Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-18-2002, 02:07 AM   #26
Peter Goldsbury
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,240
Japan
Online
Colleen,

A footnote to my last post and an answer to your question.

After I made my last post I happened to discuss the matter with a Japanese colleague named Aoki whose special field is Japanese aesthetics.

According to Aoki-san, Shu - ha - ri is clearly of Chinese origin, but it is not clear to him how the Chinese originally used the concepts. He immmediately cited kenjutsu and 書"ケ しょどう shodoh (calligraphy), especially calligraphy - the writing of Chinese characters - where these concepts came into play. With the rise of Buddhism, there arose a need to read and transcribe Chinese texts and this meant acquiring a knowledge of how to write the characters. We are now talking about Nara and Heian periods here. The systemised sword arts came a little later in late Heian and Muromachi.

But the concepts can be applied to any open-ended learning process which is construed as an Art or Way and which consists in making the substance and form of the art one's own.

As for the question about the intellectual system, I have recently read Marius Jansen's "The Making of Modern Japan". It is long and magisterial, but there are some very good chapters. Basically, Jansen starts with the Togugawa Period and works his way through to the present day. It is broad in scope and suffers somewhat from lack of depth in some parts. But the chapters on intellectual history are good. There is also Masao Maruyama, "Studies in the Intellectual History of Tokugawa Japan", Herbert Ooms' "Tokugawa Ideology: Early Constructs"; and Carol Gluck's "Japans Modern Myths", all serious scholarly works assuming some basic background knowledge of the subject. J. Brownlee's "Japanese Historians and the National Myths" is also very interesting.

If you want precise details of publishers ISBN etc, send me a private e-mail.

PS. to Shihonage. Russian is Colleen's speciality, not mine.

Regards,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 02-18-2002 at 03:25 AM.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2002, 08:14 AM   #27
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
Shihonage...Whoa...it looks funny in the Roman alphabet. And since I have been told I have a Polish accent, this may be difficult on your 'ears': Da, a ya ne gavaroo paruski ochen harasho---m'ne noozhna praktika --- shto 'privet'...ya znioo (really can't think of how to write THAT) 'zdravstveta'...never thought I'd miss Cyrillic keys...

On a more serious note, thanks to you again, Prof Goldsbury...I'll let you know if I have trouble finding them Oh boy, oh boy, a trip to the bookstore...
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2002, 08:20 AM   #28
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
Oh, and Shihonage was just repeating the three phrases I have learned in Japanese (Hello, goodbye, and where's your umbrella, professor (although the J. phrase I learned is is that your umbrella...)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2002, 10:49 AM   #29
Mike Haber
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 34
Offline
Takeda's Age When Ueshiba Trained With Him

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Li


Hmm, 66, IIRC.



Chris,

I believe Takeda was born in either 1859 or 1860 and Ueshiba began training with him in Hokkaido in 1915, so I believe if my math is correct that Takeda would have been 55 or 56.

Sincerely,

Mike Haber
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2002, 03:51 PM   #30
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,306
United_States
Offline
Re: Takeda's Age When Ueshiba Trained With Him

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Haber


Chris,

I believe Takeda was born in either 1859 or 1860 and Ueshiba began training with him in Hokkaido in 1915, so I believe if my math is correct that Takeda would have been 55 or 56.
Actually, that's correct, now that I check it.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2002, 12:11 PM   #31
jimvance
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 199
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Prof. Goldbury
I have read the thread on dynamic tension and I think that Chiba Sensei's explanation in AJ is somewhat different. In particular, he did not envisage SHU has mastery of a particular form, e.g., shihonage. Rather, SHU is mastery of the entire technical repertoire and covers, in my opinion what Saito Sensei understands by hard, soft and ki-no-nagare. All of this should be mastered at the SHU stage, which can last for several years.
Gosh, I haven't been paying attention the last couple of days. There is a lot more going on in these few sentences than is recognized at first glance.
I have a hard time believing SHU is mastery of the entire repertoire, what then would be the motivation to move on to HA and RI? The concept of Kata is what we are really talking about here; there is a deviation between Chiba's view (kata as object) and Saito's view (kata as process). I believe SHU-HA-RI is addressing kata as "process"; how does this sit with Chiba's point of view? (I don't have his article, though I think I read it once about five or six years ago; I remember a photo of Chiba on the cover doing ude osae.) Could you please elaborate on this?
I am actually researching kata within an educational/psychological paradigm and trying to support a hypothesis. My whole take on this thread was that Ueshiba Sensei did not know how to teach kata, and that he was trying to change the Japanese mentality towards kata with Aikido. Speculation, as it is....

Jim Vance
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2002, 12:36 PM   #32
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by ca
Shihonage...Whoa...it looks funny in the Roman alphabet. And since I have been told I have a Polish accent, this may be difficult on your 'ears': Da, a ya ne gavaroo paruski ochen harasho---m'ne noozhna praktika --- shto 'privet'...ya znioo (really can't think of how to write THAT) 'zdravstveta'...never thought I'd miss Cyrillic keys...
That's very good
Pretty close to the way it's supposed to sound.
Technically you CAN write cyrillics in Latin alphabet... to a degree.

3gPABCTByuTE, nPOo|oECCOP, 6b|CTPEE, BAw nOE3g yXoguT... blah blah blah
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2002, 02:00 PM   #33
John Brinsley
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4
Offline
I would suggest to anyone interested in following up on Mr. Goldsbury's excellent summation of Shu Ha Ri as expressed by Chiba sensei to go to www.aikidoonline.com, click on the archives section (upper left, i believe), and select Chiba sensei's essay on the very subject. It integrates his views on Shu Ha Ri with those on Shoshin and kata. It is powerful and considerate, not unlike Chiba sensei himself. And at the end the essay hints at the responsibilities he believe those who practice aikido in the U.S. must shoulder if it is to remain vital.

John Brinsley
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2002, 06:09 PM   #34
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
I wish I could pull up the article, but my computer is refusing right now...but on the question of Shu-Ha-Ri, this is the chord it struck with me when I read Prof Goldsbury's explanation: since shu is the mastery of technical repertoire, then you wouldn't stop there unless that was all you were looking for, to learn your teacher's Aikido and be a technician. But to see the soul inside the form, you take it apart, and recreate it to give it rebirth, and lend the art imortality. I don't paint, but it sounded to me like what you go through to make the transition from adequate copyist to true artist, to be able to create life in one's paintings. Or how one musician can play a composition technically flawlessly, but it lacks the soul another muscian gives it. But I probably am reading it incorrectly, I tend toward the dramatic .

cnacubo, Alekce
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2002, 07:18 PM   #35
John Brinsley
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4
Offline
In addition, those who might want to read a shorter essay on the subject can go to Endo Seishiro Shihan's Saku dojo web site, http://member.nifty.ne.jp/aikido_sakudojo/index.html, click on "Dojo-cho talks" (or some such), and read Endo sensei's views on the subject. For those who read Japanese, you can click over to the Japanese site. Endo sensei's essay is more approachable than Chiba sensei's, if less extensive.



John Brinsley
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2002, 08:27 PM   #36
Peter Goldsbury
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,240
Japan
Online
Quote:
Originally posted by jimvance

Gosh, I haven't been paying attention the last couple of days. There is a lot more going on in these few sentences than is recognized at first glance.
I have a hard time believing SHU is mastery of the entire repertoire, what then would be the motivation to move on to HA and RI? The concept of Kata is what we are really talking about here; there is a deviation between Chiba's view (kata as object) and Saito's view (kata as process). I believe SHU-HA-RI is addressing kata as "process"; how does this sit with Chiba's point of view? (I don't have his article, though I think I read it once about five or six years ago; I remember a photo of Chiba on the cover doing ude osae.) Could you please elaborate on this?
I am actually researching kata within an educational/psychological paradigm and trying to support a hypothesis. My whole take on this thread was that Ueshiba Sensei did not know how to teach kata, and that he was trying to change the Japanese mentality towards kata with Aikido. Speculation, as it is....

Jim Vance
Chiba Sensei's exact words in the Aikido Journal article are:

"In terms of technique, shu is a time for technical mastery in which you pass through the bulk of the art's technical repertoire; ha offers an opportunity to research and apply those techniques; ri is the completion of something that is your own" (p.15).

I do not believe there is a deviation between Chiba Sensei's view of kata and other orthodox thinking on the subject. Nor do I believe he thinks of kata as 'object'. I would think kata is best seen as a vehicle (in Buddhism 'upaya' - expedient means) through which a variety of things are achieved and I think this is why kata plays such a fundamental role in Japanese traditional arts.

Having looked again at the two articles John Brinsley kindly suggested, I would suggest that their focus is a little different. Chiba Sensei's thinking must be seen firmly in the context of a fruitful relationship between the disciple and his/her teacher, which he believes is absolutely fundamental to any training in budo. Thus, SHU HA RI is as much a relationship with one's chosen teacher as a relationship with kata, which is more the focus of Endo Shihan's discussion.

And I myself would have a hard time believing that the Founder did not know how to teach kata, steeped as he was in Daito-ryu and traditional Japanese koryu. I think it might have been a positive decision not to do so, rather than an inability to do so. After all, the Iwama years seem to have resulted in the creation of kata forms for bokken and jo (though I do not think the 13 kata and 31 kata were themselves the creation of the Founder). Chiba Sensei's Aikidoonline article is more detailed than the Aikido Journal interview and demands very close study.

Sincerely,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 02-19-2002 at 08:29 PM.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2002, 01:04 AM   #37
John Brinsley
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4
Offline
I would draw your attention to three paragraphs in the Aikido Online article that illustrate Mr. Goldsbury's succinct observations. The first is about the nature of kata as viewed by Chiba sensei (not as object but as process/becoming) and its dynamic involving teacher and student (the need to observe what is being imparted):


Kata has been translated into English as "Form". However form seems to cover only one part of a larger whole, superficially limiting it to the physical appearance of Kata. While form covers only a physical part of the whole, the visible part of the Kata, there is another element that works within, which is invisible in nature. It is internal energy associated with the flow of consciousness (Ki). There are schools to be found in the old record of Budo, describing Kata as the Law of Energy (or Order of Energy). Kata, therefore, does not limit its meaning merely to its physical appearance. This can be taught and transmitted physically with reasonable effort, as it is visible. However, the internal part requires a totally different perspective and an ability to master it. Since it cannot be seen physically, it cannot be taught but must be sensed and felt.

The second two paragraphs empasizes that The Founder clearly did teach kata, but in a revolutionary (Ri) way:

Although the foundation of Aikido training is based on the repetition of Kata, its approach is much freer and more flexible than in the old schools. It can be said that it is Kata beyond Kata. The reason behind this can be found first of all in the positive fact that Aikido draws a wide diversity of people compared to other Budo disciplines. However, on the negative side, this contributes to a superficial overflow of individualism.
The second reason can be found in the fact that the Founder himself repeatedly transformed and changed his art and in particular its physical presentation. These changes were synonymous with his personal development and age. Without doubt, this is one of the reasons we see the different styles of Kata, or different ways of expressing the essence of the art, among his own followers. These students completed their training under the Founder at different periods of his life.


It is important to realize that kata here is not restricted to its use, for example, in karate or bukiwaza as the pre-ordained sequence of techiniques, with or without a partner, but as the "form" of every technique being displayed by the teacher and absorbed by the student.
Sorry for the long post. I've gotten caught up in re-re-reading Chiba sensei's essay, which is quite demanding.

John Brinsley
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2002, 12:50 PM   #38
jimvance
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 199
Offline
I guess I had to read what Chiba Sensei had to say before making my point, which seems now to look kind of ridiculous. I printed the Aikido Online article and read through it, but I haven't read the Aikido Journal article yet. I will see if it is available anywhere. The website for Endo Sensei was unavailable.
Quote:
Posted by Brian B.
The second two paragraphs empasizes that The Founder clearly did teach kata, but in a revolutionary (Ri) way.

Posted by Peter G.
And I myself would have a hard time believing that the Founder did not know how to teach kata, steeped as he was in Daito-ryu and traditional Japanese koryu. I think it might have been a positive decision not to do so, rather than an inability to do so
This is what I meant about Ueshiba Sensei attempting to break through the Japanese kata mentality. He was some sort of martial genius, who was immensely interested in the Kojiki and folklore. I don't think he was actually "steeped in traditional Japanese koryu" as much as he imagined he could be the next Kobo Daishi or Minamoto Yoshitsune. Perhaps he was infected by the "pioneer spirit" he felt as a young man in Hokkaido, and with the opening of doors to Western ideas at the end of the 19th century, he used his unique insight into Budo as a method to change the Japanese (kata) mentality from the inside. Aikido may just be one of the first "ikusei" movements in post-Tokugawa Japan that tried to change from within the inherent culture, which is different from the fusion of Western ideals and goals inherent within the founding of Kodokan Judo. Needs more discussion though.

Jim Vance
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2002, 03:13 PM   #39
John Brinsley
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4
Offline
Jim,
The link to Endo sensei's site, as I copied it, has a comma at the end which should be removed (sorry bout that). If you do so, you should have no trouble accessing the URL.

John Brinsley
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2002, 09:57 PM   #40
Peter Goldsbury
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,240
Japan
Online
Quote:
Originally posted by jimvance
I guess I had to read what Chiba Sensei had to say before making my point, which seems now to look kind of ridiculous. I printed the Aikido Online article and read through it, but I haven't read the Aikido Journal article yet. I will see if it is available anywhere. The website for Endo Sensei was unavailable.

This is what I meant about Ueshiba Sensei attempting to break through the Japanese kata mentality. He was some sort of martial genius, who was immensely interested in the Kojiki and folklore. I don't think he was actually "steeped in traditional Japanese koryu" as much as he imagined he could be the next Kobo Daishi or Minamoto Yoshitsune. Perhaps he was infected by the "pioneer spirit" he felt as a young man in Hokkaido, and with the opening of doors to Western ideas at the end of the 19th century, he used his unique insight into Budo as a method to change the Japanese (kata) mentality from the inside. Aikido may just be one of the first "ikusei" movements in post-Tokugawa Japan that tried to change from within the inherent culture, which is different from the fusion of Western ideals and goals inherent within the founding of Kodokan Judo. Needs more discussion though.

Jim Vance
But if you say Morihei Ueshiba was a "martial genius", then he would obviously have been "steeped in traditional Japanese koryu". This is all there was at the time.

I think a better example of "ikusei" movements in post-Tokugawa Japan would be Sakamoto Ryoma and his colleagues. Like Ueshiba, Sakamoto found school studies unattractive and turned to the martial arts, actually kenjutsu. He was a very junior samurai and had to get permission to leave his han (Tosa in Kyushu). He went to Tokyo and joined one of the famous sword schools. This would have been pure kata training. Sakamoto joined a group which wanted to expel the foreigners and planned to assassinate Katsu Kaishu, who was a leading Bakufu official. Katsu knew his intention and insisted on a discussion before Sakamoto drew his sword. Sakamoto became his disciple and went on to play a central role in the collapse of the Tokugawa Bakufu.

Actually, Katsu Kaishu is mentioned by Kenji Tomiki Sensei in the interview recorded in Stanley Pranin's "Modern Masters". Tomiki Sensei is discussing the place of the martial arts in bringing about change in Japan. Tomiki Sensei gives the "Bakufu" view, contained in books like Conrad Totman's "The Collapse of the Tokugawa Bakufu", but there is another view: the "han" view, which gives greater prominence to 'hotheads' like Sakamoto Ryoma.

Now Ueshiba was born in 1883, some 16 years after Sakamoto was assassinated. Things had calmed down considerably by that time. I understand that Ueshiba's father had a dojo built on his property and hired in a ken-jutsu teacher to instruct him. Dissatisfied, he went off to Tokyo and, again studied bu-jutsu. He went to Kokkaido as part of a group and encountered Takeda Sokaku. Takeda did not have a dojo and travelled around, teaching kata, for which students had to pay a fee. Ueshiba clearly accepted this and became a deshi in the truest sense.

Now, things become interesting. He was, as youy say, steeped in the legends recorded in the Kojiki and in esoteric Shingon Buddhism, for Koyasan / Kumano, near his birthplace in the Kii peninsula was a centre of this. And at some point he met Onisaburo Deguchi, of Omoto-kyo. Deguchi had an electrifying effect on Ueshiba's 'spirituality', for want of a better word, and it would be a very interesting question to ask to what extent Ueshiba's gradual separation from Takeda, and from Daito-ryu, is related to the influence of Deguchi. By the time of the 2nd Omoto Incident in 1935, he had more or less evolved his own Aiki-budo, as can be sen from "Budo Renshu" and "Budo".

Finally, Ueshiba is alleged to have studied a very large number of martial arts, and these were traditional koryu like kashima shinto-ryu, which would have been taught as kata. I say "alleged" and "studied" because it is not really clear if he actually joined all the ryuha whose arts he studied. Thus, I think his preoccupation with weapons in Iwama from 1942 onwards, is a work of research into 理合い riai, the rationale of weapons and taijutsu. But I think it was actually being steeped in koryu that enabled him to break free and create something of his own: a classic case of SHU - HA - RI.

Sorry for the long post. Must stop giving lectures...

Yours sincerely,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2002, 11:41 AM   #41
jimvance
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 199
Offline
About giving those lectures, Peter...please continue. This was one reason I find Aikiweb such a wonderful resource.
I guess I just don't like the word "steeped"; although Ueshiba Sensei looked into a lot of different schools, (unless I am mistaken) he did not ever receive a license above kyoju dairi. Martial genius may have come from ability and meditative insight (which is what I really respect him for) as much as from contact with other ryuha.
I think this insight is what allowed him to have this spirit of "ikusei" and offer Aikido initially to all comers, and after the war, to the entire world. At first though, I think he was trying to change the Japanese spirit; after he absorbed the madness of a world at war, he adopted a more universal approach. If anything, Onisaburo Deguchi would have encouraged this "paradigm shift" Ueshiba was trying to effect within Japan. Maybe this is why they went to Manchuria, to be more in control of the environment, and experiment with their "radical" ideas. So the SHU-HA-RI of Morihei Ueshiba was more sociological than educational, i.e. his focus encompassed the social and mental boundaries of the time, rather than those established by a particular teacher or school.

Jim Vance
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2002, 11:56 AM   #42
jimvance
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 199
Offline
I was going to say the info on Ryoma is great, as I have heard many interesting things about him. The Kaishu-Ryoma-Tomiki connection is fortuitous, and I would have had no clue if you would not have brought it to our attention. (Just more for me to read!)

Jim Vance
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2002, 12:55 PM   #43
henry brown
 
henry brown's Avatar
Dojo: Soseikan, Worth IL
Location: Chicago suburbs
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 46
Offline
shu hu ri

Shu Ha Ri sounds a lot like hegel's dialectic materialism (thesis - anithesis - synthesis)
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO Khaled General 155 12-16-2013 09:24 AM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 05:52 AM
Philippine ranking and other stories aries admin General 27 06-27-2006 05:27 AM
Propostarganiza鈬o do Aikido em Portugal kimusubi0 French 0 05-01-2004 03:30 AM
Two things. Veers General 8 04-04-2003 02:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:26 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate