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Old 11-17-2005, 11:35 AM   #26
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

What about tenshin?

Robert Cronin
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Old 11-17-2005, 04:22 PM   #27
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

I was taught that tenkan = opening and irimi = closing (in). What I subsequently discovered is that "opening" and "closing" have several levels of meaning, least of which is physical.

My $0.02

Ignatius
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Old 11-17-2005, 08:55 PM   #28
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote:
However, Rupert touched on my main point when he commented that tenkan is the response when irrimi is not possible.
This is of course against idea of M.Ueshiba aikido. He stated in many places, that tori controls uke even before attack is physically realized, so it can’t be a question if irmi is possible or not. You want to use a tenkan to hide your errors? Better practice until you will not be forced to do it, and will be free to choose whatever you want.

In reality, tori simply choose omote or ura to better protect an attacker.

Nagababa

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Old 11-17-2005, 09:51 PM   #29
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
This is of course against idea of M.Ueshiba aikido. He stated in many places, that tori controls uke even before attack is physically realized, so it can't be a question if irmi is possible or not. You want to use a tenkan to hide your errors? Better practice until you will not be forced to do it, and will be free to choose whatever you want.

In reality, tori simply choose omote or ura to better protect an attacker.
Well pointed out. But we all have our errors and they all need 'hiding' until we are good enough to overcome our limitiations; until that magical one-technique appears, I need something to fall back on.

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Old 11-18-2005, 10:13 PM   #30
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
Well pointed out. But we all have our errors and they all need 'hiding' until we are good enough to overcome our limitiations; until that magical one-technique appears, I need something to fall back on.
But it is not the reason to structure ALL aikido techniques this way. There are very many ways to adjust our not-yet perfect technique, by changing distance, direction, timing ...etc....WITHOUT changing general form of technique.
I don't believe at all that ura version is to recover form wrong omote version. There must be more serious reason for that.

In the other hand, in aikido you have only one chance that is base for our training. All methodology of training is oriented in the way to develop a certain state of mind, where is not place for failure. First technique must be right one. It is quite different from Chinese MA where is assumption that first and every next technique can fail, so they do always chaining of techniques.

Nagababa

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Old 11-19-2005, 09:47 AM   #31
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
For some time, a good few years, I have concentrated much more on irimi than tenkan. I am of the opinion that the standard Aikikai training paradigm of - two irimi and two tenkan techniques - does not help us learn Aikido, and does not prepare us to apply it on an uncooperative partner. It is good for beginning kyu grades to get an understanding of the differences but beyond that, I think it is a big mistake to practise with such a training method. I think that once the distinctions are understood, training should focus on irimi -- the active - how to enter, and that tenkan -- the passive - is what happens, or what we allow to happen when irimi is thwarted. But even so, a massive tenkan is not sensible -- fun, but not sensible; instead, a short tenkan movement suffices to allow another attempt at irimi.

Comments?
Ruppy,

In the Yoshinkan teaching system, there are two version for every techniques, ich and ni version. Ichi is always the irimi version and ni is the tenkan version. I was told that the irimi version represent the situation when you are being pulled in; and the tenkan version is when you are pushed. IMO, rather pragmatic way of teaching, do you not agree?

I am in the opinion, we cannot have a preferance of one over the other, as whether you do irimi or tenkan version of a technique really depends on whether the uke is charging at you as in shomen uchi or grabbing you to strike as in katate mochi shomen tsuki, meaning situation based.

However, I do agree that certain technique has an easier irimi version compared with its tenkan counterpart. Kotegashi comes into my mind instantly. I personally find that the tenkan version of kotegashi is always easier to execute than its irimi version.

Boon.

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Old 11-19-2005, 10:59 AM   #32
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
This is of course against idea of M.Ueshiba aikido. He stated in many places, that tori controls uke even before attack is physically realized, so it can't be a question if irmi is possible or not. You want to use a tenkan to hide your errors? Better practice until you will not be forced to do it, and will be free to choose whatever you want.

In reality, tori simply choose omote or ura to better protect an attacker.
This is absolutely right. The idea that you do tenkan when irimi is not possible is simply not the case. Irimi is contained in every tenkan. It is impossible to do a tenkan against a committed attack without first performing irimi. If you are going to execute a tenkan movement, the turn doesn't even start until you are at the precise point at which you could have chosen to strike the opponent (irimi).

Actually, the irimi starts, as Szczepan points out, even before the physical attack manifests. The initial irimi is with the Mind; it's how you place your intention "inside" the opponent's ma-ai. Before you ever receive the physical attack you have alrteady moved the opponent's Mind with your attention. This is "aiki".

Those who have seen Ushiro Sensei at the Expos or at Rocky Mountain Summer camp last year will have seen this in action. Once I knew what to look for I realized that Saotome Sensei had always been doing this as well but hadn't ever explained it. Ushiro Sensei had a very well developed way of showing this.

The former Doshu in one of his books, I don't remeber which one, stated that Irimi contained the martial essence of Aikido while tenkan contained the spiritual essence. I think that it is revealing, and certainly a point to be thought on, that if this is true the essence of the spiritual contains the martial. I think this is a point that is often missed by many students of Aikido.

As far when one chooses one movement over another... This largely has to do with positioning. It is important to remind oneself periodically that this art is really designed for dealing with multiple attackers. The movement one chooses, first and foremost, must position you to advantage relative to the other attackers.

Also, to some extent it depends on what is most efficient. When two hundred pound attacker launches an over committed attack against a one hundred pound defender, it is clearly more efficient to get completely out of the way and let him throw himself. But I will say again, this can only be done properly if one has already entered, first with the mind and then with the body. An attempt to use the tenkan to "escape" from the attack would be a form of Yin energy which would serve to draw the attack right to you.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 11-19-2005, 06:41 PM   #33
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
This is absolutely right. The idea that you do tenkan when irimi is not possible is simply not the case. Irimi is contained in every tenkan. It is impossible to do a tenkan against a committed attack without first performing irimi. If you are going to execute a tenkan movement, the turn doesn't even start until you are at the precise point at which you could have chosen to strike the opponent (irimi).

Actually, the irimi starts, as Szczepan points out, even before the physical attack manifests. The initial irimi is with the Mind; it's how you place your intention "inside" the opponent's ma-ai. Before you ever receive the physical attack you have alrteady moved the opponent's Mind with your attention. This is "aiki".

Also, to some extent it depends on what is most efficient. When two hundred pound attacker launches an over committed attack against a one hundred pound defender, it is clearly more efficient to get completely out of the way and let him throw himself. But I will say again, this can only be done properly if one has already entered, first with the mind and then with the body. An attempt to use the tenkan to "escape" from the attack would be a form of Yin energy which would serve to draw the attack right to you.
I agree, and think we are talking about the same thing. I said - irimi before tenkan, as you also do. In the last case above, the result is the same, of course. But my point is that we need to train that irimi more. Most tenkan I see is simply avoidance, running away, after which uke can simply renew the attack. Once the irimi is there, you have them, literally. They are inseparable, of course, but I think we need more work on irimi to make our Aikido good. And, if you think about it, why do we do two completely irimi and two completely tenkan techniques? If you train like that, and we do, it can be a barrier to acquiring the aiki we seek - there could be a better way.

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Old 11-19-2005, 06:45 PM   #34
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Ruppy,

In the Yoshinkan teaching system, there are two version for every techniques, ich and ni version. Ichi is always the irimi version and ni is the tenkan version. I was told that the irimi version represent the situation when you are being pulled in; and the tenkan version is when you are pushed. IMO, rather pragmatic way of teaching, do you not agree?

Boon.
I did Yoshinkan for awhile and learned the same thing. It is good to have a clear outline of what and why we are doing things but also, at some point, we need to move on.

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Old 11-19-2005, 07:46 PM   #35
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
I agree, and think we are talking about the same thing. I said - irimi before tenkan, as you also do. In the last case above, the result is the same, of course. But my point is that we need to train that irimi more. Most tenkan I see is simply avoidance, running away, after which uke can simply renew the attack. Once the irimi is there, you have them, literally. They are inseparable, of course, but I think we need more work on irimi to make our Aikido good. And, if you think about it, why do we do two completely irimi and two completely tenkan techniques? If you train like that, and we do, it can be a barrier to acquiring the aiki we seek - there could be a better way.
Methinks the focus on the physical technique presents more of a barrier to attaining "aiki". Irimi is like acknowledging someone from a distance, then stepping up to greet them and to shake their hand. Tenkan is like putting your arm around their shoulder and turning to face the same direction they are facing.

It can't get more aiki than that...surely?

Ignatius
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Old 11-20-2005, 01:17 PM   #36
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
Most tenkan I see is simply avoidance, running away, after which uke can simply renew the attack.
But wouldn't this qualify as being wrong, or being a wrong tenkan - not being tenkan? I would say so.

Still, though I have in most cases been led to practice the 2 omote/2 ura thing (which sometimes has us doing two Irimi and two Tenkan), now in our own dojo I'm more free with this tradition. Most times, as I had written before, I use the 2/2 model to look more into each irimi and tenkan - to see each one in the other. However, at least several times a week (but often way more), we go ahead and do just the omote or just the ura - because we want to "look" at a particular aspect of one thing (such as maybe the irimi aspect or the tenkan aspect of a given tactical architecture).

Nevertheless, this doesn't mean that I would ever preference Irimi over Tenkan, or even yang energy over yin energy.

David M. Valadez
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Old 11-20-2005, 02:41 PM   #37
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Just curious, but where does the irimi / tenkan training regimen come from? O Sensei, I guess. Or was it his son who 'sorted' it out? Do they do this in Daito-ryu?

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Old 11-20-2005, 03:28 PM   #38
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Yes - that is a very good question. I actually haven't seen it - now that you mention it - being practiced in any of the old movies. I've seen them do one technique over and over again either with a single partner or with everyone in a line doing them. Perhaps the 2/2 tradition always existed but perhaps there is a history to its dominance over other types of training models. Nice question.

dmv

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Old 11-20-2005, 04:17 PM   #39
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

From the foreword of Best Aikido 2 by the 3rd Doshu:
Quote:
Aikido techniques are based on the fundamental movements of entering (irimi) and turning (tenkan) together with the application of breath power and timing methods (kokyu-ho) in response to a variety of attacks;...
And...

Quote:
...the second Doshu Kisshomaru thought it appropriate to compile a textbook to establish guidelines for the proper practice of the art. That first textbook was titled Best Aikido: The Fundamentals.... In that textbook, the principles of entering, turning, breath power, and timing were elucidated,...
William Gleason in The Spiritual Foundations of Aikido, says:
Quote:
Tenkan is always combined with irimi as one principle....Irimi is made possible by tenkan. But this does not happen by trying to avoid or get around your partner.
As George mentioned previously, irimi-tenkan has largely to do with positional advantage. The concept of entering and turning (or pivoting) is not peculiar to Aikido. I've seen it in various forms of karate as well, and one style in particular, does a very similar sort of step/turn, albeit with shorter footwork.

Ignatius
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Old 11-20-2005, 04:44 PM   #40
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Interesting discussion ... I think it's pretty simple. irimi = entering and tenkan = turning

You can do either one, or both together, or in succession. You can do either by going forward or backward. You can do either with a suikomi (suction) effect on uke or oshidashi (push or force going away from you) effect on uke. Whatever you do is determined by the necessity of the instant. The nature of my waza seems to always include irimi, no matter what the direction, or whether a tenkan element is necessary at some point or not.

Best regards and Safe and Peaceful Holidays to all,

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Old 11-20-2005, 06:25 PM   #41
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Taleb Sensei frequently reminds us that "the sword is an offensive weapon." He says this in context of emphasizing the irimi quality of the movements derived from the sword. Our weight is always forward to remind us that we enter, irimi, and also remain forward, irimi, in kaiten and tenkan. Another choice quote is, "the first and last decision an uke has is to attack." We practice to first and final cut in every technique. If I set uke up with tenkan because I want his body between me and the second attacker as I cut kiri kaeshi or throw kaiten nage ura then there is a practical budo choice. I simply don't believe any technique exists in isolation from the combat except as a practice exercise. If the plate glass window is behind me then I tenkan or irimi based upon the content of my character and where I want my partner to fall.
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Old 11-20-2005, 11:54 PM   #42
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

With out Irimi (omote) and Tenkan (ura), you wouldn't be able to do Aikido. In Aikido you seek to blend with your partner, to fill in the gaps between you and him. If he retracts, is weak, or pulls, you must enter that space. If he push's, attacks or drives you back you must use turn and move around the force. With out both you would only have force against force, which is far from the ideal most of us hold of the martial arts. Being only Irimi (omote) is all good and well as long as you are more powerful, and always lead the dance, but if the tables turn ura is a necessity.

-Chris Hein
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Old 11-21-2005, 12:11 AM   #43
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
With out Irimi (omote) and Tenkan (ura), you wouldn't be able to do Aikido. In Aikido you seek to blend with your partner, to fill in the gaps between you and him. If he retracts, is weak, or pulls, you must enter that space. If he push's, attacks or drives you back you must use turn and move around the force. With out both you would only have force against force, which is far from the ideal most of us hold of the martial arts. Being only Irimi (omote) is all good and well as long as you are more powerful, and always lead the dance, but if the tables turn ura is a necessity.

-Chris Hein
Amen, Chris. Irimi and Tenkan are used depending on the situation. It is rather the situation which dictates the strategy and not the other way around. Otherwise it is like putting the cart before the horse.

Boon.

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Old 11-30-2005, 09:16 AM   #44
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

I'm not sure if Chris Heim and Xu Wenfung are responding to my post specifically or the weighing in on the general question. Either way I am a little confused. We have all heard "When push yield, when pulled enter." This seems one philosophical pillar of Aikido movement. We also have, "Move off line," drilled into us daily. It appears that we can do honor each of those truisms with either kaiten or tenkan since the latter is a continuation of the former. (We kaiten then step back for tenkan.) Similarly we can yield and enter (advance retreat) or yield and kaiten (as in so kokyu throws) etc. Perhaps this is a question better put to my Sensei but I simply don't see a fundamental difference in each of the movements. Kaiten, tenkan, omote, irimi all seem to blend together like water in the movements of O'Sensei and various Shihan because there are infinite various of blend, unbalance, capture the mind and throw in every ki contact. Happo no kuzushi (breaking balance in a continuing motion) and hando no kuzushi (starting in one direction then reversing) are very similar sounding for a reason, I suspect. My confusion is that I honestly cannot tell if Chris, Xu and I are saying the exact same thing or whether we are presenting different interpretations of Aikido movement.
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Old 11-30-2005, 10:24 AM   #45
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

I believe like Mr. Ledyard and Mr. Shockley stated that tenkan and irimi is dictated by the other multiple attacker. Tenkan can be to correct a mistake {late in doing irimi}, but primerly I do either one depending on how and where I want to place uke in between me and his buddy.
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Old 11-30-2005, 10:35 AM   #46
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Sorry for the late reply,

My comments about irrimi and tenkan are centered around the concept of irrimi-tenkan; that is, irrimi as initial movement. This may make my earlier post a little more clear...
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Old 12-03-2005, 07:03 AM   #47
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Re: Irimi vs Tenkan

Thanks for clarifying the concepts. I agree completely with both Jon and Mike and look forward to training with you at some seminar. I'm always easy to spot since I'm always the tallest person in the room.
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