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02-06-2015, 10:15 AM
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#51
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Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 463
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote:
That's normal behaviour.
But if you think you could be the one who is always controlling the situation, in the role as uke as well as in the role of tori, I think you are wrong. Is' theory.
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Agreed. In the end aite will loose his balance and take ukemi. That would indicate thattori did the technique correct. Aite should however never give his balance for sake of tori, like is suggested by Tissier.
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In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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02-09-2015, 12:45 PM
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#52
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Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
We can clearly see he is not breaking uke balance before a throw. I was his uke few times for shihonage, so I could feel it very well. Instead, he introduced a ‘code' -- the way how uke must behave, so nage can practice his technique. That is his teaching. So in reality uke is jumping in the air by himself for fun and not because nage is creating correct conditions to do it.
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Wow, I completely agree with you. I don't think that has ever happened before.
My beef with every video I have ever seen of him is exactly this, that there is no kuzushi. Uke is completely free to move right up until he cranks them over and they take a beautiful intentional hard fall. I fail to see the point, at that level it's just acrobatics.
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02-09-2015, 01:14 PM
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#53
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Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote:
That's normal behaviour.
But if you think you could be the one who is always controlling the situation, in the role as uke as well as in the role of tori, I think you are wrong. Is' theory.
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No, is not theory, is aiki.
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02-09-2015, 03:15 PM
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#54
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Dojo: Chishin Dojo
Location: Coventry
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 200
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
This thread is pretty interesting, for a few reasons.
I've taken ukemi for Tissier and he's powerful, he almost broke my wrist on a kotegaeshi, it hurt for a long time... He gave me no quarter and I obviously wasn't one of his students - he muscled through and I was going where he wanted me to go and nothing was going to change that. He did apologise for the noise my wrist made .
And the other reason is Joe here. I've seen and had many a lesson from you on the mat. Subtle is not something I'd ever use to describe you . I'm surprised to hear you think this is dangerous particularly due to your lineage. Nice to hear though .
You were a legend on the BAB courses, so many issues and complaints. Lol.
Please don't be offended, I'm sure you won't be.
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02-09-2015, 04:55 PM
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#55
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Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
John Burn wrote:
This thread is pretty interesting, for a few reasons.
I've taken ukemi for Tissier and he's powerful, he almost broke my wrist on a kotegaeshi, it hurt for a long time... He gave me no quarter and I obviously wasn't one of his students - he muscled through and I was going where he wanted me to go and nothing was going to change that. He did apologise for the noise my wrist made .
And the other reason is Joe here. I've seen and had many a lesson from you on the mat. Subtle is not something I'd ever use to describe you . I'm surprised to hear you think this is dangerous particularly due to your lineage. Nice to hear though .
You were a legend on the BAB courses, so many issues and complaints. Lol.
Please don't be offended, I'm sure you won't be.
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Dear John,
As you say I was never in my early days considered to be subtle or had delicate applications of waza.I guess I was a bit competitive from years of judo. I did not mind being challenged on the tatami. However perhaps I had conversion on the road to Damascus.I realised that you did not have to be Mike Tyson to get the job done.Of course I am much older[76] so I do not operate in the manner of a30/40 year old aikidoka. The other reason is the aging process.Injuries which clear up fast when your young take ages to heal when you get a bit older.So again I consider tis when I train with other people.
I consider my earlier aikido to be an important part of my journey.Now I am on perhaps my final journey.
As far as the B.A b stuff is concerned its all water under the bridge. No big deal.
I rarely take offence, so no offence taken.All the best , Joe.
ps.I bet you muttered a few choice words under your breath when Tissier cranked your wrist.
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02-09-2015, 05:24 PM
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#56
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Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 197
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Joe Curran wrote:
Dear Carsten,
Saito Sensei is powerful , but safe .No extreme elbow lock as far as I am concerned.Cheers, Joe
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Safer? I see Saito cranking it way harder and dangerously than Tissier. Saito's "furi kaburi" is like 30 cm from his head (he must be accounting for a big helmet), he starts cutting toward uke's rear then as the uke starts to fall he changes the direction of his cut - through uke's elbow - down to waist level all while keeping a moving base. Tissier's hands barely raise above the head, then cuts and leans in a way that looks more like supporting his uke's breakfall, cutting straight, and his student knows how to receive it by keeping head/hand/elbow/shoulder as close as possible.
As far a kuzushi-on-touch created pre-crank move: I don't see any in either teacher's case.
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02-10-2015, 05:22 PM
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#57
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Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote:
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Hi Markus,
I watched Kondo Sensei do Shiho Nage. I looked closely at his Uke. Might be wrong here but I think uke was not too happy about the pressure applied by Kondo Sensei on his partners elbow joint. Check the expression on Ukes face. Hardly a facial expression of joy methinks. Then of course Kondo Sensei blitzes Uke downing him with a head over heels ukemi. Gee, must be really good to reach such a high level of expertise, Cheers, Joe.
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02-12-2015, 12:53 AM
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#58
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Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 359
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote:
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As far a kuzushi-on-touch created pre-crank move: I don't see any in either teacher's case.
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Could you link some clips of aikido teachers doing this kuzushi?
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02-12-2015, 05:45 AM
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#59
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Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,276
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Joe Curran wrote:
Hi Markus,
I watched Kondo Sensei do Shiho Nage. I looked closely at his Uke. Might be wrong here but I think uke was not too happy about the pressure applied by Kondo Sensei on his partners elbow joint. Check the expression on Ukes face. Hardly a facial expression of joy methinks. Then of course Kondo Sensei blitzes Uke downing him with a head over heels ukemi. Gee, must be really good to reach such a high level of expertise, Cheers, Joe.
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It is actually both the shoulder and elbow that Kondo Sensei locks up and stresses. The throw is meant to hurt/damage/destroy those joints. In kata, nage loosens the grip on uke's wrist so they can fall safely.
But the main point of this kata is making Aiki happen on contact, the rest of it doesn't work if you don't have that....you wind up with an Aikido shihonage.
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02-12-2015, 06:07 AM
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#60
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Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,276
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
In reference to how Tissier seems to set up collusion on the part of uke, in this video he is talking about it and it may seem that this is entirely the result of verbal instruction, a by the numbers choreography.
In the ASU - at least at Shobukan - we try to make uke "feel" like giving us their balance and taking a fall for us. There are many more wrong/unconvincing ways to do this than right. And an uncooperative uke can shut down anything of this nature (but sometimes you really are surprised). This is for both sides' training. If uke tries to shut down every technique they are just learning to be stiff. And learning to not be stiff but to not move unless you get the right feel is actually very difficult.
I think this is basically how Tissier tries to make training happen on his mat, and I think it is one of the paradigms Aikido is really good for.
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02-12-2015, 12:56 PM
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#62
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Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
Just about anything by Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei.
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i was going to mention this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB6FJ-Via9U
half way through the video he discussed about shihonage
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02-12-2015, 01:51 PM
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#63
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Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 359
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
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Thanks for that Chris.
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02-12-2015, 03:55 PM
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#64
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Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 197
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote:
Could you link some clips of aikido teachers doing this kuzushi?
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H. Ikeda, as others have pointed out, is a good example. N. Tamura also comes to mind; from what I've seen he also seemed to try to work balance breaking outside waza. I tried but could not find a video of Shioda that was not his uke smashing routine.
It's hard to find good aikido videos. There's often a cult-like behavior surrounding famous shihan so their uke tend to be over conditioned and it's difficult to discern what's real and not. I wish they all just did simple push/grab tests in a neutral setting, without trained uke, so it would be easier to see who can do what.
Anyway, I recently saw this video featuring S. Yamaguchi, which is worth a look for how he unbalances his uke upon first touch (and waza seems like a by-product of that), and the things he talks about are quite relevant to that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0CkjGyykm4
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02-12-2015, 05:17 PM
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#65
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,318
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
IIRC, Tissier Sensei studied with Yamaguchi Sensei, as did quite a few other notable teachers.
Katherine
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02-13-2015, 03:43 AM
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#66
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Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 401
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote:
I tried but could not find a video of Shioda that was not his uke smashing routine.
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As a public service, here is an excellent non-uke-smashing video clip of Shioda Sensei (actually they aren't too hard to find, Geraldo!)
Alex
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02-13-2015, 09:50 AM
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#67
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Location: Ohio
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 82
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
IIRC, Tissier Sensei studied with Yamaguchi Sensei, as did quite a few other notable teachers.
Katherine
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However most of those teachers took Yamaguchi's classes at Hombu dojo and/or attended seminars he held. They did not train at his private dojo. This is an important distinction when people claim lineage from him.
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02-13-2015, 10:00 AM
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#68
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Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 932
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Joshua Landin wrote:
This is an important distinction when people claim lineage from him.
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Yes, indeed. It is.
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02-13-2015, 12:25 PM
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#69
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Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 359
Offline
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014
Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote:
H. Ikeda, as others have pointed out, is a good example. N. Tamura also comes to mind; from what I've seen he also seemed to try to work balance breaking outside waza. I tried but could not find a video of Shioda that was not his uke smashing routine.
It's hard to find good aikido videos. There's often a cult-like behavior surrounding famous shihan so their uke tend to be over conditioned and it's difficult to discern what's real and not. I wish they all just did simple push/grab tests in a neutral setting, without trained uke, so it would be easier to see who can do what.
Anyway, I recently saw this video featuring S. Yamaguchi, which is worth a look for how he unbalances his uke upon first touch (and waza seems like a by-product of that), and the things he talks about are quite relevant to that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0CkjGyykm4
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Thanks for that. The subtitles are enlightening. And it's a good point. It can be very hard to tell when kuzushi has been applied and by whom.
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