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Old 06-04-2017, 02:49 PM   #1
senshincenter
 
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The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Hello All,

My experience has led me to hold that the true problem of "practicality" or "effectiveness," etc., is not architectural in nature. It is, and always has been, a problem of mind. Contemporary views of martial arts have over the last several decades now sought to address the problem of application through architecture, or, more accurately, through a discourse touting the simplification of architecture. As such, generic kickboxing and wrestling moves have see a greater appreciation among the martial arts. This is especially true when such tactical architectures are used under what has come to be seen as live conditions. This is turn is always considered an advancement or an evolution of the martial arts. As a result, arts like Aikido, which does not typically make use of kickboxing strategies or wrestling moves, have either become fodder for the aforementioned discourse and its proponents, or have become populated by practitioners that want to bring in kickboxing and wrestling moves into the art. Either way, people are still working with the mistruth that live application is an architectural problem.

I see a big problem with this: The apparent effectiveness of the aforementioned architectures do not stem from any sort of structural simplification. Meaning, they are not easier to do and thus more effective to do in live or "real" environments because they are less complicated. Rather, the apparent applicability of these architectures stem from a radical manipulation of the environment that is being used. This radically manipulated environment is by historical standards completely delusional from a combative point of view. That is to say that the applicability and effectiveness of these architectures would appear equally difficult to apply as those architectures that are commonly denounced when you expand the given environment to include, for example, weapons, multiple attackers, and to exclude, for example, dueling mentalities, and weight categories - elements obviously a part of a combat environment. I am proposing that it is this radical manipulation of the training environment that artificially reduces the need for a mind capable of producing spontaneous application. This is why the results of the given environment are so match-driven and stylistic determinable.

Yes, there are those within said training environments employing said architectures spontaneously, those that have developed the mind for spontaneous application, but they are few and far between, and we designate them as "artists" or "masters" even within the accompanying pseudo-science rhetoric that goes with this type of thinking. Outside of these rare individuals, you have folks simply applying form against form in an arena where the radical manipulation of the "testing" environment has made it possible for a favored right cross or takedown to work (vs habitually throwing a right cross to a person that has 50 or 75 pounds on you, or that is armed with a knife or could be, etc.).

A simple experiment to run for gaining some insight into this position, for those not in Aikido but perhaps practicing one of the arts that favor Ne-Waza, is to film two equally sized and skilled practitioners rolling. Note how smooth and consistent the exercise is with the art's given understanding of application and the combative environment. Next, film them again but given one player a training knife. Note the differences - as their will be many: breath holding, muscling, fear, mental fixation, loss of fluidity, etc. Next, try the same players but do not let one player know whether or not the second player is armed - have the training knife either concealed or not present at all but have it known that it could be concealed. Again, note the difference from the first roll. A next experiment is to now do the roll but having the player wielding the knife be significantly stronger and heavier than the other player. Again, note the differences from the control observation.

That said, I don't want to say that architectures don't count - they do. I also am not saying that environmental manipulation is the whole of the problem. Environmental manipulation is a part of every training. There is no way to get around it. However, I am saying that architectures alone do not bring about spontaneous application. I am also saying that neither will kokyu or aiki, etc. There is a gap between form, the things of form, and the reconciliation of form, and right in the middle of that gap, we can say, is the mind.

For example, we can run the same experiment mentioned above in Aikido, using a Jiyu Waza format. Like in the dueling arts, we see a radical manipulation of the testing environment when it comes to Jiyu Waza as it is commonly practiced today. However, Jiyu Waza is our Aikido environment, I would propose, for cultivating the right mind for spontaneous application. While "Jiyu" can be translated as "free," most of our Jiyu Waza training actually comes with great restrictions and predeterminations and as a result actually favors forms and styles over the abandonment and freeing of oneself from form and style. Usually, in Aikido Jiyu Waza the attack is prescribed (two-hand shoulder grab, shomenuchi, one-attacker-at-a-time, no countering, etc.) and known, and the response itself is also predetermined: Kokyu Nage, strike the chin, shikko under the knees, etc. So, try and change it up. Run your control group: Have two Aikidoka of equal size and skill do Jiyu Waza. Provide no other instructions than that. Note your observations. You will again see an apparently smooth application of the arts techniques and concepts. Next, tell the Uke he/she can do any attack, since, after all, it is Jiyu Waza. If you want, you can make it a third experiment or add it in here and have the Uke also encouraged to counter and to continue attacks. Note your observations. You will start to see departures from the art's ideals, both architecturally and conceptually. Like above, you will see fear, breath holding, hesitation, muscling, forcing technique, resisting, fixation, fear, etc. Now, add the knife. (Side note: Most uke will themselves become fixated on the knife and forget all their other weapons and their availability. You will likely have to remind them that they are doing Jiyu Waza.) Note your observations. Here, while Aikidoka may fair generally better than someone trying for the first time to ground-fight a knife wielding attacker, you are still going to see large departures from the conceptual consistency see in the first observation. The degree to which you see these things will be heavily dependent upon the training capacity of you chose uke. Meaning, the uke that simply steps in with tsuki and goes right into kote-gaeshi ukemi out of habit or cultural appropriation will simply produce a form-favored training environment and thus not reveal the issue the mind plays. Therefore, be sure to repeatedly reply your uke that they are doing Jiyu Waza. For all of these experiments, I recommend you go slow. Going slow reveals, I find, even more the issue of mind, as it adds the problem of timing to the problem of mind in more obvious ways than going fast does.

This experiment shows that while the control observation demonstrated artistic conceptual consistency, the following observations moved one further and further from that consistency. The difference, I am proposing, is not in the architectures themselves, otherwise why would they have succeeded under more controlled conditions? Rather, the difference, and the difficulty of application is in the mind's incapacity (negatively speaking) to move beyond and outside of form. Weird: Shu, Ha, Ri.

Respectfully: For those of you that trained with the Founder's students in the early days, how much mind training, and/or Jiyu Waza training and application did you do under their guidance? Is it the same as now, where Kihon Waza plays such a dominant role? Did you ever hear from that last generation of Osensei's students how much time their own training dedicated to the mind (i.e. reconciling form, etc.) and to Jiyu Waza Osensei? Did they divide their training up like now, having the same huge priority given to Kihon Waza? I'm asking because this is what is on Wikipedia now for Takemusu Aiki: "Takemusu (武産?) was the concept developed by Morihei Ueshiba of how the ultimate martial art should be, how his aikido should be, an art which may harmonize all living beings and free techniques could be spontaneously executed. In his latest years, Ueshiba developed the more spiritual aspects of his art and even adopted the name Takemusu Tsunemori, under which he left many paintings and poems."

If anyone wants to film and show their observations with the above experiments, that would be greatly appreciated. Or just sharing them - all good too. In good faith, here is some of this training that we do regularly:

https://youtu.be/t5o0kA94vOA

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-05-2017, 02:17 PM   #2
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Hi David, you make some excellent points here. I don’t have time for detailed response, but I have to fully support the idea that most people are not adaptable enough. One of the core precepts in Seishin Aikido is spontaneous adaptability. Our Jiyu Waza (not sure how everyone else does it) rarely has any fixed attack or defense. Often there will be an underling principle to focus on, accepting the attack (what others call blending), a specific type of parry (then slip to whatever works), find the defect in structure, let uke enter etc. Attacks are rarely single strikes or grabs, not typically any faster.

We also embrace the reality of nonstandard spontaneous technique. “well it was something in between Shio Nage and Kote Gaishe, but that is where the Kuzushi and relative body mechanics flowed”. The benefit I have seen from this, is the spontaneous eruption of things not specifically practiced. A sacrifice throw in the wild, body throws that some art may have a name for but I don’t, Sankyo taken off the bicep and an expansion in the domain of the atemi-verse (knees, elbows, and hip checks oh my).

An Aiki body integrates well with this approach, but let’s leave that can of worms for another time.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:29 AM   #3
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

In our school, we often talk of putting the round peg in the round hole. (The reason that you have so many throws and pins in Aikido is that there are so many different sizes and shapes of holes that each attack provides - based on all the many variables present.)

During normal practice, the role of uke is to then attack (and continue attacking) in a manner that generates the proper 'hole' for the 'peg' (technique) that we agree to practice inserting.

And in jiyu waza and randori, there is simply no longer this agreement. After an initial evasion (with uke continuing to pursue), nage must 'see' (or sense) the hole that was inevitably created and 'insert the proper peg'.

The ultimate lesson, of course, is that nage can't simply decide in advance what peg she wishes to insert, because it is guaranteed that uke cannot read her mind to create the corresponding hole.

Last edited by bothhandsclapping : 06-11-2017 at 09:33 AM.

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
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Old 06-12-2017, 02:04 PM   #4
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

I feel like I am offering the same thought to every other post on this forum, but it cannot be stressed enough: the only way to become adept at spontaneous application is through proper training. Go train, then train again, then train some more. It won't happen by reading books or articles or watching videos or watching other more skilled aikidoka in class.
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Old 06-12-2017, 04:36 PM   #5
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

In other art forms, part of learning to be able to perform spontaneously is to train the skills expected. Everyone who plays music plays scales. All writers know their ABCs, grammar, and spelling. Chefs all learn basic knife work, ingredients, and techniques. Painters know what colors to mix to obtain a color. Fashion designers know how to sew.

When I do teach jiyuwaza skills, it drives me nuts to have a student who wants to go freestyle but doesn't get their hands up in a good ikkyo-undo, doesn't get off the line, and doesn't keep good whole body alignment. Most of the time, the issue seems to be that core exercises for developing these skills were seen as silly garbage. So, I try to communicate what makes exercises meaningful.

I did come from a group where we started with one attacker jiyuwaza on tests, then two. I see some tests where people are given four attackers, but everyone in the room can clearly tell the student couldn't handle two. Again, building up and embracing more basic work to grow into senior skills.
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Old 06-12-2017, 05:12 PM   #6
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

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Josh Brown wrote: View Post
I feel like I am offering the same thought to every other post on this forum, but it cannot be stressed enough: the only way to become adept at spontaneous application is through proper training. Go train, then train again, then train some more. It won't happen by reading books or articles or watching videos or watching other more skilled aikidoka in class.
Spontaneity: "yes" to proper training and "yes" that it can't come from books and videos, but "not enough" when it comes to mere repetition.

We've all seen plenty of 2nd, 3rd and 4th dans who are constantly bogged down by the need to scheme and plan. They may scheme and plan faster than a 1st kyu, and they look somewhat spontaneous, but any astute observer can see the wheels grinding away. And from my experience, if you haven't reconciled the nature and limitations of scheming and planning by 3rd dan, it just ain't gonna happen.

And so, the purpose of jiyu waza and randori should not be the simple development of faster scheming and faster planning, but it should be to make the experience 'painful' enough (stressful enough?) to convince students to just let go.

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
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Old 06-12-2017, 10:04 PM   #7
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

I consider myself to be lucky having done Judo at the start, and then Tomiki Aikido for ten years (alongside Aikikai). The randomness of Randori is key. The thing I cringe at the most is when people in Aikido are expected to do Jyuwaza like they do the kata. It is quite common, yet totally ridiculous. People do not seem to be able to escape from kata, even in so called ' free-style'. Judo is too far the freestyle -- Aikido is too far the kata-style. But at the end of the day - kata is not the purpose and neither is freestyle. The purpose is to learn aiki. Kata / freestyle ... whatever you do ... the purpose of it is to learn aiki. If you don't have the correct aim you will just walk around the mountain in a circle and not ascend even the slightest.

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Old 06-14-2017, 08:03 PM   #8
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
We've all seen plenty of 2nd, 3rd and 4th dans who are constantly bogged down by the need to scheme and plan. They may scheme and plan faster than a 1st kyu, and they look somewhat spontaneous, but any astute observer can see the wheels grinding away. And from my experience, if you haven't reconciled the nature and limitations of scheming and planning by 3rd dan, it just ain't gonna happen.

And so, the purpose of jiyu waza and randori should not be the simple development of faster scheming and faster planning, but it should be to make the experience 'painful' enough (stressful enough?) to convince students to just let go.
Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
The randomness of Randori is key. The thing I cringe at the most is when people in Aikido are expected to do Jyuwaza like they do the kata. It is quite common, yet totally ridiculous.
So, what I have taught and seen to work even for rank beginners.

First, "monkey see-monkey do" is not just a nursery phrase. In the primate brain there is a powerful system of unconscious mirroring in the motor cortex of movements that are seen being done by another. The subsystems that cause one to do the action seen are activated as though you are doing it -- but the action is usually inhibited from triggering the motor cascade.

This is actually built in to the canonical waza -- though it is little recognized. So, for example, ikkyo commences by basically doing exactly what the attacker is doing. Ditto many of the waza to a tsuki. etc. Yokomenuchi etc. It is prominent in the usual curriculum.

Training should emphasize fundamental body movement (Aiki Taiso) -- and deploy that in various waza configurations --once the action is commenced with imitative engagement. In working on sente, the teacher should initially seek to enhance the initiation of imitative movement rather than planning. Then the application of irimi-tenkan movement in aiki causes the action to flow into a path that generally frames a set of related waza.

So in beginning action in imitation, the student is allowing to happen what is already happening in their brain, though they were unaware of it. The latency of the resulting action is reduced to the shortest time possible. The student should be told that beginning in strict imitation is protective, and be shown this (it is relatively straightforward), and that simply committing to move in imitation without trying to "think" about what is being imitated will work-- if they let it happen. Then the application of that can be refined in the uses of aiki as this is developed in the aiki taiso.

With some time in this mode of training the strictly imitative response gets shorter and shorter, and the"off ramp" into creative action (vice planned technique) becomes ever more immediate. It also impresses the student sooner that the canonical waza (and the many, many variant forms between them) are merely the results of engaged action with the correct disposition of body and mind in aiki-- and not plans of action by which they ought to engage.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:24 AM   #9
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
This is actually built in to the canonical waza -- though it is little recognized. So, for example, ikkyo commences by basically doing exactly what the attacker is doing. Ditto many of the waza to a tsuki. etc. Yokomenuchi etc. It is prominent in the usual curriculum.
This is not the way ikkyo whas done originally .
Shomen uchi ikkyo is initiated by tori, who applicates atemi to ukes face.
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Old 06-15-2017, 06:15 AM   #10
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

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This is not the way ikkyo whas done originally .
Shomen uchi ikkyo is initiated by tori, who applicates atemi to ukes face.
Well not really although yes that is how it is shown in Budo Renshu AND how I do it about half the time since it is the first technique of Shodokan's Goshin no kata BUT I don't ever think it was restricted to that version enjoyable though it may be.

To the topic at hand the main problem shifting jiyu waza from stilted to the spontaneous (where you want to be) is the mind set of tori. It is very easy to fall into the trap of with the next attack I will do x. This is not completely a bad thing but eventually tori must make it a given that there is no pre-conception or pre-condition. At Shodokan Honbu there is a huge calligraphy of mushin mugamae, literally no mind no stance. This is not just something that magically appears with experience but must be cultivated.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:38 AM   #11
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

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In other art forms, part of learning to be able to perform spontaneously is to train the skills expected. Everyone who plays music plays scales. All writers know their ABCs, grammar, and spelling. Chefs all learn basic knife work, ingredients, and techniques. Painters know what colors to mix to obtain a color. Fashion designers know how to sew.

When I do teach jiyuwaza skills, it drives me nuts to have a student who wants to go freestyle but doesn't get their hands up in a good ikkyo-undo, doesn't get off the line, and doesn't keep good whole body alignment. Most of the time, the issue seems to be that core exercises for developing these skills were seen as silly garbage. So, I try to communicate what makes exercises meaningful.
Couldn't agree more. The problem is, how do you communicate this? How do you communicate it with a beginner in any field? You can't understand differential equations without fluency in basic mathematics; the difference is that a math newbie doesn't look at diff eq and say, "Cool, I wanna do THAT!", but they can look at a randori vid on youtube and decide that that's what they want to do. So how do you get them to understand the necessity for becoming fluent in the basics?
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:53 PM   #12
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Philosophically, all sound points, but what do you actually do to cultivate and/or transmit this skill within yourself or another? How often do you do such practices? Yes, Kihon is integral, but Kihon alone is more a hinderance to such cultivations than it is an aid - as others have said or hinted. Can anyone else share any video of the practices they use outside of kihon development with an explanation of what we are to focus in on?

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:07 PM   #13
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

How to train spontaneity:
Example - Jo
For me - kata is just a library of stuff to draw on and not an end unto itself.
For Jo training, by myself, my ultimate is free-fighting. That is my aim and has been for a long time. No one has that aim (that I have ever seen).
There are three ways to hold the jo (not counting one-handed). Both hands fingers down, then one up one down & the reverse. We never do both hands fingers up (except for bowing). No one breaks it down like this. Rationally. No one.
Then - imagine an attack from say, 11 O'clock. Like Yokomen. What can I do from each of those hand positions - which is best? We have 8 directions - try them all, within practicality. Then, try 12 O'clock. Go all the way around the clock. Try all the 8 directions - avoidance and attack. Start with defence. Start with attack. No more than 1; 1-2; or 1-2-3 moves - then finish. Try different moves stolen from kata. That is the essence of my own personal system. Nothing to remember. Just lots to think about and practice. If you find a like-minded partner - you can have a lot of fun. It is random, yet, it is not. Rules develop - intuitively. And anyone can start it right now. Once you start - kata is instantly redundant.

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Old 06-15-2017, 01:38 PM   #14
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

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So how do you get them to understand the necessity for becoming fluent in the basics?
Logical resistance which, once the basics are mastered, can be easily overcome, is a good starting point.Some students catch on quickly, some never make the connection (even when it's verbally reinforced).

Ron

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Old 06-15-2017, 07:07 PM   #15
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

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Philosophically, all sound points, but what do you actually do to cultivate and/or transmit this skill within yourself or another? How often do you do such practices? Yes, Kihon is integral, but Kihon alone is more a hinderance to such cultivations than it is an aid - as others have said or hinted. Can anyone else share any video of the practices they use outside of kihon development with an explanation of what we are to focus in on?
No video, but I have a quasi-program that seems to be received well. In most classes I start with a single tai sabaki -- often with an initial aiki taiso exercise that dwells on the structural fundamentals of that movement. Then I carry the students through numerous variations of various kihon to grabs, building to strikes but which all use the same exact taisabaki. I emphasize each time that the underlying taiso movement is identical in each case.

This, to build confidence in "act first, think later" with fundamental structure and movement and not anticipated "technique." It is in building that structural competence and confidence that jiyu waza seem to improve.

I focus and correct structure and movement in each student's kihon, relating back to the initial aiki taiso or others as the structural and dynamic template to train off the mat. Once introduced and explained, aiki taiso are primarily for the student to work on in their own time, other than the one that may form as basis for a given class progression.

From my perspective it makes each class fairly easy to plan and play out. even when pressed for time in arriving. Mostly, it is simply playing variations on the theme.

Hope it helps.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 06-15-2017 at 07:09 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 06-16-2017, 03:37 AM   #16
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

[quote=Peter Rehse;351554] don't ever think it was restricted to that version enjoyable though it may be.

To be the one who is acting is totally different from being the one who reacts, the possibilities to create movements spontaneous increase strongly.
Indeed it requires a different mindset.
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Old 06-16-2017, 03:58 AM   #17
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

[quote=Markus Rohde;351560]
Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
don't ever think it was restricted to that version enjoyable though it may be.

To be the one who is acting is totally different from being the one who reacts, the possibilities to create movements spontaneous increase strongly.
Indeed it requires a different mindset.
All well and good but Ikkyo is not (or ever was) defined by the timing which was the point I was making (you mentioned the original form).

Agree though - if you are going to restrict your options to reactive timing you will restrict your spontaneity.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-17-2017, 05:27 PM   #18
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

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Couldn't agree more. The problem is, how do you communicate this?...how do you get them to understand the necessity for becoming fluent in the basics?
I try to make the basic exercises meaningful. One example is swinging both arms up in ikkyo-undo - it is often a throw away exercise that is still a part of every class.

I show it as a way to receive shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, tsuki (both rising and falling). Make a point of showing the same movement is ushiro ryotedori, part of morote dori kokyuho, suwari waza. Pick a strike, and strike dozens of times with them doing the same movement. Shomenate/shomenuchi strikes. Unbendable arm stuff gets introduced.

I'm trying - I'm a nurse, and I find patients invest more time and trouble shoot their symptoms better when I get them to understand why they are doing something. I'll let y'all know if I figure out a way to make this more successful for Aikido teaching than it frankly is. Student doesn't see the point to what they are doing, they don't do it or at least never do it mindfully or with intent, then no reflex or utilization.

I also like having students work on kata in groups of three if their footwork is suffering. I try to make a point that the different footwork is often useful to avoid the second attacker. It is good to neutralize attacks, but I don't see how to teach that without giving a solid hard attack on someone who is not moving enough. Work in progress.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:44 AM   #19
Derek
 
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

I most like the language analogy. You learn letters, you learn words, you write sentences then poetry.

Or music, learn notes, learn scales, play cords, learn songs, play jazz.

In Aikido I do feel that there is less emphasis on the transition for words to poetry perhaps. One connection is randori certainly, but jiyu waza can be learned in a structured way.

We try to transition from a basic technique to jiyu waza by keeping the attack and the initial portion of the defense consistent. Then go through as many variation as we can.

How much can you vary ikkyo and still call it ikkyo? How much can you vary ikkyo irimi and still be true to the spirit of the technique. Do that for each technique from each attack with the same intention of defense. Soon you find many options. This helps to make that transition, but again back to language. How do you become fluent? You immerse.

So how do you develop fluency in aikido instead of simply being able to ask where the train station is in a foreign land? You immerse. Train, train, train.

Derek Duval
Yondan
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:16 PM   #20
tarik
 
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Nice thread with actual discussions for once (instead of insults). Maybe it's time to start reading the forums more avidly again.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old Today, 01:41 PM   #21
rugwithlegs
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

I hope we do get some additional viewpoints. To follow the language metaphor, in English we have 5 vowels, 26 letters, and 42 sounds. This forms the base for Shakespeare, Dick and Jane, the Bible, Fifty Shades of Grey and the Twilight saga. There are identifiable items that we can break most art into.

We all seem to agree on what would be anologous to poetry or a literary masterpiece. But, Aikido is very different for different schools. The A, B, Cs and foundational material in Yoshinkan or Shodokan or Ki Aikido is not the same as Aikikai.

So, we don't agree on the alphabet?

**********************

I like looking at what other systems teach beginners. The first few movements in the Shodokan Tandoku form are all about shifitng off the line with whole body movement near as I can tell.

I was never taught an Aikikai analogue. My wife will introduce jiyuwaza with a couple of attackers and the "nage" just keeping their hands down. A couple of attackers come repeatedly and the "nage" just responds by getting safe. Students are encouraged to discover a vector where an uke cannot continue easily (blind spots, or blocking an uke with another instead of straight back).
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Old Today, 05:30 PM   #22
senshincenter
 
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Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

I would wager we don't all mean the same thing either when it comes to being spontaneous with the art.

David M. Valadez
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