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Old 06-30-2005, 07:13 AM   #51
Bunzel
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Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

Very often when the talk falls on atemi it seems like people are discussing flow versus atemi ie. like atemi by definition ends the flow of the technique.

In Nishio sensei's Aikido the atemi supports the flow of the technique and it is "inherent" in all his Aikido movements - it is always there though it sometimes are hidden very well within the flow/movements.

Nishio sensei used to say that Aikido without atemi becomes a dance.....

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Old 06-30-2005, 07:29 AM   #52
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

Quote:
Hmm. Where's old Bruce and his secret kyusho knowledge threads these days?
www.budoseek.com. Just for a moment though...he got himself banned...again...

Ron (sigh)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 06-30-2005, 08:00 AM   #53
happysod
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Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

Quote:
like atemi by definition ends the flow of the technique.
no one has said this, what some of us have said is that inappropriate use of atemi (i.e. it's not actually contained within that bit of the technique) can disrupt flow, as can an over-emphasis on using an explicit atemi (e.g. a strike). These problems are not unique to atemi by any means, but are an easier trap to fall into as atemi are just so intrinsically satisfying to use.
Quote:
Nishio sensei used to say that Aikido without atemi becomes a dance.....
and a decent dancing partner leads very effectively thank you.

Ron, Chuck, leave it! Please do not disturb the ether with mention of the demons name
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Old 06-30-2005, 09:05 AM   #54
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

Sorry...sometimes I just loose it... I'm back now...

I never understood why people thought atemi *must* interupt the flow of the technique...sometimes it adds to the flow. Yoshinkan kihon waza shomenuchi iriminage ni uses atemi after a pivot and body change to get uke going the other way (amoung other things) and done fast it really can plow uke under, with very little 'interuption'. Early timing is another way to use atemi as a throw. The space between intention and movement on uke's part is the best place for effortless atemi that make the throw.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 06-30-2005, 06:26 PM   #55
PeterR
 
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Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
www.budoseek.com. Just for a moment though...he got himself banned...again...

Ron (sigh)
and by me no less - Bruce is the only person I have ever banned.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-01-2005, 02:07 AM   #56
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

what is aikido without an attack? a wrist grab is not an attack. It is an imobilizing technique used to restrain. Without the intent of bodily injury from uke, we have no reason to do aikido, hence why I feel you cannot do aikido without an attack. To me atemi is defined as any attack. does not have to be relegated to punches and kicks.

Also, unless nage as the abiilty to use atemi or at least the threat, then uke has no reason to enter in a reserved manner, or nor can nage interrupt the balance or speed really.

While atemi may not be used in every situation like irimi nage, or koshi nage, the premise of the uke/nage relationship requires the threat of some sort of violent action which would be an attack (atemi).
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Old 07-01-2005, 04:23 AM   #57
Nick Simpson
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Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

A while ago I had a kohai tell me that I wasnt doing iriminage correctly because when I collected his face/chin I was using atemi. I politely asked what he meant and he showed me. I was left thinking, thats not atemi: THIS is atemi! Was absolutely bizaare, especially considering that this person could not execute an effective iriminage himself. Chalk it up to 5th kyu shihan syndrome I spose...

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 07-01-2005, 07:06 AM   #58
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

Quote:
what is aikido without an attack? a wrist grab is not an attack. It is an immobilizing technique used to restrain. Without the intent of bodily injury from uke, we have no reason to do aikido, hence why I feel you cannot do aikido without an attack.
A wrist grab can certainly be an attack.

Are you saying that when my arms are being pinned behind my back, or there is some attempt to restrain in some other esoteric lock which begins with a grab, I shouldn't react because an immobilization is not an attack..? I should react only when the fist or knife is proceeding towards my now restrained body...? I'll have a lot of luck doing that when I'm already immobilized.

Likewise, if I'm holding a knife or gun pointed at at an adversary, and they or someone else decide they don't like the situation, and tries to pin my arm to my side so I can't stab and/or shoot either of them, than that is an attack and it is kosa dori or katate dori they will be using. Yes, grabs will likely be followed up with a strikes after I am restrained, but if I am already pinned in place, there isn't much that I can do about those. Likewise, they could as easily handcuff me or apply some other lasting form of restraint, which I may have no desire to want done to me.

I would try to use Aikido at the point where I feel threatened, and hopefully before I feel threatened.

Grabs are attacks. If you start treating every hand you grab as potentially having a knife, then their uses and dangers become more clear.

Rob
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Old 07-01-2005, 02:00 PM   #59
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

Quote:
Grabs are attacks. If you start treating every hand you grab as potentially having a knife, then their uses and dangers become more clear.
This is the point I was trying to make, but probably didn't do it so well. Although I did say that "without the THREAT of atemi (atemi as defined as a potentially injurious attack...whatever that may be from fist, knife, stick etc, the repositioning into a wrist lock or arm bar, ikkyo or something.).

The wrist grab would be the start of the attack...yes for sure.

you are correct, of course...you wouldn't wait for uke to get to the "point of no return".

My point is, that what matters is the threat of atemi, or injurious technique. Without it, you have a nice way to dance.
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Old 07-01-2005, 06:30 PM   #60
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
My point is, that what matters is the threat of atemi, or injurious technique. Without it, you have a nice way to dance.
I think this is an incorrect oversimplification of Aikido waza as it omits other tactical elements of the execution of effective waza such as kuzushi, which does make technique very martially usable and viable without resorting to atemi. In fact, good application of kuzushi often becomes necessary in situations where atemi fails or is limited in its ability to cause the degree of disruption required e.g. against body armor.

In this case, the absence of atemi does not automatically allow serious martial practice to degenerate into a dance. If the above were true then the same "nice way to dance" idea would also apply to Judo and other methods that may not employ much atemi, but utilise other methods of disrupting balance, body alignment and structure.

Just my take. I reserve the right to be wrong.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 07-01-2005 at 06:33 PM.

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Old 07-02-2005, 12:27 AM   #61
eyrie
 
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Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

So far the discussion has been centered around use of atemi by tori in waza. Let me postulate another perspective. Let us suppose that the clichéd reference to "aikido is 90% atemi" is reversed. i.e from uke's perspective. i.e. If there is no atemi (from uke), there is no necessity for aikido? Let us assume for the moment, that a grab (or other restraint) is a prelude to an intended atemi.

Ignatius
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Old 07-02-2005, 05:28 PM   #62
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

I agree ignatius.
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Old 07-06-2005, 09:46 AM   #63
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Lightbulb Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

Short answer: YES

An awareness of Atemi on the part of nage and uke is required for good Aikido, even if an atemi is never manifested in the technique. An atemi temi has a distinct probability of occuring, at any given time and space in a technique, depending on what uke and nage are each observing and reacting to.

That is to say, an atemi can be used in the same way as a riding crop is used on a horse by it's rider -- to encourage desired behavior:
1) With a well-trained horse, the crop never has to strike the animal, it only has to be carried by the rider -- they both know it's there.
2) With a less-trained horse, a light tap can get the horse's attention and redirect it's efforts.
3) And, with a violent, unbroken horse, a riding crop is almost completely useless -- you're just going to have to hang on for the ride, and deal with it once it's calmed down. Then see #2 or #1

And yes, this interpretation applies well from either nage's or uke's perspective -- sometimes you're the horse, sometimes the rider.


Last edited by pezalinski : 07-06-2005 at 09:53 AM.


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Old 07-19-2005, 04:37 PM   #64
samurai_kenshin
 
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Re: Is Atemi Necessary to Good Aikido?

I like to think that atemi sort of completes the technique for me. This week, sensei is asking us not to atemi on tsuki kotegaishi,a nd it totally threw off my technique! I'm now having to recalibrate myself to an atemi-less kotegaishi. It's really interesting because now I have more opportunity to corect other problems with my technique. I've also noticed that since I've been gone, my randori has been destroyed...

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