singapore
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 118
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Aikido practitioners should make up their mind on what they want Aikido to be and do. In doing that, from a martial perspective, I think Aikido should not feel pressed to address the dueling discourse that currently dominates our self-defense commercial market. Philosophically, I think Aikidoka should stick to their arena of dealing with assaultive behavior and mentalities because there is a deeper and more useful truth in that than in trying to figure out how to apply Aikido to dueling environments. Even commercially, I think Aikidoka should again stick to this position. There is no way, in my opinion, that Aikido can address the combative assumptions of the dueling culture without either doing so poorly or without degenerating the art into something it is not, or something in the end that is incapable of addressing assaultive behavior and/or combat environments. Today, popular Aikido is primarily populated by two groups: one group that further insulates itself from the larger martial purpose, and one group that feels pressed to identify Aikido with and in terms of the MMA discourse. The first group is slowing losing its numbers, like any group that stays away from others, and the second group is losing their art. I would propose a third option be found and practiced, one that acknowledges that the problem is not that the art is traditional but that we are not traditional enough in our understanding of the art.
|
You're right. O'sensei did not duel others. He escorted people through battlefields and gunfire, and his students picked fights with Yakuza members and gangs.
You're right, Aikidoka need to make up their mind, about what they want to do. Aikido is a martial art, O'sensei founded it through combat, and all his students developed their skills through combat. In duels and otherwise. Aikido is Aikido, and Aikido is martial. So aikidoka need to ask themselves; are they training in a martial art? Or are they wasting their time?
|
|
|
|
06-30-2017, 06:02 AM
|
#13
|
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
Adam Huss wrote:
This is why my teacher made it a point to include mirrors as much as he could on the dojo walls. The encouragement being to see your reflection and "cut down all the imperfections you see in yourself"
|
my hakama and gi made me looked fat. does that mean i should practice naked to deal with that sort of imperfection?
|
|
|
|
06-30-2017, 06:21 AM
|
#14
|
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
Phi Truong wrote:
my hakama and gi made me looked fat. does that mean i should practice naked to deal with that sort of imperfection?
|
Don't we all?????
|
|
|
|
08-09-2017, 12:19 PM
|
#15
|
Dojo: ASU
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2
Offline
|
Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush
I suppose cliche speculation "My KungFu is better than Your KungFu and My Master can beat Your Master" will always be part of the human condition. It's a silly argument spawned by insecurity. How do you practice lethal force without hurting each other? There have been many methods. Train hard, train soft, spar, duel, practice basics, practice tricks, etc. Regardless, they all come apart in combat. The history of combat is clear. In personal combat, untrained amateurs can still beat seasoned professionals. The greatest swordsman can be downed with a rock. The most well armored knight can be pulled from his horse by peasants. The most elite soldiers of the British Empire were killed by Zulu spears, Indian tulwars, and American tomahawks. An overwhelming number of historical examples prove that even the most skilled soldiers still die on the battlefield. No amount of training protects them.The world's greatest martial artist is still vulnerable to a 2x4 to the head. Aikidoists choose to practice AIKI which allows for martial practice along with other kinds of practice - like ALL other martial arts. Is Tai Chi a martial art? Is Judo? Is Kendo? Is target shooting? Is MMA competition? Is conflict resolution a martial art? They all improve your odds of surviving lethal combat, AND they can all be defeated. Why equivocate?
|
|
|
|
08-11-2017, 07:56 PM
|
#16
|
Dojo: Litchfield Hills Aikikai
Location: Litchfield, CT
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 161
Offline
|
Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush
"is aikido a martial art" is a fairly ignorant question. Of course it is by definition, history, and intent of the founder.
I really think all of this anti-aikido whampering is being fueled by an incredibly sophisticated MMA hype machine. Just remember, that's entertainment, an entirely different animal than efficacy.
|
|
|
|
08-14-2017, 01:57 PM
|
#17
|
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 122
Offline
|
Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush
Of course the discussion goes to a dead end. The reason is that we all have a different understanding of the concept of 'martial arts'. From authors of Wikipedia we are dealing with so general descriptions that is impossible to use them for aikido. For example, is aikido really "martial" in the sense of being used or created by professional warriors? Or just a mental and spiritual development; as well as entertainment and the preservation of a nation's intangible cultural heritage? Simply, I suggest to get a common meaning of this concept before going further.
|
|
|
|
08-14-2017, 03:09 PM
|
#18
|
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 824
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote:
For example, is aikido really "martial" in the sense of being used or created by professional warriors? Or just a mental and spiritual development; as well as entertainment and the preservation of a nation's intangible cultural heritage?
|
Why does it have to be one or the other? Aikido is a training system. It's applicable to varied goals that are determined by the practitioner. Instead of trying to shoehorn Aikido into a single slot why not just accept the fact that it's applicability transcends the classical idea of what a "martial art" is and proceed from there?
Ron
|
|
|
|
08-14-2017, 03:32 PM
|
#19
|
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 122
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
... classical idea of what a "martial art" is ...
|
So, explain it, please. Maybe it will be a good start.
|
|
|
|
08-14-2017, 06:59 PM
|
#20
|
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 824
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote:
So, explain it, please. Maybe it will be a good start.
|
""martial" in the sense of being used or created by professional warriors"
Seems as good a place as any to start.
Ron
|
|
|
|
08-15-2017, 05:31 AM
|
#21
|
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 932
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
... Aikido is a training system. It's applicable to varied goals that are determined by the practitioner. ...
|
This is already a specific definition of Aikido, that is not gernerally accepted.
There are indeed practioners of aikidō who understand it as a certain budō, that is organized by the iemoto - System. Which implies, that it's understanding is not just open to privat opinions and determined by the practioner.
In consequence your opinion of aikidō, i.e. "that it's applicability transcends the classical idea of what a 'martial art' is", simply is not generally applicable. So some People can't proceed from there.
|
|
|
|
08-15-2017, 01:48 PM
|
#22
|
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 824
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote:
There are indeed practioners of aikidō who understand it as a certain budō, that is organized by the iemoto - System. Which implies, that it's understanding is not just open to privat opinions and determined by the practioner.
|
And they're certainly entitled to train in a manner that is, as you say, "organized by the iemoto - System." But Aikido has grown beyond the boundaries of that same system. You may decry that fact but it's truth is demonstrable. One need only look at Tomiki and Tohei to see two evolutionary paths Aikido has taken over the years.
Training goals are objectives that may or may not change over time as the student progresses. Understanding Aikido isn't a matter of opinion, it's a process of discovery experienced by each individual practitioner largely based on personal goals.
Ron
|
|
|
|
08-16-2017, 07:58 AM
|
#23
|
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 122
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
Understanding Aikido isn't a matter of opinion, it's a process of discovery experienced by each individual practitioner largely based on personal goals.
|
I'm not sure you do not go away from the topic, but at least it does not bring me closer to a meaningful answer to the question discussed on YouTube as well here.
|
|
|
|
08-16-2017, 01:16 PM
|
#24
|
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 824
Offline
|
Re:
Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote:
I'm not sure you do not go away from the topic, but at least it does not bring me closer to a meaningful answer to the question discussed on YouTube as well here.
|
Well, I was responding to something Carston posted.
So the original question: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?" can be answered by asking another question, namely, How do you intend to apply the tools that your Aikido training allows you to develop and hone?
Whether or not Aikido can be considered a martial art depends largely on how it's to be employed in daily life. People train in Aikido for many varied reasons and tailor their training to specific goals in line with those reasons. Ueshiba may have founded Aikido with strictly martial applications in mind but I think it's pretty clear that the art has evolved such that martial applicability is but one avenue open to the student.
Ron
|
|
|
|
08-16-2017, 11:08 PM
|
#25
|
Dojo: Both Hands Clapping
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 79
Offline
|
Re: Is Aikido a Martial Art
Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote:
I'm not sure you do not go away from the topic, but at least it does not bring me closer to a meaningful answer to the question discussed on YouTube as well here.
|
Unfortunately, if you're looking for meaning, you will be disappointed. There is no answer, because, as you've already seen, there will never be complete agreement on the exact use of the term. From a non-academic perspective (popular usage), I like to tell my students that ...
"The fact is that most disciplines that are called martial arts are not martial in the literal sense (a combat art) and are not even martial in the TV sense (meditating and kicking ass). Most long-time students of the 'martial arts' have never meditated and have never actually ever hit someone with true intent and, likewise, have never gotten hit with true intent ... nor do they ever want to!
"From my experience, here are the usual popular usages of the term 'martial arts'.
- For those who have never studied, a martial art is what they see on TV or at the movies - meditating for enlightenment and kicking ass.
- For those who have started studying and quickly stopped, a martial art is not what they imagined they'd be.
- For those students who have studied less than a year, a martial art is the belief that you can indeed learn how to kick ass. (The thought of enlightenment is long gone.)
- For those students who have studied more than a couple years, a martial art is a good way to hang out with friends, to get a bit of a workout and to convince yourself that you are learning something useful. (The thoughts of both enlightenment and kicking ass are long gone.)
- Finally, unfortunately, for most instructors, a martial art is one way to eke out a living.
And so, I think a more pertinent question is - "Is Aikido a self-defense?", as we may get some consensus on what it actually means to defend oneself.
Cheers,
Last edited by bothhandsclapping : 08-16-2017 at 11:12 PM.
|
Jim Redel BHC Aikido
"The universe, aikido, the mind - both hands clapping!"
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:06 AM.
|
vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
|
|