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Old 03-29-2011, 07:54 PM   #76
David Orange
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Which claims were those? As I said, I earn my living in the solar industry, and am well aware of both the advantages and the limitations of net metering.
So what's your position in the solar industry? You sound like one of those "anti-smoking advocates" whose paychecks are signed by Marlboro.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Sure, the meter runs backward during the day when the owner isn't home and the sun is shining. Then it runs forward at night, which is when residential energy consumption peaks. Over the course of a year, the owner is in most cases still going to be a net consumer of energy.
"In most cases," you say. But most people on net metering are going to be far lesser consumers than those without it, aren't they? So you're really advocating wasting it all because solar cells don't produce the electric output of a nuclear plant.

Who did you say signs your paychecks?

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 03-29-2011, 08:06 PM   #77
David Orange
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

And talk about your peak oil, projections are that there is only enough uranium for the next 80 years of nuclear power generation. If it's so necessary now, what will society do when it's all been used?

And if we can do without it then, why not now?

Well, because people can make too much profit from it now and the future be damned, by their lights.

Why run these risks (which are extremely high, with disasters very likely) only to be left with nothing after 80 years?

Simply profit at the expense of humanity, is all.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 03-29-2011, 08:18 PM   #78
kewms
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, that's strictly because there has been no subsidy of solar on the scale we've seen for nuclear. If solar had received 10% of the subsidies given to nuclear over the past 50 years, solar would be far more advanced than it is now.

And the only reason this hasn't been done is, again, the fat cats can control the access to nuclear-generated power and they cannot monopolize the sun. So they tell us that solar is impractical and beat that drum so hard that people vote against their own best interests, again and again, and we have a nuclear-dominated world instead of solar-dominated.
Huh? All of the reactors currently operating in the US were begun in 1974 or earlier. The only US reactor currently under construction was begun in 1973.

We don't have a nuclear dominated world, we have a fossil fuel dominated world.

Katherine
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Old 03-29-2011, 08:20 PM   #79
dps
 
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

I am glad I don't live in the paranoid world of David Orange.
dps

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 03-29-2011, 08:47 PM   #81
DonMagee
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Imagine being one of the thousand people who lost their homes (and who knows if any more will if it spreads) because of coal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania or another interesting case http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Straitsville,_Ohio

"New Straitsville was originally founded in 1870 as a coal mining town by the New Straitsville Mining Company. The town grew quickly and by 1880 the population was over 4000 people. The coal mining activity ended in 1884, when a labor dispute at the mine ended with a group of miners sending a burning coal car into the mine, igniting the coal. At one time the heat from the fire was so great that residents could draw hot water directly from wells to brew coffee. The fire in the New Straitsville mine burns to this day."

The fact is all of these accidents are very rare, and we are getting better and better at preventing them and fixing them. Why wasn't there a crazy outcry to ban coal mining after a entire US town was lost? People are scared simply because the media tells them to be. Radiation is dangerous, but no more dangerous than a million other things being done right here in the US.

Yes, the levels of radiation are unsafe, yes it is a good idea to move out of the area until they lower (and they will once they fix this). But this is not a land is lost situation. This is a tragedy and a learning experience.

And even if by some small change the land becomes a uninhabitable waste land, it still wouldn't effect my researched and well thought decision that we should abandon nuclear power anymore then the deep water accident makes me want to abandon all oil drilling or the Centralia accident makes me want to abandon all coal mining. I think their are far worse things to worry about (like hydraulic fracking) and a lot to gain by continuing to research generating power from the atom.

Last edited by DonMagee : 03-29-2011 at 08:51 PM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-29-2011, 08:57 PM   #82
kewms
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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David Orange wrote: View Post
So what's your position in the solar industry? You sound like one of those "anti-smoking advocates" whose paychecks are signed by Marlboro.

"In most cases," you say. But most people on net metering are going to be far lesser consumers than those without it, aren't they? So you're really advocating wasting it all because solar cells don't produce the electric output of a nuclear plant.

Who did you say signs your paychecks?
I'm an analyst and a consultant to several companies in the industry, with whom I've signed non-disclosure agreements. To the best of my knowledge, none of my clients are involved in the nuclear industry in any capacity. A search on my name should turn up most of my public work on the subject.

At no point have I advocated "wasting" solar energy. I've just pointed out that renewables, by themselves, are not currently sufficient to replace fossil fuels in the world's energy supply.

Katherine
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Old 03-29-2011, 09:06 PM   #83
kewms
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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David Orange wrote: View Post
And the only reason this hasn't been done is, again, the fat cats can control the access to nuclear-generated power and they cannot monopolize the sun.
Nonsense. The "fat cats" can certainly control your access to solar electricity. There's an enormous, multi-billion dollar supply chain behind every solar cell on the planet. (And there had better be, for solar to achieve anywhere near the scale you envision.) It's just a slightly different group of fat cats.

Katherine
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Old 03-29-2011, 09:11 PM   #84
Tenyu
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

The problem is no one posting in this thread is even aware of what the real problems are. If any of you were to read Ascent Of Humanity you would quickly change your mind.

Charles Eisentstein has a greater understanding of Aiki and Aikido than anyone posting on this forum.
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Old 03-29-2011, 11:26 PM   #85
dps
 
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'm an analyst and a consultant to several companies in the industry, with whom I've signed non-disclosure agreements. To the best of my knowledge, none of my clients are involved in the nuclear industry in any capacity. A search on my name should turn up most of my public work on the subject.

Katherine
I Googled both Katherine and David Orange;

From http://www.thinfilmmfg.com/admin/about.htm#KDinfo,

"Katherine Derbyshire, the founder of Thin Film Manufacturing, has a BS in materials science and engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and an MS in materials from the University of California, Santa Barbara. She has published research on diamond thin films, high temperature superconductors, and archaeological bronzes.

She has been involved with the semiconductor manufacturing industry since 1994, when she joined Solid State Technology as Senior Technical Editor. She won two American Society of Business Press Editors (ASBPE) awards before departing as Chief Technical Editor in 1998. Next, she joined Semiconductor Online, where she quadrupled traffic and established the site as a leading information provider for the industry. She left Semiconductor Online in 2001 to found Thin Film Manufacturing. "

From UAB Campus Directory http://www.uab.edu/directory/

David Wayne Orange

University department: Biostatistics
University job title: Research Assistant
Physical location of office: Ryals Public Health Bldg

Could not find David Orange on.

Faculty and Staff in Epidemiology UAB
http://www.soph.uab.edu/epi/faculty

or

Faculty and Staff in Biostatistics UAB
http://www.soph.uab.edu/bst/faculty

I did find him here as a research assistant on the research staff of Research Methods and Clinical Trials at UAB

http://www.soph.uab.edu/RMCT/people/staff

dps

Last edited by dps : 03-29-2011 at 11:34 PM.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:41 AM   #86
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The cost is in converting the solar energy to usable energy, installing, operating and maintaining the equipment.

It is not free.
Right! Especially when compared against those straight forward predicable costs, operating a nuclear power plant (at least in the USA) is very attractive. Insurance liability is downright cheap and with all the government loan guarantees demanded on the front end, I mean, really why not OWN a nuclear power plant?

I recommend to anyone living near a nuclear power plant to stop your current life plan and build a nuclear power plant so you can afford to live somewhere where there isn't a nuclear power plant. Those things are dangerous!
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:44 AM   #87
dps
 
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
I mean, really why not OWN a nuclear power plant?

I recommend to anyone living near a nuclear power plant to stop your current life plan and build a nuclear power plant.....
Coming to a neighborhood near you.

From http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...050039,00.html

"Designed by the Los Alamos National Laboratory spin-off Hyperion Power Generation Inc., the nuclear battery — so called because it is cheap, small and easily transportable — is about the size of a refrigerator, compared with a 50-ft.-tall traditional reactor. It produces 25 megawatts of electricity — approximately a fortieth the output of a large atomic power-plant reactor. While not quite compact enough for cars, the battery, known as the Hyperion Power Module, has been designed to power subdivisions or towns with fewer than 20,000 homes, as well as military bases, mining operations, desalination plants and even commercial ships, including cruise liners."

Hyperion Hydride Reactor

http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/product.html



"Each HPM provides 70 MW thermal energy or 25 MW electric energy via steam turbine for seven to ten years. This amount of energy provides electricity for 20,000 average American-style homes or the industrial or infrastructure equivalent. Initial deliveries, slated to begin in the second half of 2013, are being scheduled."

http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.c...uct-purch.html

dps

Last edited by dps : 03-30-2011 at 01:52 AM.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 03-30-2011, 05:53 AM   #88
phitruong
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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David Orange wrote: View Post
And talk about your peak oil, projections are that there is only enough uranium for the next 80 years of nuclear power generation. If it's so necessary now, what will society do when it's all been used?

David
there is a project in France to build the first fusion reactor. the project is sponsored by many nations across the world. my guess is in 20 years, we would start replacing fission power plan with fusion power plan. once fusion power becomes more of a commodity, probably in 40 years, the whole uranium situation won't be.
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Old 03-30-2011, 06:22 AM   #89
DonMagee
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
And talk about your peak oil, projections are that there is only enough uranium for the next 80 years of nuclear power generation. If it's so necessary now, what will society do when it's all been used?

And if we can do without it then, why not now?

Well, because people can make too much profit from it now and the future be damned, by their lights.

Why run these risks (which are extremely high, with disasters very likely) only to be left with nothing after 80 years?

Simply profit at the expense of humanity, is all.

Best wishes.

David
Thorium or some other fuel will be fine. You don't have to use Uranium, it's just the first way they figured it out. In fact newer fuels are much safer with much less waste.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:29 AM   #90
David Orange
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I am glad I don't live in the paranoid world of David Orange.
dps
But you do, silly boy. It's truly unfortunate for me, however, that your type has so much influence in my world. Are you the same David Skaggs who was in the Republican machinery from Ohio?

Talk about paranoid.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:42 AM   #91
David Orange
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Huh? All of the reactors currently operating in the US were begun in 1974 or earlier. The only US reactor currently under construction was begun in 1973.
So you're saying that every reactor in the US is about 40 years old or older.

What happened to the "modern" plants that are so much safer than the design in Fukushima? You're saying they're all as old as Fukushima, it seems. Therefore, they're all outmoded and unreliable.

Our nucelar industry really began in the 1940s and it's been going strong ever since, with massive public funding which could have been better used for other investments in the public good, just like the $700B Bush wasted in Iraq over eight years.

Interesting that one of the first nuclear accidents did occur in Alabama, when the Browns Ferry nuclear plant had to be shut down by a fire threatening the control systems. It was the largest and most advanced nuclear complex in the world. It has a very interesting history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browns_...ar_Power_Plant

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
We don't have a nuclear dominated world, we have a fossil fuel dominated world.
We have both.

But mostly what we have is a world in which the common people are herded like sheep and guided to a view that enriches those who control the oil and nuclear power.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:46 AM   #92
David Orange
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Thorium or some other fuel will be fine. You don't have to use Uranium, it's just the first way they figured it out. In fact newer fuels are much safer with much less waste.
Actually, thorium was first. They didn't use it because they wanted the plutonium by-product for use in weapons.

And if thorium is actually safer, with less waste, why don't they switch to it?

Vested interest. The same people who control the plants control the uranium mining. They make their money off the risks and complexities. It's not in their interest to use a cheaper, more readily available fuel because that would cut their profits from the vast organizations needed to handle uranium. Waste is bad for us but good for them.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:48 AM   #93
David Orange
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
there is a project in France to build the first fusion reactor. the project is sponsored by many nations across the world. my guess is in 20 years, we would start replacing fission power plan with fusion power plan. once fusion power becomes more of a commodity, probably in 40 years, the whole uranium situation won't be.
Well, they could replace the uranium plants now with thorium plants. There's no need for us to live under these ungodly threats just so that car dealerships can be lit like Christmas trees all night long, 365 days a year. But the vested interests want us to live under those threats because their own profit is their only concern and it would cost them a lot of money to make the switch.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:03 AM   #94
RonRagusa
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
there is a project in France to build the first fusion reactor. the project is sponsored by many nations across the world. my guess is in 20 years, we would start replacing fission power plan with fusion power plan. once fusion power becomes more of a commodity, probably in 40 years, the whole uranium situation won't be.
Ahhh... fusion power, the Holy Grail of energy production. Research into the peaceful use of the fusion reaction has been ongoing since 1947 with, to date, no reports of a sustainable chain reaction having ever been attained. From the beginning of this research the promise of unlimited energy produced cheaply and safely from fusion has been always about 20 years away. I dunno, why are we wasting all this money trying to build a fusion reactor on earth when we already have one operating just waiting to be tapped? Did you ever stop to consider that the sun is 93 million miles away for a reason? That bringing it down to earth in the form of a fusion reactor might not be such a good idea? Would you want a 10 million degree oven in your neighborhood?

I wonder if the money invested in fusion research for the past 60 years had been spent on research in renewable energy production whether we would be in the same pickle we find ourselves in today having to rely primarily on fossil fuels and the nuclear boondoggle.

Best,

Ron
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:07 AM   #95
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Hi folks,

Please watch your tone and stay away from personal attacks. Thank you.

-- Jun

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Old 03-30-2011, 10:24 AM   #96
David Orange
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Imagine being one of the thousand people who lost their homes (and who knows if any more will if it spreads) because of coal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania or another interesting case http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Straitsville,_Ohio
There's no question that coal is a nasty business. I was actually a coal miner, myself, for one month in 1975, due to a range of strange circumstances. I saw the industry first hand from inside the mine and I've lived in coal country all my life. I don't like it at all.

However, how many towns thes size of New Straitsville and Centralia could fit inside the nuclear exclusion zone of Chernobyl?

And how long will these coal fires last? 100,000 years? I really doubt it.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
The fact is all of these accidents are very rare, and we are getting better and better at preventing them and fixing them. Why wasn't there a crazy outcry to ban coal mining after a entire US town was lost?
I'm sure there would have been if a region the size of Chernobyl's had been lost.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
People are scared simply because the media tells them to be. Radiation is dangerous, but no more dangerous than a million other things being done right here in the US.
Like what? Nothing compares to the risk of something like Chernobyl.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Yes, the levels of radiation are unsafe, yes it is a good idea to move out of the area until they lower (and they will once they fix this). But this is not a land is lost situation. This is a tragedy and a learning experience.
I might agree if the situation in Fukushima were anywhere near resolution. The fact is, it's still in a very precarious state. If one (or more) of the reactors has actually been breeched, and if that condition goes worse, you'll have to change your tune remarkably. It's way too soon to say what will happen. It's like looking at a burning car and saying, "As soon as the fire goes out, we can drive it again." But the fact is, a burning car has an excellent chance of exploding. A breeched nuclear reactor is not a learning experience and we don't know how big the final nuclear exclusion zone around Fukushima will be or how long it will be maintained. You can't say it's "not a land lost situation" because at the moment and for the foreseeable future, it is a land lost situation. They can't drink the water or the milk or eat the vegetables or even go back to their homes to get pictures of their mothers or children. Really, what you're saying is like a gambler at a roulette wheel saying "I haven't really lost much so far," though he continues gambling and losing steadily. What's that song lyric? You never count your money when you're sitting at the table? It's time for us to realize that we should have "folded" on nuclear power decades ago.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
And even if by some small change the land becomes a uninhabitable waste land, it still wouldn't effect my researched and well thought decision that we should abandon nuclear power anymore then the deep water accident makes me want to abandon all oil drilling or the Centralia accident makes me want to abandon all coal mining. I think their are far worse things to worry about (like hydraulic fracking) and a lot to gain by continuing to research generating power from the atom.
Well, I'd say there's far more than "some small chance," but how many nuclear exclusion zones will be acceptable to you? How big can they be before you realize you're busted? If the reactor really goes all in and Tokyo is engulfed in the exclusion zone, will that change your mind? If the radiation reaches your town? It's already in Alabama, Nevada, South Carolina and therefore, probably all across the US. So far, it's supposedly non hazardous to humans (got a bridge to sell you), but what if seriously dangerous material is released and follows the same distribution patterns?

I agree that hydraulic fracking is a horrible assault on human existence, but remember that the main motivation is the same as that behind nuclear power plants: to make money, regardless of the risks to the people who live in the area and regardless of the long-term damage to the environment. We need to force an end to all these things, but it seems clear that the wholesale gutting of the EPA is designed precisely to prevent any impedence of the profit behemoth.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:38 AM   #97
Keith Larman
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

I'll wade in here a little, but I'll stand back a bit to stay out of range of flailing, random fists....

A company I invested in many years ago when it was called Thorium Power is now called Lightbridge. They are making inroads in a variety of places with thorium technology. Write your legislators and ask why more work isn't being done to change the focus towards technology like thorium. Write Mr. Chu at the Department of Energy.

That's what I did. I even had a moment to talk with my congressman a while back. Talked about it directly.

Back in 2008 there was the 2008 Thorium Energy Independence and Security Act sponsored by Orrin Hatch and Harry Reid. It failed, but it was a good step. More need to be taken.

However, the problem here is the shrill level of debate. Thorium tends to get lumped in to all things nuclear which itself means mushroom clouds, big booms, holes to China, vast devastation, mutant ants and lizards, etc. to many. We cannot move forward until we can have intelligent, focused, fair discussion. Too much knee jerking and a lot of babies are getting tossed with the bathwater...

I wonder how many people die or are horribly disfigured each year in car fires when the gasoline ignites... But no, that's background noise because that has been our world for a long time. Along with the pollution. Along with the accidents. How many people were basically vaporized when the BP rig exploded? How many have died on rigs just drilling? How many die transporting gasoline in tankers?

It all has costs.

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Old 03-30-2011, 10:46 AM   #98
David Orange
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'm an analyst and a consultant to several companies in the industry, with whom I've signed non-disclosure agreements. To the best of my knowledge, none of my clients are involved in the nuclear industry in any capacity. A search on my name should turn up most of my public work on the subject.

At no point have I advocated "wasting" solar energy. I've just pointed out that renewables, by themselves, are not currently sufficient to replace fossil fuels in the world's energy supply.
Well, so much of the argument presupposes that we have to meet all the "demand" for power when a tremendous amount of it is wasted and unnecessary usage. There's an appreciable demand for heroin in the US. Does that mean we should "meet" that demand?

And another factor is the misrepresentation and misuse of renewables, themselves, such as using photovoltaics to run electric space heaters, or the incredibly stupid use of corn for biofuel. We could do a far better job by using industrial hemp for everything from fuesl to oils, to paper and many other products. Hemp was a $20B/year industry in the US that was wiped out overnight about 1930. Reviving that industry would eliminate tremendous waste while supplying many vital products in a quickly-renewing form. It isn't all about photovoltaics. Renewables can meet much more of our needs than the many lobbyists insist.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:48 AM   #99
David Orange
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Nonsense. The "fat cats" can certainly control your access to solar electricity. There's an enormous, multi-billion dollar supply chain behind every solar cell on the planet. (And there had better be, for solar to achieve anywhere near the scale you envision.) It's just a slightly different group of fat cats.
But no one can prevent my using solar heat, solar food production, solar cooling, solar light. A big part of the slander of solar power is that it has to be converted to electricity to be useful. It does not.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 03-30-2011, 10:55 AM   #100
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
How many people were basically vaporized when the BP rig exploded?
11 I believe...someone check my math please...and 11 is already a lot, if you belong to their families or knew them.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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