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Old 02-24-2006, 10:11 AM   #76
roosvelt
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Chuck,

The original post wrote "By 'strike' I mean a true attack, not just an attention-getting atemi.".

So, how far do you take the "pre-emptive" strike and "real-life" idea? In "real-life" you don't know how the attacker is going to attack you. If Aikido is a "real-life" simulation excercise, why don't we do more "kick" attack? Why don't we allow "uke" to pre-pre-tmptive strikes? Whould it become fencing or boxing?

Aikido has its training method, which may not be better or worse than other training method. If you deviate too far from the norm training method, you're just raining something with different methodology.

One simple question, do you routinely "strike" your student uke? If not, why not?
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Old 02-24-2006, 10:52 AM   #77
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Roosvelt,

You assume, I think, that I practice and do aikibudo/aikido (same thing in my book) in a similar fashion as you and many others do. If not, I apologize for my misunderstanding. Every strike, grab, etc. that we do in our training method (if done properly..) is a "true attack." We do allow uke to do whatever they like in our randori training. Kata is pre-arranged, but when done properly for enough time, it becomes very real and "juicy."

I, and the other seniors, in Jiyushinkai do indeed try to "strike" our juniors. How else will they they learn? We also teach them very good ukemi first. Paradoxically, our first rule in our training is "Take Care Of Your Partner." They both can be done at the same time. Often pretty scary, but that's the point of training. We must sensitize ourselves to the closest thing to reality that we can in order to have a chance to deal with it. We also train in very strong koryu weapons arts which start out slow and controlled and in a few years can also be very, very fast, strong, and controlled. This discipline of training must go along with the larger view of budo spoken about by Ledyard Sensei and myself above. They must go hand in hand.

I apologize for being a bit pedantic, but I am very passionate about this subject. We all must train the best way we can by finding a teacher and training group that fits our heart. That is most likely the hardest part of training.

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 02-24-2006, 11:11 AM   #78
Michael O'Brien
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
One simple question, do you routinely "strike" your student uke? If not, why not?
To piggyback off of Chuck, in our dojo when my Sensei is training with the advanced or intermediate students he will routinely reverse a technique or give an attention getting strike if you leave an opening when doing a technique.

With the newer students he will normally stop them and show them where the left the opening saying "I could have hit you here" and then show them how to close the opening they left.

In our intermediate and advanced classes he not only teaches us, but encourages us, to look for openings in techniques for potential strikes or reversals.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 02-25-2006, 12:25 AM   #79
Leon Aman
 
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote:
I'd like (as much as is possible, given the title) as non-political of a debate as possible...

Is it valid, according to the philosophy and practice of aikido, to strike uke before uke moves to strike you? By 'strike' I mean a true attack, not just an attention-getting atemi.
You know that uke is going to attack you - that's uke's 'job.' How important is the timing? And how imortant is the difference between striking and atemi?

-LK
I am not sure if o sensei supports the concept of pre-emptive strike or atemi or I don't fully understand his message when he states " In the art of peace we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control. Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally.Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with with them. Never chase after opponents. Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it."


Leon
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Old 02-25-2006, 04:41 AM   #80
Mark Uttech
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Pre-emptive strikes border on fear and paranoia. We can see a clear example of this on the world stage:it is like the lightbulb joke, "how many aikidoists does it take to change a lightbulb? Just one, but the lightbulb has to make the first move..." It seems to me, that the wisdom of aikido involves being aware of your own openings; when you are concentrating on the openings of your enemy or opponent, you have already 'become' your enemy, your opponent. The Pre-emptive strike theory invites endless war, big business perhaps; but unnecessary business. In gassho
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Old 02-25-2006, 10:26 AM   #81
Edwin Neal
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Pre-emptive strikes border on fear and paranoia.

While it is true that ANY form of VIOLENCE can spring from fear and paranoia... if one's intent and spirit are in harmony this is not the case... then ones actions spring from aiki... Osensei's words and techniques neither encourage nor discourage the use of ANY technique, including preemptive type strikes or atemi... if this is the 'appropriate' aiki response...

It is necessary to develop a strategy that utilizes all the physical conditions and elements that are directly at hand. The best strategy relies upon an unlimited set of responses. -Osensei

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-25-2006, 03:49 PM   #82
Lyle Bogin
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

It would really suck if you want for a pre-emptive strike and then knocked the guy cold before you got to apply your spirit-taming kokyunage.
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Old 02-26-2006, 06:55 PM   #83
Mark Uttech
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Lyle, why does your post remind me of the "shock and awe" bombing campaign of Iraq?
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Old 02-27-2006, 02:18 PM   #84
Michael O'Brien
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
Lyle, why does your post remind me of the "shock and awe" bombing campaign of Iraq?
I would appreciate it if we do not drag politics and political opinions into this forum and discussion and limit it Aikido personally. There are enough forums where political opinions and views are being discussed.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 02-27-2006, 02:43 PM   #85
Ron Tisdale
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Pre-emptive strikes border on fear and paranoia.
Hi Mark. I don't know about that. The one time I almost had to use physical waza in a situation, it was 3 to 4 on one (I'm not counting my great aunt and her walker). If the head thug had taken a couple more steps in our direction...there is a pretty good chance I would have pre-emptively tried my darndest to stick my elbow through his face as I did sokomen iriminage. But that's just me...seeing as I couldn't run away and leave her, and I also couldn't get overly fancy and start tenkaning all over the place, either.

As luck would have it, something about the situation encouraged them to change their minds...so there was no need to use physical waza. I'll always wonder though if I actually waited too long...or if I even mis-read the whole thing entirely (possible, but I doubt it).

Best,
Ron (if you're gonna take a lickin', get the first lick in)

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 02-27-2006 at 02:45 PM.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 02-27-2006, 05:18 PM   #86
tarik
 
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
Pre-emptive strikes border on fear and paranoia.
As do reactive strikes.

Tarik

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Old 02-27-2006, 08:01 PM   #87
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Mathew Nowak wrote:
Once again, this is a real life situation. I understand that a pre-emptive strike is appropriate in a real life situation. However, you cannot call it Aikido.
This is simply not true...

If you fall into the group that maintains that there is no use of atemi in Aikido, then this statement would be consistent with your general belief that atemi is not part of the art. pre-emptive or otherwsie.

But if you accept the idea that there is legitimate use of atemi in Aikido to any degree then maintaining that a pre-emptive atemi would not legitimately be aprt of the art is an untenable position.

I think that most people believe that a confrontation happens when the first blow is initiated. This is incorrect and dangerous. The confrontation starts when the intention to attack forms in the mind.

A so-called pre-emptive strike does two things:
1) it serves to cut the intention of the attacker. It shifts him in the very first instant of the conflict to a defensive mindset rather than an offensive mindset
2) it puts the would-be attacker in reactive mode rather than active mode; since action is faster than re-action this is a necessary component of good self defense.

This is why Takeda Sensei, O-Sensei, and the other great giants of Japanese martial arts put so much emphasis on developing the intuition. The mental aspect of the art has largely gone by the wayside as training has become a massive world wide endeavor rather than an intimate direct transmission from master to student. But it was an integral part of the training for the older uchi-deshi who had occasion to work extensively with O-Sensei.

Now it is the case that this discussion has raged for hundreds of years in the Japanese martial arts. Some styles purposely wait for the opponent to commit himself to his attack. Other styles champion the idea that one should initiate. Still other styles would teach all of these various concepts and accpet them as simply differing tactical approaches. I would put Aikido in to that category. I have been taught to use all of the various timing possibilities from initiating, cutting down the opponent at the instant he decides to attack to waiting till the last possible instant thereby snatching victory from defeat, so to speak. It's all part of Aikido. One uses one concept or another as seems appropriate to a given situation.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 02-28-2006, 03:12 AM   #88
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Thanks, George,
that was what I was waiting for from competent source.

As you limited pre-emptive strikes to cut intention and put into reaction.

Given a situation that one is circled by multiple opponents and would knock out the first - probably with the idea of not getting into necessity to break an arm or even kill one of them.

In my view it is still in the spirit of protecting the opponent and thus true aikido. Nevertheless the advice would be: "Improve your technique and/or confidence, so that the next time the knock-out is not necessary."

Am I wrong or just only at the very bottom of the mountain


All the best Dirk
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Old 03-01-2006, 06:08 AM   #89
MM
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
This is simply not true...

If you fall into the group that maintains that there is no use of atemi in Aikido, then this statement would be consistent with your general belief that atemi is not part of the art. pre-emptive or otherwsie.

But if you accept the idea that there is legitimate use of atemi in Aikido to any degree then maintaining that a pre-emptive atemi would not legitimately be aprt of the art is an untenable position.

I think that most people believe that a confrontation happens when the first blow is initiated. This is incorrect and dangerous. The confrontation starts when the intention to attack forms in the mind.
I wonder if this is a matter of semantics. If we break down "pre-emptive strike" into two catagories, we could get:
1. As you stated above, the confrontation begins with the attacker's intent not his physical atemi. Therefore, tori's atemi is used to neutralize the attack.
2. Physical atemi used before attacker's intent is manifested.


Now, there are a lot of ways both situations can occur. However, if we look at #1, it really isn't a "pre-emptive" strike/atemi. We are moving at either the exact same timing of the attacker's intent or very close to it, but we are physically moving before the attacker's physical movement. By eyes alone, this could be perceived as a pre-emptive strike. But it really isn't.

With #2 and using just one example -- if one is facing several attackers, then one can use a pre-emptive strike to set up the situation where one can survive the encounter. By all intents and purposes, yeah, there is a pre-emptive strike. Is it Aikido? Having conversations with some people, no, they wouldn't view what you did as being "Aikido". But, hey, everyone's aikido is different. For me, I agree with you. It can be Aikido.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 03-01-2006, 07:19 AM   #90
Ron Tisdale
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Hi Mark,
While I do think no. two is aikido, I also don't care what it is...as long as I survive. That would be the point of that "exercise"...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 03-01-2006, 07:32 AM   #91
MM
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Mark,
While I do think no. two is aikido, I also don't care what it is...as long as I survive. That would be the point of that "exercise"...

Best,
Ron
lol, yes, I definitely agree. Surviving would be critical to me and what I'd call it would be way down on the list of caring.

But, I get times where I can think on concepts and I find myself caught on some very fine lines. Take the example of #2 above. Is it really a pre-emptive strike? If by that time (I mean by the time there are several opponents) you find yourself having to *do* something, then hasn't Aikido already started? You have several opponents who are there for very bad reasons (if not, then we really don't have a situation and don't need to do anything), so the intent has already started. If you use an atemi to redirect things such that you can survive, well, aren't you really just using Aikido to redirect their intent. You're just using a physical atemi to initiate physical blending. You should already be mentally/spiritually blending with the situation.

Looking at it like that, is there really any true "pre-emptive" strikes in Aikido? LOL, I think that's a trick question, also. Because how do you define what O-sensei did when his students would say that there was no "opening" to attack him. Was he using "pre-emptive" technique to not have an opening? Or was he using blending technique to such a fine degree that just when the student thought to attack, O-sensei took the opening away? Will we ever know?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 03-01-2006, 07:42 AM   #92
Ron Tisdale
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
so the intent has already started. If you use an atemi to redirect things such that you can survive, well, aren't you really just using Aikido to redirect their intent. You're just using a physical atemi to initiate physical blending. You should already be mentally/spiritually blending with the situation.
Well, in the situation I mentioned earlier, I was pretty busy from the moment I saw them step off the opposite curb. Since my Aunt was already out of the car, and sitting her back down would take too long, I propped her up between the body of the car and the door so she couldn't fall. I moved her cane to the hand closest to me, and made sure she didn't support herself with it so that I could grab it if needed. I angled my body to watch the 'perps', letting them know I was watching, but not confronting them. I spoke to my Aunt softly, letting her know there wasn't a problem, and that she hd nothing to worry about. I made sure they could see the fanny pack I had positioned in front of me, so they might wonder what I had in it (a lot of people carry a small firearm in those). As they came closer, I angled more directly toward the leader, making sure he knew I knew he was the leader. I was hoping like heck he knew he would be the first to go.

So yeah, the 'battle' started the minute they stepped off the curb, as far as I was concerned. But I wanted them to think that I was completely unconcerned about the whole affair.

Quote:
Will we ever know?
Nope. But that's ok too...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:35 AM   #93
James Davis
 
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Mark. I don't know about that. The one time I almost had to use physical waza in a situation, it was 3 to 4 on one (I'm not counting my great aunt and her walker). If the head thug had taken a couple more steps in our direction...there is a pretty good chance I would have pre-emptively tried my darndest to stick my elbow through his face as I did sokomen iriminage. But that's just me...seeing as I couldn't run away and leave her, and I also couldn't get overly fancy and start tenkaning all over the place, either.

As luck would have it, something about the situation encouraged them to change their minds...so there was no need to use physical waza. I'll always wonder though if I actually waited too long...or if I even mis-read the whole thing entirely (possible, but I doubt it).

Best,
Ron (if you're gonna take a lickin', get the first lick in)
You didn't wait too long; you were only able to move as fast as your aunt could, right? You might have misread their intentions, but who cares as long as you, your aunt, and the (potential) punks all got home alive and uninjured?

Don't worry too much about what happened then. Watch your back today.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 03-01-2006, 11:20 AM   #94
Ron Tisdale
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Yeah, got that right {can you see an image of me turning around trying to 'watch' my back??}

I don't worry about it all, sometimes I do think back on it and wonder though. Hmmm....well, maybe that's not entirely true. I worried enough so that I have a 'car tool' that I can have with me everytime I'm down there now. But once I made the decision to have it, I just stopped worrying. I'm not willing to carry a gun at this time, no matter what the threat. She even suggested that I get one. Natch. I respect them (guns), but just prefer not to be around them. Way too easy to do way too much damage without anywhere near enough thought. That is not an indictment of anyone who chooses differently, by the way.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:50 AM   #95
Mark Uttech
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

I think the philosophy of "pre-emptive strike" will bring about endless violence. It is a restless philosophy, not different than the guy who goes to dangerous places to test the effectiveness of his training. There is no art of peace here.
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Old 03-02-2006, 05:35 AM   #96
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
I think the philosophy of "pre-emptive strike" will bring about endless violence. It is a restless philosophy, not different than the guy who goes to dangerous places to test the effectiveness of his training. There is no art of peace here.
Just out of curiousity, how do you explain O-sensei and several of his students?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 03-02-2006, 06:37 AM   #97
Ron Tisdale
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Not only that, but my Aunt refuses to move. She lives in a very bad section of North Philly, but it is the house my parents were married in, the house she lived with her husband in and where he died, and the house where she raised her adopted son. She (unfortunately) is not going anywhere (except, as my father says, feet first).

So there is no element of going to dangerous places to test technique here. I will not abandon her, and she will not move. Oh well...sometimes a responsible life carries risks.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 03-02-2006, 07:22 AM   #98
Nick Simpson
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Great thread this. I fully belieive in the use of pre-emptive strikes both in aikido training and outside of it (if the situation so arises).

[/quote](if you're gonna take a lickin', get the first lick in)[quote]

Never a truer word was said.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 03-02-2006, 07:35 AM   #99
Ron Tisdale
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

I was browsing another thread and found this post by David V.:

Quote:
For me, that party line came from somewhere else - even if it can trace itself back to something Osensei may have said. A big piece of supporting evidence is this for me. In the radio interview Osensei gave late in his life, he was giving his usual spiel from "Takemusu Aiki," and at some point well into the monologue Osensei was delivering, at a point that the radio announcer was seriously (and obviously) lost, he, the announcer, reads an obviously prepared question: "So, isn't it true that there are no attacks in Aikido?" What does Osensei do? Does he say "Yes, that is true." Nope - he says, after laughing at the ridiculousness of the question, (paraphrasing) "Aikido is the harmony of all things. To say that Aikido can be only this or cannot be that - to say it can be only one side of a given dualism - is to deny its harmonious nature - of course there are attacks in Aikido."

Where did the announcer get that prepared question? Obviously he obtained the information via some means, but equally obviously it did not come for Osensei. My guess, some folks, folks in position enough to inform the announcer either professionally and/or incidentally, were touting such a perspective (i.e. there are no attacks in Aikido/Aikido is a non-violent art). For many folks, that perspective has gone on to become gospel. However, was it the position of Osensei or was it the position of folks in power that just used the cultural capital of Osensei "as Founder" to gain the power to determine the party line? I believe it was the latter, but regardless of one's take, one shouldn't act like this history has been decided upon once and for all. It has not - it is still very much up in the air.
I thought it interesting relative to this subject.

Hi Nick. I can' even remember where I heard that...at least I assume I heard it somewhere...it's too good for me to have come up with on my own...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 03-02-2006, 07:50 AM   #100
MM
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Re: pre-emptive strikes

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I was browsing another thread and found this post by David V.:

I thought it interesting relative to this subject.

Best,
Ron

Ron,
LOL! I read that thread today and even thought about posting that exact section here. I was reading another thread somewhere else and when I got done, checked back here and wow, you'd already posted it.

Mark
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