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Old 09-12-2014, 12:04 PM   #426
Chris Li
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
and your point is.
No comments at all, it's exactly what it is.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-12-2014, 12:06 PM   #427
Mert Gambito
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Lessee -- if 1 out of a 100 get it using those methods-- that's less than 1% successful (i.e. -- not "quite").

I'd say that's a margin crying out to be beaten.
Happy to restate/re-phrase again: only, say, 1 out of every 100 people studying an art are expressly imparted or pursue the adoption of an IT methodology. And it's that ~1/100 of a given population of martial artists that has successfully transmitted IT throughout the ages.

But today with proven IT methodologies available to the public, and far less filtering by the knowledge holders, will the success rates of the modern metaphor-based IT models, or Erick's model once it's similarly in play, be any better than the poor results historically attributed to P90X, becoming a multi-millionaire (let alone just starting and maintaining a business for multiple years), becoming a professional athlete vs. a weekend warrior, or any other human achievement that requires a relatively high degree of time investment, effort, talent and discipline? It doesn't mean the models and precedents are lacking: it's just that people are people, and not everyone has what it takes.

I don't think it'll take another few hundred years to vet your model. As has been previously suggested, let's check back in a few, say 5 - 10.

Last edited by Mert Gambito : 09-12-2014 at 12:15 PM.

Mert
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Old 09-12-2014, 12:28 PM   #428
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Second -- "expanding in all directions at once " -- also again not wrong -- and again, confusingly conflated.
if you have brought in your inflatable doll, then the explanation would be quite simple and apparent. Mike Sigman did and we all got it. we also went out and bought our. there was a shortage of inflatable doll in the south for awhile. and it affected the training of a few IP brethrens and set them back for a few years.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 09-12-2014, 12:39 PM   #429
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
But today with proven IT methodologies available to the public, and far less filtering by the knowledge holders, will the success rates of the modern metaphor-based IT models, or Erick's model once it's similarly in play, be any better than the poor results historically attributed to P90X, becoming a multi-millionaire (let alone just starting and maintaining a business for multiple years), becoming a professional athlete vs. a weekend warrior, or any other human achievement that requires a relatively high degree of time investment, effort, talent and discipline? It doesn't mean the models and precedents are lacking: it's just that people are people, and not everyone has what it takes.
One can resort to the 10,000 hour rule in such situations: it supposedly takes 10,000 hours to become an expert in anything.

Five hours of training / week = 250 hours /year = 40 years. (50 week years because the math is easier and everyone takes *some* time off.) Or 20 years at 10 hours/week. Or 10 years at 20 hours/week. Which starts to show the difference between the people universally acknowledged as "good" and everyone else: ridiculously huge numbers of training hours.

How many of the million plus aikidoka out there have actually put in 10,000 hours of training? And how many of *those* have achieved some level of mastery of these skills? I don't know, but that's the kind of information you would need to start seriously evaluating the teaching methodology.

Katherine
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:14 PM   #430
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Whew! Erick, if it took you as long to explain it as it did for me to read it, it's a wonder that you guys had any time to practice it!

Seriously, I think your point is well made, namely that there are numerous ways of looking a what's actually going on. And I don't think that's a bad thing. People learn stuff in all sorts of ways and if someone can demonstrate a certain thing then who cares what imagery was used in the teaching?
Really, all I wanted to do was have a excuse for the pretty pictures ....

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:27 PM   #431
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
No comments at all, it's exactly what it is.
It is, isn't it ?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-12-2014, 09:37 PM   #432
Mert Gambito
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
One can resort to the 10,000 hour rule in such situations: it supposedly takes 10,000 hours to become an expert in anything.

Five hours of training / week = 250 hours /year = 40 years. (50 week years because the math is easier and everyone takes *some* time off.) Or 20 years at 10 hours/week. Or 10 years at 20 hours/week. Which starts to show the difference between the people universally acknowledged as "good" and everyone else: ridiculously huge numbers of training hours.

How many of the million plus aikidoka out there have actually put in 10,000 hours of training? And how many of *those* have achieved some level of mastery of these skills? I don't know, but that's the kind of information you would need to start seriously evaluating the teaching methodology.
Granted. That said, the assumption is that today there are modern flavors of the metaphor-based models, and also Erick's model, that are designed to get us there faster. So, let's hope that these models can take that other rule of thumb, the 30-year-plan to attain demonstrable IP/IS, and shave the window down to, say, 10 years. A lot of folks are devoting at least 6 - 7 hours/week to metaphor-based IT (I suspect Erick is pursuing his training with at least that amount of time commitment as well), so let's keep the outer check-back date at 10 years.

Mert
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Old Yesterday, 05:59 AM   #433
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Training hours: I recently spoke to a Japanese guy I was training with in Japan. He said he trained 15 times or so a week. Five times on Saturdays etc. etc. And classes range from 1 to 1.5 hours. He is certainly not the norm, but there are people out there doing that. In my prime I had one training session per day, sometimes two. But many people continue their training while 'washing the dishes', 'walking up the stairs', and so on. I personally think such to be very important. You have to take it beyond the dojo and stick it into more of what you normally do. 'Normal' people think you are mad. Maybe you/we are. But if you are truly keen, you just cannot help yourself :-)

Today, for example, I walked up a steep hill and placed every step carefully and concentrated on this and that. I have, I think, become able to make it 'un-noticeable'. Is it useful? I think so - otherwise I wouldn't do it. Am I mad. Absolutely. But it all counts. Indeed, such is as important, if not more so, than rolling around in the dojo.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : Yesterday at 06:04 AM.

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Old Yesterday, 08:08 AM   #434
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
Jon,

You made the statement. I was merely asking you to state (back up) whom you believe meet that criteria. You mentioned three aikido practitioners only 7-12 more to go......If not, then why make such a broad based comment? I realize that this does not affect my training after all this is a discussion board and we are discussing things.

Train Hard,
Jason
Nope, that's my three that meet the criteria. I am trying to be polite to give everyone the opportunity to introspectively compile there own list and realize, no matter how extensive they make it, it is a very small number compared to the 1-1.5 million people estimated to train aikido. Hell, make a top 100 list, the transmission rate is still gonna be dismal. Aikido is not koryu - there is not supposed to be some double-secret scroll that controls the transmission rate.

And it does affect your training because you can improve faster if you know where to go, with whom to train and how to train outside of the dojo. And it affects my training because if I can put hands on you, and you feel good, you can elevate my training experience and we both improve. And it affects Erick's training, because I train with Erick and he can put hands on me and I can say, "man, you gotta grab Jason because he is great and he has some tips that will elevate your training."

My point was to illustrate that aikido, as an art, struggles under its current teaching model to produce aikido people of exceptional quality who transcend the art into the larger (world-wide) community of martial artists. In the post in which I made my comment, I was using it as an example of an external observation of where the art is. I know there are some aikido people who could care less what is the larger perception of aikido. And I know there are some aikido people who could care less whether their practice can transcend the art.

Why is it OK to have such low transmission rates in aikido? Aikido is a gendai art, open to the public with transparency in teaching, right? Every test is open book, right? Our leaders want us to see everything they do and inherit the education, right? 30 years to become an expert, right? At some point, when we critically evaluate these numbers how can you not possibly say, "Really, 30 years? Isn't that a bit long?" Talk about drinking kool aid...

Most of us train what we want. We will pay top-dollar to see sensei fancy pants and then proceed to spend the entire seminar doing the exact techniques we do in the dojo. Often in front of sensei. But, we'll get a stamp and the opportunity to claim that we trained with sensei. In fact, we were on the mat when sensei was on the mat and that was the extent of our training. Our idea was broke when we stepped on the mat, we did not learn anything from sensei while we were on the mat and we leave with a sense of validation because sensei did not explicitly say, "you are doing this wrong." There are some instructors who will kindly say, "that is not what I showed. Why don't you try doing what I showed, just for kicks? After all, you are paying me."

Yes, I am criticizing aikido. With these kinds of numbers, it baffles me that we are not open to any new type of teaching model that would improve the transmission rates while preserving the core of what we do (aiki). If you can make a solid claim that learning aikido wearing fake mustaches improves the transmission rates of learning the stuff, I am going look seriously at handing out mustaches in class. I think, we, as students should constantly look to improve our competency while shortening the learning curve. I want more time to be excellent at the end of my life and I want to find those people who will help me accomplish that.

Last edited by jonreading : Yesterday at 08:10 AM.

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Old Yesterday, 10:05 AM   #435
Cliff Judge
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Aikido is not koryu - there is not supposed to be some double-secret scroll that controls the transmission rate.
It isn't that there is a "double-secret scroll that controls the transmission rate" ... though the general thought among the IP community seems to believe that this is actually how Daito ryu worked ... it is that the method of transmission is part of what is transmitted, and this is almost always a hands-on teaching method that precludes the performance-artsy seminar which is a hallmark of Aikido and derives from Takeda's teaching method.

Why should we expect or want anything else? You are searching outside of Aikido for something it never really had. We never had a better method of transmission. Have you ever thought Aikido is not at all about transmission? Ueshiba could certainly have come up with something if that was what he wanted. He apparently spent most of his time waving a stick around with a crazy look in his eyes, and the most rigorous method of transmission comes from Saito, the man who hung around watching him, making sure he didn't hurt himself.

If anybody invents anything better it will be their own innovation.
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Old Yesterday, 10:38 AM   #436
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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It isn't that there is a "double-secret scroll that controls the transmission rate" ... though the general thought among the IP community seems to believe that this is actually how Daito ryu worked ... it is that the method of transmission is part of what is transmitted, and this is almost always a hands-on teaching method that precludes the performance-artsy seminar which is a hallmark of Aikido and derives from Takeda's teaching method.

Why should we expect or want anything else? You are searching outside of Aikido for something it never really had. We never had a better method of transmission. Have you ever thought Aikido is not at all about transmission? Ueshiba could certainly have come up with something if that was what he wanted. He apparently spent most of his time waving a stick around with a crazy look in his eyes, and the most rigorous method of transmission comes from Saito, the man who hung around watching him, making sure he didn't hurt himself.

If anybody invents anything better it will be their own innovation.
Personal responsibility and innovation should be important aspects of our training.

My point was that aikido is not supposed to have secrets, as opposed to the many militarized combat arts that have some control on the transmission of the skill set. Let's keep the focus there. In fact, John Stevens wrote a book dispelling them all, even if there were any. So, if we have a straight-forward teaching methodology with no hidden training, why should it take three decades to learn what is aiki? You're right, aikido's mainstream teaching methodology that came from the Aikikai does not appear to prioritize transmission. Sure, we shared aikido with more people and we hit some dynamite with some great individuals. Based upon those numbers, I would agree with you - aikido is not about transmission, its about propagation. And aikido has successfully propagated itself.

So if the popular aikido curriculum is not about transmission, it is possible that it did not have aiki in it. If some aikido people did not actually learn aiki, then they would not be able to transmit it... Which is why I am differentiating those who have aiki from those who do aikido. Is it outside of aikido? Maybe, but only if you limit aikido to our small technical curriculum. That's not my aikido.

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Old Yesterday, 11:12 AM   #437
Cliff Judge
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Personal responsibility and innovation should be important aspects of our training.

My point was that aikido is not supposed to have secrets, as opposed to the many militarized combat arts that have some control on the transmission of the skill set. Let's keep the focus there. In fact, John Stevens wrote a book dispelling them all, even if there were any. So, if we have a straight-forward teaching methodology with no hidden training, why should it take three decades to learn what is aiki? You're right, aikido's mainstream teaching methodology that came from the Aikikai does not appear to prioritize transmission. Sure, we shared aikido with more people and we hit some dynamite with some great individuals. Based upon those numbers, I would agree with you - aikido is not about transmission, its about propagation. And aikido has successfully propagated itself.

So if the popular aikido curriculum is not about transmission, it is possible that it did not have aiki in it. If some aikido people did not actually learn aiki, then they would not be able to transmit it... Which is why I am differentiating those who have aiki from those who do aikido. Is it outside of aikido? Maybe, but only if you limit aikido to our small technical curriculum. That's not my aikido.
You can hardly blame the Aikikai for not transmitting "Aiki" when this is a term you have appropriated and applied to a body skill that was never transmitted in the art, ever, in the first place.

But maybe you are supposed to do that - come up with your own ideas, figure out your own stuff? Maybe we only come up with a small number of folks with flashy seminar skills each generation, who knows what everybody else is coming up with?
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Old Yesterday, 12:09 PM   #438
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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You can hardly blame the Aikikai for not transmitting "Aiki" when this is a term you have appropriated and applied to a body skill that was never transmitted in the art, ever, in the first place.
This is simply not true. There are Aikido lineages where these body skills were transmitted explicitly (which they refer to as Aiki btw), and continue to be taught to this day.
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Old Yesterday, 01:08 PM   #439
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Why is this important to you? Why is my list important to your training? Other that to start a tangent? Or, maybe solicit me to make an awkward list that could possibly cause some people to bristle at the notion of being excluded? Saotome Sensei, Ikeda Sensei and Endo Sensei are my list; I would throw in Tissier sensei since he often represents aikido in international events. There are other great people out there, but do not meet either the world platform recognition or do aikido.
Dear Jon,
Run out of names , have we Jon?May I point out that you made the statement about nos of people you think are class.Others seemingly do not meet the World? platform recognition.Who are these people?Apart from me.Cheers, Joe.
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Old Yesterday, 01:49 PM   #440
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Who are these people?Apart from me.Cheers, Joe.
You're in a class by yourself Joe.

Ron

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Old Yesterday, 02:07 PM   #441
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Joshua Landin wrote: View Post
This is simply not true. There are Aikido lineages where these body skills were transmitted explicitly (which they refer to as Aiki btw), and continue to be taught to this day.
Let's hear some specifics.
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Old Yesterday, 03:16 PM   #442
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Let's hear some specifics.
Shortly before he passed away the late Rinjiro Shirata did in fact teach a few students several exercises meant to train internal power and aiki. I imagine these are similar to the exercises that the Aikikai had banned from being taught at Hombu dojo. Some of these students are Westerners and are on this board, so they could offer more details here if they wish. However I would actually advise them not to do so.
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Old Yesterday, 03:30 PM   #443
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Joshua Landin wrote: View Post
Shortly before he passed away the late Rinjiro Shirata did in fact teach a few students several exercises meant to train internal power and aiki. I imagine these are similar to the exercises that the Aikikai had banned from being taught at Hombu dojo. Some of these students are Westerners and are on this board, so they could offer more details here if they wish. However I would actually advise them not to do so.
Thanks. Yes, of course, we'll take their silence on the matter to be their complete and utter agreement with you.
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Old Yesterday, 03:58 PM   #444
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Thanks. Yes, of course, we'll take their silence on the matter to be their complete and utter agreement with you.
You're welcome.
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Old Yesterday, 03:58 PM   #445
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Joshua Landin wrote: View Post
Some of these students are Westerners and are on this board, so they could offer more details here if they wish. However I would actually advise them not to do so.
Quote:
Jon Reading wrote:
My point was that aikido is not supposed to have secrets... Let's keep the focus there.
Hmmm...

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Old Yesterday, 07:46 PM   #446
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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You can hardly blame the Aikikai for not transmitting "Aiki" when this is a term you have appropriated and applied to a body skill that was never transmitted in the art, ever, in the first place.
I can't agree here. The thing I am describing I have felt in Ikeda, and in Hooker in ASU lineage, Ledyard also, I've also felt it in Parker Sensei in Yokosuka in the mid-90's. I've also seen it in performances by Shioda, Saotome, Sagawa, and others. The differences among them -- by far-- outweigh the similarities of impression, manner, accomplishment and preferences for application. But the reality and identity of the thing is evident behind appearances.

I do not believe it is actually "missing" in the transmission. I believe many have missed it. It has been overlooked or orphaned in emphasis of instruction and recognized and addressed on a totally implicit and ad hoc basis. This seems to be the case in the three lineages I have any extensive experience of and the one other (Yoshinkan) I have some passing familiarity with. Given Sagawa's strong and unvarnished caution about being unable to teach it before anyone was ready to perceive it themselves -- it may be understandable. I do not believe it to be inherent or inevitable.

But by putting the more loose-limbed, flowing arcs of movement into icky-ewwww-other-than-'internal'-and-to-be-avoided-at-all-costs categories -- something is lost. Yes, I get that the internal aiki "in-me" "intent"(stress) management part is really more of a pedagogical emphasis and not a unitary goal -- but the more prejudicial stance above seems to take the fore.

I am more interested in the transitions -- between standing and being pushed,attacked or hit, and between the regimes of internal stress management and external action. Things happen there we have little conscious control over. Whether immediately loosening or stiffening in response -- both of which are naturally instinctive variations -- we must learn manage what we happen to do -- far more than what we choose to do.

If I were to sum up the relationship, I would say that the internal aspect of the art is the spiral flows of stress (intent, if you prefer) within the body(ies) that become the spiral flows of movement when the lines of stress fall outside the "extreme fiber" (in materials terminology) of structure and begin moving the body(ies) and limbs around from unbalanced stress or moments. Ikeda certainly speaks of and arrived at it by making external movement infinitesimal -- which seems just back-to-front of the IP/IS training paradigm.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old Yesterday, 07:49 PM   #447
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Joshua Landin wrote: View Post
... the exercises that the Aikikai had banned from being taught at Hombu dojo....
This has been alluded to before -- but no one has ever noted what they were. Do you know?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old Yesterday, 09:09 PM   #448
Cliff Judge
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I can't agree here. The thing I am describing I have felt in Ikeda, and in Hooker in ASU lineage, Ledyard also, I've also felt it in Parker Sensei in Yokosuka in the mid-90's. I've also seen it in performances by Shioda, Saotome, Sagawa, and others. The differences among them -- by far-- outweigh the similarities of impression, manner, accomplishment and preferences for application. But the reality and identity of the thing is evident behind appearances.
I am being specific about what transmission entails, and I believe Jon, Joshua and I are on the same page: something that was actually formally taught by Ueshiba to his students, with the intention on Ueshiba's part that it be integral to the rest of his art. For me, this doesn't add up. Either the methods never really existed, or Ueshiba himself didn't think they should be a part of Aikido.

I think the practitioners today who are highly skilled all discovered their skills on their own.
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Old Yesterday, 10:10 PM   #449
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I do not believe it is actually "missing" in the transmission. I believe many have missed it.
I agree with this assessment.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I do not believe it to be inherent or inevitable.
I do believe it is inherent to varying degrees in everyone. That said, I do not believe that it is inevitable that everyone will recognize it for what it is. At some point, or perhaps many points, along a student's path a leap of faith is required to get over the hump of self doubt in order to see it and be able to use it. Unless that leap is taken the student will stay shackled to reliance on learning from without and turn aside from the internal "teacher" we all possess. In that light,

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Sagawa's strong and unvarnished caution about being unable to teach it before anyone was ready to perceive it themselves...
is readily understandable.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
-- we must learn manage what we happen to do -- far more than what we choose to do.
Yeah, coordinate mind and body.

Ron

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Old Yesterday, 11:21 PM   #450
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I am being specific about what transmission entails, and I believe Jon, Joshua and I are on the same page: something that was actually formally taught by Ueshiba to his students, with the intention on Ueshiba's part that it be integral to the rest of his art. For me, this doesn't add up. Either the methods never really existed, or Ueshiba himself didn't think they should be a part of Aikido.

I think the practitioners today who are highly skilled all discovered their skills on their own.
On what basis do you conclude this?

The uchi deshi got a lot of one-on-one time with Ueshiba. Heck, that's what being an uchi deshi meant. So I'm not sure anyone who wasn't there is in a position to say what was or was not taught to his closest students.

Katherine
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