|
|
Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.
If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!
|
07-25-2011, 12:20 PM
|
#26
|
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Search for DR aiki, or Harden, or Sigman, or Center, or Hara, etc.. you will find it here. I read a lot of good points in a recent internals v athleticism thread.
|
|
|
|
07-25-2011, 12:57 PM
|
#27
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Benjamin Mehner wrote:
Pardon me, I'm a beginner that really knows next to nothing looking for clarification. Didn't O' Sensei say that he meant something different when he said "aiki"? I thought that his aiki was similar, but different from the aiki concept in "internal arts" like what we call aikijutsu or the Korean hapkido.
|
Interesting article on chi (ki) and relates to aiki as well.
http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_kennedy_0201.htm
Epilogue
I am not in a position to give the definitive answer as to which framework is the "true" one for chi, and the only conclusion I will put forward is that:
Chi as life force is the most widespread and traditional explanation.
Chi as biomechanics is the most provable explanation from a scientific perspective.
And, regrettably, ignorance is the most common use of the term.
So, whenever considering the word, one is reminded of Humpty Dumpty’s comment in Through the Looking Glass: "When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master -- that’s all."
dps
Last edited by dps : 07-25-2011 at 01:01 PM.
|
Go ahead, tread on me.
|
|
|
07-25-2011, 01:41 PM
|
#28
|
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 406
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Interesting article on chi (ki) and relates to aiki as well.
http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_kennedy_0201.htm
Epilogue
I am not in a position to give the definitive answer as to which framework is the "true" one for chi, and the only conclusion I will put forward is that:
Chi as life force is the most widespread and traditional explanation.
Chi as biomechanics is the most provable explanation from a scientific perspective.
And, regrettably, ignorance is the most common use of the term.
So, whenever considering the word, one is reminded of Humpty Dumpty's comment in Through the Looking Glass: "When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master -- that's all."
dps
|
That article addresses ki, but does nothing to answer what is aiki, which is not just ki. So what is aiki?
|
|
|
|
07-26-2011, 09:09 PM
|
#29
|
Location: MA
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 10
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Aiki is the result of one training their own body to be in unision with itself. Structure gives the Aiki a clear pathway to follow. Relaxation enables Aiki to travel through that structure. Intent is what fuels the Aiki in the body. When one comes into contact with one who has trained their body. Aiki is what is seen when the two meet.
Andrew Prochnow
|
|
|
|
07-27-2011, 01:22 AM
|
#30
|
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 932
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Diana Frese wrote:
... Watanabe Sensei ...
I read that his German students have published a book of photographs and sayings of his, in three languages. Do you know how any of us over here can get a copy?
|
I sent you PM.
|
|
|
|
07-27-2011, 08:06 AM
|
#31
|
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote:
Aiki is the result of one training their own body to be in unision with itself. Structure gives the Aiki a clear pathway to follow. Relaxation enables Aiki to travel through that structure. Intent is what fuels the Aiki in the body. When one comes into contact with one who has trained their body. Aiki is what is seen when the two meet.
Andrew Prochnow
|
Hey,
I really like what you wrote here only except I would replace Aiki with Ki in all places except in the last sentence.
|
Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
|
|
|
07-27-2011, 11:15 AM
|
#32
|
Location: South Jersey
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 27
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote:
Hey,
I really like what you wrote here only except I would replace Aiki with Ki in all places except in the last sentence.
|
Lorel,
Considering the source, I'd leave what Andy said exactly as he said it.
Jon
|
|
|
|
07-27-2011, 11:46 AM
|
#33
|
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Jon Haas wrote:
Lorel,
Considering the source, I'd leave what Andy said exactly as he said it.
Jon
|
To Jon and Lorel,
I can see where Lorel is coming from in his statement, and I have a good idea where Andy is coming from as well IMO, Andy's statement can stand on its own as is - however, I think the use of the word ki could be used as in the the following sentences because ki is an integral component required for developing aiki.
" Aiki is the result of one training their own body to be in unision with itself. Structure gives the ki/Aiki a clear pathway to follow. Relaxation enables ki/Aiki to travel through that structure. Intent is what fuels the ki/Aiki in the body. When one comes into contact with one who has trained their body. Aiki is what is seen when the two meet."
Aiki is definitely the word to use in the first and last sentences, however, ki could be substituted for aiki in the second, third, and fourth sentences - all depends on the context of the point you are trying to get across. IMO, with Andy's message, I think Aiki is the word for all.
Greg
|
|
|
|
07-27-2011, 10:33 PM
|
#34
|
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote:
To Jon and Lorel,
I can see where Lorel is coming from in his statement, and I have a good idea where Andy is coming from as well IMO, Andy's statement can stand on its own as is - however, I think the use of the word ki could be used as in the the following sentences because ki is an integral component required for developing aiki.
" Aiki is the result of one training their own body to be in unision with itself. Structure gives the ki/Aiki a clear pathway to follow. Relaxation enables ki/Aiki to travel through that structure. Intent is what fuels the ki/Aiki in the body. When one comes into contact with one who has trained their body. Aiki is what is seen when the two meet."
Aiki is definitely the word to use in the first and last sentences, however, ki could be substituted for aiki in the second, third, and fourth sentences - all depends on the context of the point you are trying to get across. IMO, with Andy's message, I think Aiki is the word for all.
Greg
|
This.
And I'm sure Andrew has more skills and can fight better than I can and knows what he is talking about (sometimes language can't be as precise though ), I just don't want to be confused on the terms as I learned it .
|
Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
|
|
|
07-27-2011, 11:39 PM
|
#35
|
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote:
This.
I'm sure Andrew has more skills and can fight better than I can and knows what he is talking about
|
Oh good God.
A giant
a soft giant
a tuned soft giant
Brought up in jujutsu and aiki
A soldier
An MMA guy
Hell I don't like fighting him!!
Quote:
(sometimes language can't be as precise though ), I just don't want to be confused on the terms as I learned it .
|
All I'm gonna say is some people think of power or ki as all-out or all-in.
Power is not best worked that way. There is a way to have both inside the body at all times, to balance aiki, (in- yo), in yourself. Aiki in you.
When they contact you:
Their ki meets your in yo ho, your aiki and then it is kuzushi on contact and there is instantaneous absorption, redirection, leading away and power out all at once. This is done though spiral energy.
It works in every fighting platform, works in every weapons form seamlessly and without change. It is a superior state for the body for martial arts.
Cheers
Dan
|
|
|
|
07-28-2011, 02:15 AM
|
#36
|
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 406
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
All I'm gonna say is some people think of power or ki as all-out or all-in.
Power is not best worked that way. There is a way to have both inside the body at all times, to balance aiki, (in- yo), in yourself. Aiki in you.
When they contact you:
Their ki meets your in yo ho, your aiki and then it is kuzushi on contact and there is instantaneous absorption, redirection, leading away and power out all at once. This is done though spiral energy.
It works in every fighting platform, works in every weapons form seamlessly and without change. It is a superior state for the body for martial arts.
Cheers
Dan
|
So is ki, literally or figuratively, a platform or coathanger on which to hang aiki, or is ki just entirely a distraction from training aiki?
|
|
|
|
07-28-2011, 05:35 AM
|
#37
|
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 824
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote:
Aiki is the result of one training their own body to be in unision with itself.
|
Keep One Point
Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote:
Structure gives the Aiki a clear pathway to follow.
|
Correct Posture
Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote:
Relaxation enables Aiki to travel through that structure.
|
Progressive Relaxation
Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote:
Intent is what fuels the Aiki in the body.
|
Positive Mind
Thanks Andrew. That was a wonderful description of the four principles that I was first taught when I began my Aikido study and continue to emphasize today in both my teaching and training.
Best,
Ron
|
|
|
|
07-28-2011, 06:19 AM
|
#38
|
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Oh good God.
A giant
a soft giant
a tuned soft giant
Brought up in jujutsu and aiki
A soldier
An MMA guy
Hell I don't like fighting him!!
All I'm gonna say is some people think of power or ki as all-out or all-in.
Power is not best worked that way. There is a way to have both inside the body at all times, to balance aiki, (in- yo), in yourself. Aiki in you.
When they contact you:
Their ki meets your in yo ho, your aiki and then it is kuzushi on contact and there is instantaneous absorption, redirection, leading away and power out all at once. This is done though spiral energy.
It works in every fighting platform, works in every weapons form seamlessly and without change. It is a superior state for the body for martial arts.
Cheers
Dan
|
Very interesting Dan, I'm gonna have to meet you to get a feel of what you're saying. I have been out of touch with a teacher for a long ass time now .
And this guy is one of yours eh? LOL
|
Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
|
|
|
07-28-2011, 08:10 AM
|
#39
|
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote:
Very interesting Dan, I'm gonna have to meet you to get a feel of what you're saying. I have been out of touch with a teacher for a long ass time now .
And this guy is one of yours eh? LOL
|
Hi Lorel
Andy has trained with me for 18 years. Most people who visit are very impressed with his skill and knowledge.
I have been thinking of going to Canada, who knows
Dan
|
|
|
|
07-28-2011, 08:38 AM
|
#40
|
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Hi Ron
To clear up a few things:
Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote:
Aiki is the result of one training their own body to be in unision with itself.
|
You wrote: Keep One Point.
Yes and no. Its more complicated than that.
Quote:
Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote:
Structure gives the Aiki a clear pathway to follow.
|
You wrote: Correct Posture
No. Structure is independant of posture. I routinely demonstrate a hype fluid body movement; including bending over backwards that retains all of the qualites of Toheis principles. Learning posture and to settle is a good beginners step, there's just more to it than that.
Quote:
Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote:
Relaxation enables Aiki to travel through that structure.
|
You wrote: Progressive Relaxation
I won't comment other than to say I have seen you move, until I feel you I will refrain from comparing what we do to your stuff. I will say that actively using the arms as extensions of hara in a clean way is not something I have seen often, and going after the hips usually reveals hips as tight as shoulders, making it relatively easy to throw people.
Quote:
Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote:
Intent is what fuels the Aiki in the body.
|
You wrote: Positive Mind
Well, I haven't seen anyone from Ki society use "positive mind" actively and fluidly like we use intent but I remain open. Could be the players lack and not the rule.
Quote:
Thanks Andrew. That was a wonderful description of the four principles that I was first taught when I began my Aikido study and continue to emphasize today in both my teaching and training.
Best,
Ron
|
Now isn't that interesting? I think that is a very good start. Have you ever wondered if there is more?
Cheers
Dan
|
|
|
|
07-28-2011, 08:59 AM
|
#41
|
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Hi Lorel
Andy has trained with me for 18 years. Most people who visit are very impressed with his skill and knowledge.
I have been thinking of going to Canada, who knows
Dan
|
When I go back to Toronto, I will probably take a train down to Boston. Haven't hit up Stateside in a minute.
|
Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
|
|
|
07-28-2011, 09:28 AM
|
#42
|
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
I should have included noodle arms and empty, evasive hips as well as stiff arms and hips. Its all the same to me...failure in understanding.
Dan
|
|
|
|
07-28-2011, 10:49 AM
|
#43
|
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 824
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Hi Ron
To clear up a few things:
You wrote: Keep One Point.
Yes and no. Its more complicated than that.
You wrote: Correct Posture
No. Structure is independant of posture. I routinely demonstrate a hype fluid body movement; including bending over backwards that retains all of the qualites of Toheis principles. Learning posture and to settle is a good beginners step, there's just more to it than that.
You wrote: Progressive Relaxation
I won't comment other than to say I have seen you move, until I feel you I will refrain from comparing what we do to your stuff. I will say that actively using the arms as extensions of hara in a clean way is not something I have seen often, and going after the hips usually reveals hips as tight as shoulders, making it relatively easy to throw people.
Quote:
You wrote: Positive Mind
Well, I haven't seen anyone from Ki society use "positive mind" actively and fluidly like we use intent but I remain open. Could be the players lack and not the rule.
Now isn't that interesting? I think that is a very good start. Have you ever wondered if there is more?
Cheers
Dan
|
Hi Dan -
Reading Andrew's post evoked in me the comparisons with the four principles I posted in my reply. The four principles are distillations of ideas that are more complex than the few words used to relate them. They're intended to be easily internalized metaphors for the feelings we develop during training. Andrew's concise descriptions seemed to coincide nicely with how I have come to view the principles.
Regarding structure, Maruyama sensei always reminded us that correct posture is independent of the body's configuration and that we should train to remain stable and balanced no matter how we were positioned. I call correct posture the coordination of external and internal postures to create a stable structure no matter the positioning.
I can't speak for Ki Society folks. While my Aikido roots go back to Tohei thru Maruyama, I've been an independent practitioner since 2001.
More? There's always more.
Best,
Ron
|
|
|
|
07-28-2011, 12:15 PM
|
#44
|
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 332
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
Hi Dan -
Reading Andrew's post evoked in me the comparisons with the four principles I posted in my reply. The four principles are distillations of ideas that are more complex than the few words used to relate them. They're intended to be easily internalized metaphors for the feelings we develop during training. Andrew's concise descriptions seemed to coincide nicely with how I have come to view the principles.
|
Ron
The issue for me has never been that the four principles were not descriptions of complex and very useful ideas, rather that the few words to relate them to the general population didn't provide much. The exercises used to connect these ideas to how the body mind worked and worked together were not very helpful either. I remember having graded individuals working us with exercises that I am only now seeing had value, only have value when trained in ways that include having all the blue prints, drawings, reference notes, change drawings, comments, peer reviews, interaction with folks that actually have the skills....all of it. What we got was a picture of the airplane and maybe a ride in it.
My roots go back to Tohei Sensei through my first instructor Harry Ishisaka. Tohei Sensei was in our dojo several times a year during the '70s. We had plenty of the big time guys from Hawaii in the area several times a year. We had folks who spent plenty of individual time with Tohei Sensei when he was here on the west coast........ out of this came none of the solo training details that are starting to come to the forefront now. And the reality being what it is, few of us ever had the drive, willingness or the perceptive skills to steal anything from anyone else...or even thought we could or should. Just waza waza waza..... and I have the beat up body to show for it.....
Now is a fun time....more are needed to get involved with the search.....
Just go straight......
Gary
(facilitator, instigator, and useful idiot).
|
|
|
|
07-28-2011, 12:30 PM
|
#45
|
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Thanks Gary
It's hard to talk about these things. I applaud the model, but when I keep meeting the players...well...they're very nice people.
There's nothing to say until we meet, then...one by one....
Hey..it's all good,
We're exploring Aiki...together...finally. yeah! I think Ueshiba would be jumping up and down coming to train and laughing with us!
Dan
|
|
|
|
07-28-2011, 04:38 PM
|
#46
|
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 824
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote:
Ron
The issue for me has never been that the four principles were not descriptions of complex and very useful ideas, rather that the few words to relate them to the general population didn't provide much. The exercises used to connect these ideas to how the body mind worked and worked together were not very helpful either. I remember having graded individuals working us with exercises that I am only now seeing had value, only have value when trained in ways that include having all the blue prints, drawings, reference notes, change drawings, comments, peer reviews, interaction with folks that actually have the skills....all of it. What we got was a picture of the airplane and maybe a ride in it.
|
Hi Gary -
I was fortunate when I started training in that Sensei always tied the theory and ideas back to physically feeling what was going on inside as we trained. So when he would tell me to keep one point and then test me by pushing on me he would always have me examine how I felt. Increasing pressure and varying the nature of the applied stress allowed me to become familiar with the different ways I could respond to applied force. When I started to realize the nature of correct feeling as it related to how I felt, I began to see that the phrase was an invocation to call forth the feeling. It's the model I continue to use today in teaching and training.
I think that "Ki testing" is an unfortunate phrase to use in describing the internal work we do. "Exercising Ki", of which Ki testing is only a part, is more accurate in my opinion.
Best,
Ron
|
|
|
|
07-29-2011, 04:26 AM
|
#47
|
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I've gone beyond that myself. Now, I just send the uke out on the mat, and I throw him with my mind from my house.
|
Check it out, and be jealous of my powers...
http://youtu.be/7nbwxQWQyX4
(The poor uke doesn't even know it's me doing that to him. He thinks he is just fooling around.)
|
|
|
|
07-29-2011, 09:39 AM
|
#48
|
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Check it out, and be jealous of my powers...
http://youtu.be/7nbwxQWQyX4
(The poor uke doesn't even know it's me doing that to him. He thinks he is just fooling around.)
|
That guy needs to find some friends - oh, maybe he does have friends and they are all called Harvey
Greg
|
|
|
|
07-29-2011, 09:56 AM
|
#49
|
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
Offline
|
Re: Aiki
More stuff of equal worth.
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:22 AM.
|
vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
|
|