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Old 08-08-2005, 05:56 PM   #26
Keith R Lee
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
I can call my groundfighting whatever but to be effective, I'd have to have top and bottom, guard and passing and to train it alive with real and uncooperative opponent. It's just it'd look quite like BJJ no matter how hard I tried so why bother inventing the wheel again, I'll just do BJJ.

Aikido is all about keeping it's identity... that's why it's also drifting away from combat effectiveness... is it bad? No... just different...
Indeed. Good post. I particularly agree with this part.

Although, while those BJJ guys are really good with their armbars, they seem to have a problem with us Sambo guys and our leglocks...

Keith Lee
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Old 08-08-2005, 07:02 PM   #27
DustinAcuff
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

You can get out of a choke if you understand the mechanics of that choke. Almost every choke excepting the guillotine and triangle have some points where they can be peeled off even if they are set in, fingers and toes are a good example. Every choke exposes some pressurepoints that can cause some rather intresting reactions. Not to mention at any given time I have car keys, pocket change, a knife, a cell phone, maybe a pin, possibly sunglasses, or heck even sandals. I'm not talking about fighting a good BJJ person out of a choke, I am talking about getting that choke off of me any way I can. The goal is getting a choke off because that is a direct threat to your life since you can't make sure that they let go after you are out. Any means that work within 7 seconds are game.
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Old 08-08-2005, 11:49 PM   #28
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

BJJ vs Aikido... this is IMO what will happen, assuming this is not a cage fight.

BJJ'er will try to close the distance against the aikidoka by a series of moves, feint jabs. Aikidoka, who are trained to maintain distance will tenkan, spin, kaiten out of BJJ'er reach. After what seem like hours both MA will be tired and frustrated.

BJJ'er will sit down in frustration and open up a can of budweiser to cool down while the aikidoka will open his bento set and eat his sesame seed garnished sticky rice balls.

The next round continue and again nothing happened as two martial artist just keep circling around the fight area. After what seem like another hour, the really tired MArtist call it quit and head down to the nearest pub and call two buds. They then decide to learn from each other and attend each other's dojo/gym with open mindedness.

Boon.

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Old 08-09-2005, 12:50 AM   #29
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Amen Boon!

Kinda funny to realize that yet another thread has become a my art vs your art.
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Old 08-09-2005, 12:52 AM   #30
Keith R Lee
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

or the BJJer would close distance, take the aikidoka to the ground, and submit them. which is much more likley.

Keith Lee
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Old 08-09-2005, 12:55 AM   #31
DustinAcuff
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

If the BJJer had Judo experience and went for a Judo takedown would the Aikidoka immedately recognize the movements of his nemesis art and throw the BJJer for a repeat preformance of O Sensei vs Kano Sensei?
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Old 08-09-2005, 01:18 AM   #32
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
O Sensei vs Kano Sensei?
Ueshiba M. fought Kano J.?

Besides the strange combination of referring to Ueshiba M. as O Sensei and Kano J. as something less - I don't think that the two ever came to grips.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-09-2005, 01:37 AM   #33
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

I do believe that that was the time that Ueshiba and Kano had a bit of a challenge between Aikido and Judo that ended with Kano declaring Aikido the "ultimate budo." I am pretty sure I am not confused here but I could be. It was not supposed to be a violent encounter or anything. In conjunction with this same event Kano was supposed to have said something along the lines of Aikido being like practicing Judo with an empty gi. It is past midnight here so I could be confused and crossing any number of things.

The O Sensei vs Kano Sensei was not by any means intended to raise one above the other, I just cannot spell Ueshiba unless it is right in front of me, plus I have seen it spelled a few diffrent ways, O Sensei is just an easy way to refer to Ueshiba in particular.
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Old 08-09-2005, 01:55 AM   #34
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

It was as simple as Kano J. watching an Enbu (demonstration) of Ueshiba M. He commented that it was "true Budo" which does not imply that Judo wasn't. I think our own Chris Li pointed out that there is no "the" in Japanese. I think the difference between "true Budo" and "THE true Budo" is huge.

Kano J. was very much interested in having masters from different Budo teach at the Kodokan. He could not get Ueshiba M. to teach and ended up sending a couple students to train under him. Others, such as Kenji Tomiki, had already found their way there.

I was playing a bit with the O sensei thing - normally in Japan I hear Ueshiba sensei or Kaiso from Aikikai people. Rarely the Irish version. I find the O sensei thing a bit over the top.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-09-2005, 02:20 AM   #35
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
It was as simple as Kano J. watching an Enbu (demonstration) of Ueshiba M. He commented that it was "true Budo" which does not imply that Judo wasn't. I think our own Chris Li pointed out that there is no "the" in Japanese. I think the difference between "true Budo" and "THE true Budo" is huge.

Kano J. was very much interested in having masters from different Budo teach at the Kodokan. He could not get Ueshiba M. to teach and ended up sending a couple students to train under him. Others, such as Kenji Tomiki, had already found their way there.

I was playing a bit with the O sensei thing - normally in Japan I hear Ueshiba sensei or Kaiso from Aikikai people. Rarely the Irish version. I find the O sensei thing a bit over the top.
Damm,

PeterR beat me to answering it. But then Dustin... Peter is basically a walking Encyclopaedia of everything related to Japanese Martial Art. Consider him the "Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy" ala aikido version.

Boon.

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Old 08-09-2005, 02:39 AM   #36
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

aikido - mostly harmless

(sorry, couldn't resist)
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:30 AM   #37
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Dustin: "Every choke exposes some pressurepoints that can cause some rather intresting reactions. Not to mention at any given time I have car keys, pocket change, a knife, a cell phone, maybe a pin, possibly sunglasses, or heck even sandals"

How do you know? How do you train that? Funny view you have... in my book the triangle and guillotine (especially) are the easiest chokes to get out because they are bottom chokes. I do not see any rational escapes from applied rear naked choke though.

All that judo talk reminds me of some judo history I read from a Judo instructional book (don't recall the name, sorry) where it was said in the old days the Kosen Judo guys pulled guard in competitions and submitted all the Kodokan guys until Kano and the other Kodokan heads decided to change the rules.

Xuzen: "BJJ'er will sit down in frustration and..." nooooo... it's not the frustration, he is just unleashing the ultimate technique of BJJ - the buttscoot

Ketih: "they seem to have a problem with us Sambo guys and our leglocks..." Yeah so it is but I think you understand they are already almost the same especially from MMA / SD point of view. Give or take some odd suprising leglock or some wicked open guard sweeps - both differences sprining from the specific sport-ruleset, the arts are the same, the mechanics of the techniques are the same and there exists a best way to train them.
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Old 08-09-2005, 07:37 AM   #38
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
All that judo talk reminds me of some judo history I read from a Judo instructional book (don't recall the name, sorry) where it was said in the old days the Kosen Judo guys pulled guard in competitions and submitted all the Kodokan guys until Kano and the other Kodokan heads decided to change the rules.
This is way outside of what I actually *know* - but I was told that the kodokan guys had good answers for the guard but hadn't been practicing any of those moves for a long time until UFC came on the scene and forced them to re-open some of their old technical books. Was that just rumor? (I really don't know.)

Rob
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Old 08-09-2005, 07:55 AM   #39
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Quote:
This is way outside of what I actually *know* - but I was told that the kodokan guys had good answers for the guard but hadn't been practicing any of those moves for a long time until UFC came on the scene and forced them to re-open some of their old technical books. Was that just rumor? (I really don't know.)
Thats about right, many of the ground techniques have become neglected in Judo because the rules for competition discourage ground fighting.
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Old 08-09-2005, 07:56 AM   #40
Jorx
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Of course the Kodokan guys had answers! They wanted to be competitive with the Kosen guys so they had to deal with the guard. But as this books tated the Kosen guys were more successful with their groundfighting tactics than Kodokan guys with their throwing emphasis. Until they changed the sportrules. This changing over the time (I think the last MAJOR rulechange was before the first olympics when they banned leglocks and such - might be wrong on that fact though) has resulted in judo going towards the standup throwing... also the gripping rules affect this very much.

But again... take any gi-throwing art (judo, sambo, bjj) - in the SD context it is all the same. In MMA-context it blends with wrestling...

Now what is INTERESTING is that if you look into TMA's - they're view is DIFFERENT. Chin-na groundfighting system and methods is vastly different from Bjj / judo / sambo groundfighting. Some Blah-Ryu-Jujutsu standup is rather different from bjj / judo / sambo throws (sure there are some similarities but the methods and form is usually different).

Why? Again I say, the arts have chosen to NOT sacrifice their methodology/philosophy/identity on the altar of EFFICIENCY.
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Old 08-09-2005, 09:58 AM   #41
Keith R Lee
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Jorgen, oh yeah I completely agree. Pretty regularly students from one of the BJJ schools in town come over and roll with us, so there's a fair bit of cross-pollination. It's just that they usually end up armbaring us and we leglock them. I was just making a bit of a joke, hence the .

I think the big problem is that when one never engages in competition, and train only in cooperative practice, one begins to make assumptions of what whill happen in a real physical encounter. And as it's said: "Assumption is the mother of all &%#@-ups."

As an extreme example take France after WWI. They were still so frightened by Germany even though they won they built the Maginot Line. The Maginot LIne was a series of outposts, canons, tank obstecles, etc. along the French-German border. The idea was that the Line would provide France a strong defense against any invading German army and allow them time in which to deal with the invading army. The only problem is that France built the Line across the entire border except along the Ardennes Forest which the French assumed to be impenatrable.

Guess what happened?

The Germans blasted right though the Ardennes and went right around the entire Line, rendering it useless. The French were still under the assumption that the static (dead, not live) and entirely defensive combat that had worked so well in WWI, would continue to work well. However, the Germans had learned from their mistakes, adapted, and had moved on. Hence, the new German military doctrine of "blitzkreig" or "lightning war" (Man, the Prussians were really good at war. Sorry, I'm a bit of a military history dork) in which they used speed and shock to prevent opponents from providing a stable defense.

And guess what? Any martial art without resistant, "live" training, like many Aikido dojos, are the Maginot Line of martial arts. If something comes at a student, who has never engaged in "live" training, in the way they assume things are going to happen, then they will probably have a reasonable answer/defense. However, as soon as something else happens, some different variable is entered into the equation that they have never dealt with; their assumptions are going to be shattered and the student is going to be blitzkreig'ed.

Keith Lee
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Old 08-09-2005, 12:26 PM   #42
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Jorgen: "How do you know? How do you train that? Funny view you have... in my book the triangle and guillotine (especially) are the easiest chokes to get out because they are bottom chokes. I do not see any rational escapes from applied rear naked choke though."

The thing about BJJ is that it is still linear. You can move circularly on the ground in three-dimensions so why stay on the line? Anything attached to you must follow your center so if you rotate around someone who his holding you from behind then they become the axis and the movement of your center can and will create any and all of the openings needed to escape any technique and cause the tap/break.

It is also structured and limited by rules. No small circle because it is too dangerous. No "crush" techniques while in gi. No biting. No weapons. No pressure points. And the preconcived notions that the only ways out of techniques are the ones you have been shown or that you saw in the Gracie Ju Jutsu book/video.
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Old 08-09-2005, 12:29 PM   #43
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

I expected Ueshiba Sensei vs. Kano Sensei was more urban legend than fact. It is nice to know something new.
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Old 08-09-2005, 01:35 PM   #44
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

BJJ? Linear? Why do you think most of the BJJ schools have a traingle in a circle in their logotype? There are ALL KINDS of movements. Just like in Aikido. Though both Aikido and BJJ (and many other MA for that matter) people like to emphasize triangle and circle.

It seems, that you think inside the "Gracie Jiujitsu" box. BJJ / groundfighting is long past the "gracie phenomenon" (the fact that Roger Gracie is the ADCC and Mundials champ has nothing to do with it) and "the gracies" is just another marketing brand / school. Also "sport-bjj-box" in general. One can train in a gi. One can add strikes, light fingergrabbing, pressurepoints and even biting (heard that Paul Vunaks practices it with stakes tied to the neck - a bit goofy yes, I myself think that to address the biting probability there's enough of some thinking and only a little bit of training with bite-possibility-simulation). DogBrothers MA do stickgrappling. YET the delivery system remains the same. Sure, we take the gi off - some open guard sweeps fly off the window... gi chokes obviously. We add strikes - playing half guard becomes a less wise decision, lots of random scrambling gets added we add a stick lots of goofy harassment moves become available but the possibility of movements in general and the movements remain the same.

And man... I try to invent new techniques all the time I do not have the luxury of a BJJ blackbelt spoonfeeding me techniques and answering questions all the time. I think something out, I field test it. Works for me on samesized opponent in drill? Great, now try it in sparring. Now try against a larger opponent. Doesn't work = mental note: try it only in your own weightclass. Works against a larger opponent? Great... now try it in sparring against a wrestler who might give some unorthodox responses. Still works? Awesome Usually I'm not that successful though.

Well... ok... I re-read your post and I really do not understand what are you implying on this "moving around" talk. Could you be more specific?

Last edited by Jorx : 08-09-2005 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 08-09-2005, 01:56 PM   #45
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Sorry Dustin, no offence meant: I meant you think inside a box ABOUT BJJ not in general. Maybe it comes from your limited exposure to BJJ... it was a Gracie affiliated, sport oriented, brazilian gym... all of which have a very specific influence.
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:59 PM   #46
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

I won't deny that my knowledge on the subject may be somewhat limited. And it appears that BJJ has gone the same way as every other art around today: people are doing whatever the heck they want with it. Some gyms could be more effective, some less.

The moving around is a diffrent philosophy or way of doing things, I'm not sure which. I'll explain as best I can. There is going to be some circular logic and odd phrasology but it should make sense after reading it a couple times.

An arm bar is a technique based on principle. The principle is based on hyperextending the forearm beyond the normal range of motion with the goal of breaking the arm. What is happening here is that the bicep is fully elongated past it's stregnth zone which allows the forearm to be manuvered so that the radius and ulna are at just such an angle so that if more force is applied the effort goes away from the bicep and onto the head of the ulna where it locks against the humerus resulting in the leverage applied ripping apart the joint. So the real concept here is get the head of the ulna to apply force to the humerus. Traditionally it is straightened through force applied to the elbow, either using the legs or the arms. The armbar from the guard is a good example of how one manuveres himself into line to do this. Key thought in that last sentence: one manuvers himself into line to do this. Same thing on armbar from full mount: you rotate around the arm to create the technique. Manuvering yourself in this way requires you to create the technique instead of letting the technique create itself. This results in it being jujutsu, requiring force to be overcome to make the technique.

What I am talking about is the exact opposite in some ways. Rather than positioning myself for an armbar and effecting the technique I take a point of attachment and let the technique create itself. Again the armbar analogy. Since the principle is the arm being made to where the ulna is in opposition to the humerus, how can you create that circumstance? You have to have some form of a lever, some form of a fulcrum, and since you are speaking of an armbar, an axis (the body). These can be created any number of ways. The arm can be rotated around the body until the technique creates itself from one position (think that running in circles on the ground break-dance move). If the arm is twisted it will naturally "uncurl" itself to prevent damage to the larger joint of the shoulder. You can also bring the arm into this position by crossing the opponent's center. The key is knowing the mechanics of the armbar and knowing the paths at that particuar instant that allow the technique to come into being and just reinforcing it a little bit instead of forcing the technique. It is just the aikido conept of anything attached to you follows your center being applied.

What I just refrenced has probably been experienced at some point by most submission grapplers. That one technique that you have no idea how you pulled it off when you were position hunting. I am talking about a completely diffrent method of groundwork than any JJ I have ever seen. I have seen some elements present but never in the same coherent pattern without a pattern type thing. A good way to describe it would be letting the body submit itself instead of submitting it.

Hope that helps but I doubt that it can be accurately explained. It just needs to be seen and felt.
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Old 08-10-2005, 01:22 AM   #47
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Hi Keith,
al little bit off topic.
Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
As an extreme example take France after WWI. They were still so frightened by Germany even though they won they built the Maginot Line. The Maginot LIne was a series of outposts, canons, tank obstecles, etc. along the French-German border. The idea was that the Line would provide France a strong defense against any invading German army and allow them time in which to deal with the invading army. The only problem is that France built the Line across the entire border except along the Ardennes Forest which the French assumed to be impenatrable.
I just was told a little bit different.
Relying on the Ardennes Forrest being impenetable is somewhat weird as that was the same route the Germans (we, my forefathers) did take a few years before.

As you might know the Ardennes mountains are nearly complete Belgian and Luxembourgish.
Anyhow, hoping that the german army would respect thos neutral countries is somehow weird, too, as they did not do so before.

In fact the France was hoping to have enough time to convince Luxembourg, Belgium, and the United States of Netherlands to prolongate the Maginot line on their territory.
They did not want to to offend their neighbours by creating a defence line against them, it is not very useful to try to defend uphill, if you can do so downhill, the border would be significantly shorter, and of course it was a matter of finance. So they wanted the other countries to contribute their part.

Big mistake made from all four of them. There might be some more tactical faults on the French side. But even under WWI conditions, the problem with the static defence line was that if an aggressor would break it at one point by pure power or any trick the hole defence line became useful. And building up that huge Maginot line was done on the expense of other more flexible armed forces.

Let's stop this. I know I am not fully right either, as I am not a military history expert and it does not affect the validty of your arguments.

Cheers Dirk
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Old 08-10-2005, 01:41 AM   #48
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Dustin I'm sorry, it is early morning and I still do not get it what are you trying to say. The thing it began off was that you said in your view Aikido was a circular art, BJJ was a linear art. Now you come up with two therotical BJJ'ish examples and mention that it has been experienced by subgrapplers. Then you say something about completely different method of groundfighting. If I move from top to armbar position I might NOT crank it but wait for his body to stand up, halfcircle around again and catch him into an omoplata or triangle - isn't that what you were talking about? Also if one is holding onto the other hand while armbarred and tries to move into opposite direction to escape I fall on my side which makes for him harder to use the force he uses against me and I catch the armbar...

If one grapples someone with less grappling ability one can pretty much flow around and take only the techniques which he "gives" to you. However if one grapples someone with about the same ability and with maybe bigger size, yes one needs also ALL the attributes BESIDES the pure technique to be succesful.

...but really... maybe I'm getting you here all wrong but it seems the dichotomy you are making is artificial.
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Old 08-10-2005, 11:09 AM   #49
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

What I am describing is what I have seen and felt during the ground training and talked with more experienced students with.

The armbar to omoplata is kind of the idea but not really. The technical dynamics are just diffrent. Maybe this would make more sense to you: anything attatched to you must follow your center and anything you are attatched to must follow your center, what I am speaking about is taking advantage of that attatchment by moving my center in such a way that 90 degree angles relative to joints and/or energy given are created and reinforced.

It is not nearly as difficult as it sounds. I guess it is kind of like trying to explain the properties of kote gaeshi to someone who has never seen it. I cannot really speak on technique per se because I have not been taught technique, I have been taught application.

I am not saying that what I am talking about is superior to BJJ, just that the mechanics are a bit more free flow and adaptive. BJJ is like playing body-chess, Kito is like watching a spider rolling up something in it's web. Possibly the diffrence between a good judo throw and a good aikido throw.
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Old 08-10-2005, 12:32 PM   #50
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Re: BJJ vs. Aikido

Have to see it. I can not understand how it's a different system which is not already included in BJJ as well...

And good judo throws IMO are very Aiki sometimes
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