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Old 07-07-2005, 12:37 PM   #26
crusecontrl
 
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
I cannot speak for Aikido 100% because I am not aikido and have a variety of different techniques that you may or may not have depending on your dojo but.....
1. get off the line
2. irimi
3. tenkan
4. blend & intercept
5. cut
For the clench: irimi, raise one of uke's elbows and cut the other one down, make tenkan as the raise and cut is made. SLOWLY in practice or uke will fly head over heels. This can be done at any time. If you so desire and uke's hands stay clenched go into suwariwaza and cut both elbows to center. Very important: you must maintain posture even if uke is still attached behind your head.
For elbows: how many techniques involve the wrist near your shoulder position? ikkyo nikyo yonkyo shihonage numerous garami kotegeashi... the list goes on. you can "catch" any of these from an elbow strike. For upwards strikes/uppercuts just evade the elbow and you have iriminage and tenchi nage already set up.
Knees: you have no balanceon one foot. find yourself a good pressurepoint and atemi HARD or just come up the face and cut downward and backwards while making irimi.

Just incase you didn't notice these are just the basic principles of how aikido works--in reality you dont get "techniques" per se unless you have very trained or they just happen but as long as you apply the principles you can easily hold your own against anyone as long as you have to.
have you ever had some one blasting away at you with knees i mean really GOOOD knees i dare you to try and find a PP and hit it precisely and not end up on the floor a nice knee to the liver. solurplex (sp) and you are bent in half. you do all you can to block and defend them yes but come one be realistic in what is going on here

--we are all one--
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Old 07-07-2005, 12:51 PM   #27
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

I am being realistic. I have had good knees coming at me. there are a number of PPs that are quite easy to hit as well as areas that will just drop you to your knees. my favorite of which is the trachea. if you play by their rules and stay on the line and try to out fight them then you are right, you will get your butt handed to you. but if you dont play by their rules and go in with the mentality that since this is a real situation (aka life and death in your mind) you will do anything to survive and not win a trophy/bout/whatever you will more than likely be the one who walks out. when you are fighting for a title it is alot diffrent than fighting to survive.
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Old 07-07-2005, 12:55 PM   #28
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
I am being realistic. I have had good knees coming at me. there are a number of PPs that are quite easy to hit as well as areas that will just drop you to your knees. my favorite of which is the trachea. if you play by their rules and stay on the line and try to out fight them then you are right, you will get your butt handed to you. but if you dont play by their rules and go in with the mentality that since this is a real situation (aka life and death in your mind) you will do anything to survive and not win a trophy/bout/whatever you will more than likely be the one who walks out. when you are fighting for a title it is alot diffrent than fighting to survive.
yes the neck good one but fast and furious with your head being pulled everywhich way **head goes body follows** and im blasting away you still think you could hit the trach with enough force to make me stop ??


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Old 07-07-2005, 01:44 PM   #29
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

maybe maybe not. say i went for your eye with a thumb instead? I am not and I repeat NOT saying that anyone can deal with a Muai Thai kickboxer who is skilled at this moment in time, but I am saying that it can be and has been done before. Every art has flaws even aikido. also you have changed the context of the question being asked: I was referring to free standing knees, not knees being thrown from a clench. knees from a clench are a little diffrent. you best defence is to break the clench and end it as fast as possible any way you can.

Honestly, I find debate like this intresting but rather pointless. In the world of What If then everything is possible. Theoretically the first knee that lands will cause major trauma in my skull and later result in death. It is possible that you will slip on a stray rock as you are throwing the knee. I'm just pointing out that if this is kept up we could have 5 more pages of I bet my what if can beat your what if like we already do in so many other pages.

Last edited by DustinAcuff : 07-07-2005 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 07-07-2005, 01:49 PM   #30
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
maybe maybe not. say i went for your eye with a thumb instead? I am not and I repeat NOT saying that anyone can deal with a Muai Thai kickboxer who is skilled at this moment in time, but I am saying that it can be and has been done before. Every art has flaws even aikido. also you have changed the context of the question being asked: I was referring to free standing knees, not knees being thrown from a clench. knees from a clench are a little diffrent. you best defence is to break the clench and end it as fast as possible any way you can.

Honestly, I find debate like this intresting but rather pointless. In the world of What If then everything is possible. Theoretically the first knee that lands will cause major trauma in my skull and later result in death. It is possible that you will slip on a stray rock as you are throwing the knee. I'm just pointing out that if this is kept up we could have 5 more pages of I bet my what if can beat your what if like we already do in so many other pages.
Standing O for this man outstanding
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Old 07-07-2005, 03:39 PM   #31
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Dustin Acuff wrote:
Quote:
For the clench: irimi, raise one of uke's elbows and cut the other one down, make tenkan as the raise and cut is made. SLOWLY in practice or uke will fly head over heels. This can be done at any time. If you so desire and uke's hands stay clenched go into suwariwaza and cut both elbows to center. Very important: you must maintain posture even if uke is still attached behind your head.
For elbows: how many techniques involve the wrist near your shoulder position? ikkyo nikyo yonkyo shihonage numerous garami kotegeashi... the list goes on. you can "catch" any of these from an elbow strike. For upwards strikes/uppercuts just evade the elbow and you have iriminage and tenchi nage already set up.
Knees: you have no balanceon one foot. find yourself a good pressurepoint and atemi HARD or just come up the face and cut downward and backwards while making irimi.
I am not sure how much experience you have with experienced muay thai guys or grapplers, but it is not as easy as you are making it sound.

Certainly and technically you are correct on many of your points, yes the correct thing to do is to "move off line" and behind your opponent. (irimi/tenkan)

Here is the issue: When a good Muay Thai guy has you down like that, he is owning your center, you are bent at the waist and he is controlling you. There is no way you can pop an elbow up and tenkan when he has you down like this properly. You will have to drop you knees down, guarding against knee strikes and bring you hips back foward to get back your posture. While you are doing this, he will switch up on you, pummel down through your arms and get you in double underhooks if you are not careful, negating your ability to simply irimi behind him.

It is a tough position to be in, and not quite as easy as irimi. I usually start controlling the hips as Matt Paul decribes...do that, or drop my hips down and shoot for a double leg take down. good luck!

For elbows, upper cuts, hooks etc. Your not going to "catch" these things from a good Muay Thai guy...the are much too fast, so you need to worry about your foot work and moving to a place that they cannot hurt you first. If you are in that range, the clinch is your best friend. If not, then get out of his range. It is that simple.

Muay Thai is a sport, Aikido is a Way. Don't confuse the two and try to use them interchangably. A Muay Thai guy has rules that cause him to fight the way he does. Aikido as a way has a strategy that would never have you committing to enter his range. Why not walk away, or move using your foot work to a point of safety, waiting for him to over commit and attack, then irimi and tenkan your heart out! If you did this in the ring as a strategy, the ref would call you for stalling since a good Muay Thai guy will not engage from the distance you want to fight from either so you are forced to go into his range. What works best at that range? Muay Thai...not aikido!

Right tools for the right job! That is why MMA guys are training in Escrima, Kali, Muay Thai, and BJJ ...so they can do these things.

Aikido is wondeful as a way (DO)...and yes the principles are universal, but as a strategy...not a good idea necesarily if you are looking to engage someone in trading blows or submission fighting!

Quote:
as you apply the principles you can easily hold your own against anyone as long as you have to.
Ok, in "theory" this is true...but in reality it is not. As in life, experience, short cuts, cheating, and just being lucky will when the fight. May not win the war...but certainly the fight...and sometimes that is all that matters depending on the situation!

If all you needed was principles to be successful, Business and economic College professors would all be millionaires!
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Old 07-07-2005, 03:49 PM   #32
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Quote:
Every art has flaws even aikido. also you have changed the context of the question being asked: I was referring to free standing knees, not knees being thrown from a clench. knees from a clench are a little diffrent.
But that was the question of the thread starter...knees from the clinch...head clinch specifically.

Quote:
Honestly, I find debate like this intresting but rather pointless. In the world of What If then everything is possible.
Again, the thread starter asked a very specific "what if".

I really do not like to "jump all over a post", but when I see things I disagree with, I will counter it constructively.

It's not about saying my "what if will beat your what if". Simply about giving good advice. I think the point is, that experienced Fighters make the situation or the "game" much more difficult than..."oh you just need to apply what you learn in aikido and irimi/tenkan".

It gives people the a false sense of security in there technique, contributes to their frustration level when the fail to succeed, and gives aikido a bad name when aikidoka fail trying to apply principles/technique into another realm of fighting strategy designed to defeat many of the things we hold dear to our hearts in aikido. That is all.

No hard feelings!
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Old 07-07-2005, 03:56 PM   #33
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Quote:
if you dont play by their rules and go in with the mentality that since this is a real situation (aka life and death in your mind) you will do anything to survive and not win a trophy/bout/whatever you will more than likely be the one who walks out. when you are fighting for a title it is alot diffrent than fighting to survive.
And here is the crux of the situation. I tend to agree with you here for the most part. (I wrote my response while you posted yours, so I kinda repeated this in mine as well).

Aikidoka get slammed constantly by MMA guys and sport fighters because they fall prey to playing by their rules and trying to apply aikido in the MMA paradigm. Aikido is a Way....a training methodology designed to convey principles the O'Sensei and his senior students thought were important to pass on to the world. yes, the techniques and principles are relevant to fighting arts and yes, you can interpret just about anything done in any art as being a part of aikido since the principles are universal.

You should, however, keep focused on the goals of aikido and realize that the way it is taught does not make for a very good fighter..even a "no rules fighter" where all the nasty things that you talk about can be done. There are better ways to put the "attack chains" and strategies together if this is your intent.

Aikido does do a good job of making good citizens, and demonstrating the intent and principles of aikido!
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Old 07-08-2005, 07:09 PM   #34
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Kevin, I agree with you on all points.
The bottom line is Muai Thai is an extremely effective martial art. Frankly you are in trouble if you EVER find yourself there in reality because someoen who can kick you and snap your femur/ribs/arms/skull in half has just gained control of the center.
I also have made it clear in a variety of spots that I am not Aikido and I lack the ability to speak for it 100% of the time. I am a Daito practitioner. My art is around 1000 years old and designed for ANYONE to be able to remove a trained samurai from the battlefield. I believe that since Aikido is kind of a cousin/daughter art of Daito and contains many of the same techniques that it could be used in the same manner if the practitioner simply knew how.
I am not saying that I can beat anything on two legs or any given MMAist or Muai Thai fighter. As I have mentioned, I have been there done that in Muai Thai and I have alot of respect for it as an art.
As to you saying that Aikido does not work in close, I disagree. I have been taught how my techniques actually work better and faster close in the knee/elbow/grapple range. Could be the Daito, could just be my sensei, but either way it does work.
If I had a choice between engage or run then I will run. But if I am backed into a corner so to speak then I will embrace being a jitsu (not a do) and do my absolute best to be the one who walks away, maybe not unhurt, maybe not felling so great, but still walking away. I would like it very much if I was able to neutralize an attacker without hurting them, but I did not ask to be attacked and if I let you attack me you are not going to give me flowers and a box of chocolates; If I must remove you from the gene pool to survive then so be it, I am very sorry about it but better you than me.
This is one point where I honestly believe that Aikido has lost some of its roots. O Sensei is remembered as he was in the twilight of his life, the kind, caring, compassionate, wise old man that he became, not someone who in his youth had an incredible temper or someone who had made martial arts his entire life and slowly changed into a softer person. Infact his younger years are in many aspects kind of a secret that no one talks about, another one is Daito -- many modern aikido schools concider us to be very brutal and I have heard people try to deny any association.

Best,
Dustin
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Old 07-08-2005, 08:00 PM   #35
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

The original purpose of the thread is to find a way to use aikido against elbows and knees, especially the Muay thai clinch. Having dicussed where aiki can go wrong, let us hear your expertise, please share your alternative techniques how to defend and beat the clinch. Aikido is considered a mature martial arts. Most aikidokas that I know, met, and encountered did other martial arts first, then converted to aiki later. So it is safe to conclude that most aikidokas can kick, punch, and even do the clinch themselves.

Given all the factors and arguments that aiki is not effective enough for that distance(which I say I disagree), and also considering the variables that most aikidokas can do other martial arts. How can we use the concept of aiki against the clinch.

It is very easy to point out a problem to a technique or an art. However a good martial artist can point out a solution to the very same problem.

So what is the defence against the clinch?

Last edited by Tubig : 07-08-2005 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 07-08-2005, 09:28 PM   #36
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Good post Cromwell.

Personally I think if someone brainwashes himself into believing that his art is a "Do" manifestation of the older jutsu and therefore has no martial/self defence applicability and therefore useless for self defence then that person has already mentally admitted defeat to any aggressor and by his own mind will be easily defeated.

Lol. If Kevin's generalisations about "Do" arts and their practical uselessness for fighting or self defence (because they are designed as a Way to teach O-sensei's principles) were correct I would without a doubt be dead today, since I would be guilty of what I described in the above paragraph. Please folks remember that there are many "Do" manifestations of Aikido (and Instructors on this path also) that will stand on equal practical footing with anything else out there claiming to be effective "fighting" arts. "Do" does not automatically translate to "BS SD training" - that is up to you and your instructor, the goals you want to achieve and the methods you employ to get there. The Do should always embody and encompass the principles and pragmatism of the Jutsu. Even though we do have some sorry expressions of the jutsu aspects out there in Aikido world, this is surely not the case in all camps. It is a Way, but it is a BU-do - Martial Way. If the Martial is nonexistent in the Way, then anything claiming to be Budo has in fact lost it's way (shameless pun I know).

To deal with a clinch knee strike - Dustin had a good option if used with a quick, deep entry on the outside weak line, with Tori keeping his hips low and back straight (meaning MT guy never gets the torso to bend his way to start). The cut down on the elbow is good for kuzushi and once the MT guy has grabbed and is serious about kneeing you it will be difficult to quickly disengage if Tori knows what he is doing. Even without the cut down kuzushi, all Tori needs to do is enter hard on the outside, strike/throwing up across the neck/jaw line/temple with gyaku gamae ate (sokumen) while sweeping MT guy's striking thigh and leg upward with the other hand (under the knee) which also helps to place his weight upwards and backwards across his weak line of balance. He will go down if done properly, since you will catch him standing on one leg and have placed him really off balance. It's important to keep one's back straight and finishing stance stable so that even when he falls he can't hold on and take you down with him where he can try to pull guard or something. If I can get to film this I will put it up for folks to get a visual idea.

Overall, Joseph Bowen gave a great response as far as solutions go.

Always think of ways of applying the principles, know the weak and strong lines of force and the instinctive responses to kuzushi and exploit them to your advantage.

Just a few thoughts.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 07-08-2005 at 09:34 PM.

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Old 07-08-2005, 11:37 PM   #37
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Just a reminder: going for the clinch is a two arm grab. you have a number of ways to stop it right there. letting uke get that clinch is a no no unless you want to take the beating to get out.
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Old 07-09-2005, 03:53 PM   #38
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Best way to beat the clinch is to avoid the clinch. If he gets the clinch you need to keep your balance and center. (applying aikido principles), and then pummel until you have the clinch on him. Incidently pummelling really is the same thing as kokyu. you have to move your hips and rotate your arms if done correctly. As others have pointed out, then you break balance on one side of uke, and clinch either in a seat belt position of rear clinch if possible.

I never said the aikido principles don't apply. Never ever said that. I simply said there was much more to it than simply move off the line and irimi/tenkan.
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Old 07-09-2005, 04:07 PM   #39
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Larry. Yes I am guilty of generalizing the DO art aspect. Yes, there are jitsu or SU aspects in the DO arts, they are based on them, as you know. The difference is the application and focus. DO arts, as a generalization, tend to focus on the martial way versus being martially or situationally effective. There is nothing wrong with that, and it is why I like to study aikido.

As a generalization, my point is if you are studying a DO art, then it is probably better to concentrate on the DO aspects or learning priniciples and philosophy since overall that is what they are designed to convey.

Concentrating on defeating the clinch and real fighting skills, IMHO, can cause you to loose focus on that, and in my opinion, many DO teachers are not the ones that really care to, or should teach you these things necessarily, if this is your focus. You are better off studying MMA or something else if this is what you want out of martial arts. Why? because the DO arts typically are not efficient or aligned in this regard.

Can aikido instructors teach real techniques? Of course they can! As you know, many have contracts with police departments etc. In that situation though they are not teaching aikido, but techniques that can be applied in various situaitons. This is a big difference from aikido though.

That said, sure there are real applications with in the DO, and YES, the bunkai should be explained to students so they have an understanding of the etiology of the kata, technique, etc.

However, as practiced in most Aikido dojo's I have been in, there is a huge gap between understanding the practical application of the technique and being able and having the experience to apply it in a real situation, or against a Muay Thai fighter. There are "80% solutions" and "safe short cuts" that you can learn that would be time better spent if this is your goal. Do aiki principles apply even in these...yes they can since aikido is based on proper, dynamic movement.

Really I believe we are overall in agreement, and I have no problem with your post!
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Old 07-10-2005, 11:09 PM   #40
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

A tip...

One cannot do a sacrifice throw against the clinch.

I saw it last weak... Tell you what the one that did sacrifice throw had watery eyes.
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Old 07-11-2005, 10:57 AM   #41
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Can you describe what happened?

Thanks,
Ron
Quote:
Cromwell Salvatera wrote:
A tip...

One cannot do a sacrifice throw against the clinch.

I saw it last weak... Tell you what the one that did sacrifice throw had watery eyes.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-11-2005, 12:36 PM   #42
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

You really cannot do any technique if you don't control center/balance. If you are in the clinch, you probably don't have balance/center. If you have the clinch you probably do.
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Old 07-11-2005, 05:59 PM   #43
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Dead Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

The clinch; Two arms wrapped around the neck. uke moves Tori's head to the left with the left knee coming up, and so on with the right. So literally the centre is being swung left and right with knee attacks to follow up the technique.Tori can block the knee or blend with the attack to get uke's elbow up for kihon kokyu nage or ikyo(which is very hard to do) to get out of the clinch and get a better maai.

Because it is very hard to blend, dodge, or get out of the clinch from side to side considering that uke's knees are coming from the sides left and right. Tori tried to close the distance and tried to do an omote technique or shift his balance forward to topple uke backwards whilst uke is standing on one foot because the other leg is going for a knee attack.

Tori forgot that uke has good balance because he is leaning on tori's neck. Tori has only one way to go, not forward (Uke is too strong) hence backwards and do the classic jujutsu sacrifice. Tori goes back (like a backward roll) holding on uke's grab on his neck, tries to lever uke to flip forward with his own knee/leg...

Remember Uke was doing knee attacks from the clinch, now he looses his balance forward because of Tori's sacrifice. Uke lands on Tori's crutch with the right knee, the left knee on the front of Tori's thigh. In the Muay Thai clinch the elbows were down for shield and attacks, this time both elbows landed on the the sides of the solar plexus and rib area. And to put icing on the cake a falling Uke lands a forehead butt to the nose and face of tori. They (Tori and Uke) were around 6 feet tall say around 90-100 kg each.

Tell you what Crunch! Crunch! Crunch! and Pop! is what I heard. It was not a good sight.

hence no sacrifices throws on the clinch for me.
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Old 07-11-2005, 06:54 PM   #44
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Wow, good, vivid description, you had me flinching in sympathetic pain to your story.
The clinch is a difficult thing to play around with, and your timing has to be good in order to a) avoid it as its coming or b) slip out of it once its on. Once the clinch is on, the knees start flying and you have a very small window before your balance is all shook up and you're just trying to survive the ride. All you can really do is experiment with it and find what you think will work.
You don't have to be a expert in Mauy Thai to apply a pretty effective clinch. In fact, we've actually done an Aikido-esque through using the clinch itself. Think about that one, the Aikido Clinch-nage....
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Old 07-11-2005, 07:38 PM   #45
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Of course you've missed the obvious - disembowel uke with your tanto or wakazashi

For a few more serious comments:
1. I agree with the earlier comment that this is something you should be worrying about once you've got a few years of aikido under your belt

2. If you are in the clinch and the guy is kneeing you then a number of things have gone wrong up to that point.

I'm certainly no MT expert but every once in awhile I do okay from the clinch...

So there we are and I've managed to close in and lock my hands around your neck and I've got unfriendly intentions. The first thing that you have to instantly assess and control if possible is whether your elbows are inside or outside of mine, or one of each.

If my elbows are outside of yours, then I am going to be very careful about bringing my knees straight up as you are quite likely to let your same-side elbow just point straight down into my upcoming thigh and I know from experience that I don't like hitting elbows with my thigh. So if you find yourself with your elbows inside, they can be a deterent to the knees coming up the center. I've found the downside is that you give up some control of balance, I tend to get collapsed more when I'm inside and knees can come around for the kidney but quite honestly that is the least of my concerns.

If I have my elbows inside yours and I want to throw a right knee, I'll try to raise up my right elbow which will open up your ribs for me. It's a beautiful thing until you relax and give me a little bit of rotation to my right and a little bit of downward pressure (weight underside if you like) and settle your weight into the spot where my right foot was supporting my weight just before I brought it up. I've actually had some good luck with this with my elbows outside. In a clinch there is a lot of action trying to control postures and balances. In this case if you are sensitive enough and relaxed and keeping your weight down, it can be very difficult for your attacker to pick up a leg to strike.

Yes I realize that I haven't touched on balance and posture and those are also vital but I wanted to touch on how your arm position can give you some things to play with.

I've go to run to the dojo but I'll try to share a couple of posture items later

Chris

PS - the reality is that by the time someone has me in the clinch I'm pretty much done for as too many things have already gone wrong.
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Old 07-11-2005, 07:41 PM   #46
csinca
 
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Oh yeah, I've been taught that for the most part you need to have a similar grip/hand position on your uke. If you don't control their head and shoulders then they may decide to skip the clinch and opt for a hook or an elbow to your jaw (or ear which really, really hurts)

Chris
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Old 07-11-2005, 09:17 PM   #47
Tubig
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Joseph... An aikido Clinch-Nage hehehe. Man I would love to see that. Maybe that is the answer to the clinch. it is not really Aiki (you know fighting fire with fire), but if there is an aikido clinch -nage that would be excellent.
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Old 07-11-2005, 09:42 PM   #48
DustinAcuff
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

just an idea. I have a tech called ryu no agito. basically, from a two arm grab to the throat/choke you cut uke's elbow on one side and at the same time this cut is being made you cut up into uke's mandible then down along the side of the neck inward at the clavicle. the motion is almost instantaneous and renders uke completely immobile. if you continue to cut down uke goes down. possibly it could be used against a clinch.

Btw, both elbows in or one in one out is dominant in the clench. if you have your elbows out you cannot control your victim as well and they have alot more gaurd options. both in allows you to give the mighty knee straight up, alot like doing a squat and releasing. it also allows you free elbows. one in one out is about equal for both people, the main advantage is that if you are faster on the draw you can pull your victim into a leaping knee to the abdomen, chest, or maybe even head. Both out negates most elbows and your most effective knees.

Another possibilty for the aikido clinch-nage. lock one of uke's elbows straight and start tenkan into the straight elbow, make 3-4 roatations and reverse into an over the body kaiten nage...would it work?
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Old 07-11-2005, 10:09 PM   #49
Tubig
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

3/4 or 3-4 rotation?
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Old 07-11-2005, 10:30 PM   #50
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Dear Tubig,

Wrt the sutemi (sacrifice) throws... here is a tip. The straight over the top throw ala Tomoe Nage'esques is a jujutsu throw but it has a caveat and if not done properly... you will end up in a painful condition as per what you described in post # 43.

Try this little adjustment Tubig, instead of throwing uke directly over... try to throw to the side at an angle as per yoko otoshi rather than a true tomoe nage type throw, and put some power into the throw... you want the uke to drop a little further... not too near where he can get you in a newaza hold. But if you are a newaza player... then after the throw you can initiate the newaza game. And I guess for added effect... you can add a leg reap or hook as you go down to give the tori some hard time.

Tubig, all I am saying is not to give up sutemi type throw so quickly. I personally find it to be very useful when the opponents force is coming towards you or where your forward motion is hindered.

But as with all jujutsu'esque technique.. this only works if uke is caught surprised or if kuzushi is taken from uke.. if uke is anticipating your move then change to something else.

p/s... my sensei had a very simple and no nonsense way of dealing with my clinch... as I am going in, he gave me an uppercut (he did not hit me... just stopped a couple of centimeters before my chin). But then I realized he did amateur Boxing in his youth before aikido and I am no Muay Thai player.


Boon.

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