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Old 03-27-2002, 03:06 AM   #26
PeterR
 
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OMG have you seen Andy's picture in the profile. 6'2 250 pounds, mule ugly and a murderous glint in his eye. Go on Edwward he's all yours.

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward


If you would have said the above to me face to face, you wouldn't have liked the outcome. However, I doubt very much that you would have had the guts to say it if we were face to face.

Very pathetic person indeed.... How old are you by the way?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-27-2002, 03:07 AM   #27
erikmenzel
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Quote:
Edward used his banana to push on the keyboard and suddenly this appeared
As usual, in this forum, I have to take a radical position, which might not completely represent my real point of view, but that I consider to be a counter-balance to all the bulls**t and the hypocrisy that I read every day in the posts...
So you are not honest?

Quote:
Edward slept on his keyboard which produced:
If you would have said the above to me face to face, you wouldn't have liked the outcome. However, I doubt very much that you would have had the guts to say it if we were face to face.

Very pathetic person indeed.... How old are you by the way?
Boy, does your mentality suck bigtime.

Anybody know how to PLONK somebody on this forum??

Last edited by erikmenzel : 03-27-2002 at 03:12 AM.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 03-27-2002, 03:14 AM   #28
Bronson
 
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I personally love working with beginners. I also love working with people at or above my level. I always seem to learn so much about every aspect of aikido while working with newbies. You end up teaching them (in little snipets) history, technique, ukemi, philosophy, etiquette, etc. But, after I've learned new things about techniques from working with the new folks I need time on the mat with someone at or above my level so I can work all those new things into my aikido. So yes working with beginners is great but I think we all need some time on the mat when we're focusing on training ourselves. I can usually get both of this in the same class. Work with the new guy, discover something cool. Next, work with another yudansha and try to apply cool new discovery, file it for later use.

So after all that rambling (it's 5:00 a.m. here) I guess my advice would be to go if your allowed to. If they didn't want new people there they'd make it a yudansha only class.

Just the half sensical ramblings of a sleep deprived mad man.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 03-27-2002, 07:23 AM   #29
Edward
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR

Let's see Edward: first you condem most of what's said here as BS and full of hypocracy and then admit that your posts do not reflect your true opinion. I'm pretty sure that Andy would not have called you on it if all you did was admit to enjoy playing devil's advocate (welcome to the club. However, for someone so quick to dish it out you seem pretty incapable of taking it.
Let's say that I feel being called dishonest and without integrity are very strong and insulting words. If someone calls me that in my face, one of us at least will be severely injured, and I don't care if it's me. I think it's very easy to be less polite when the other guy is several thousand miles away.

Now to clarify my point, I say that beginners should not attend advanced classes if they are not ready yet. I am not talking about mixed classes because as you said we have to practice with every one and we rotate. But beginners in advanced classes can be a danger for themselves and for others, and because the teacher will feel compelled to lower the technical level and then it's not an advanced class anymore.

Cheers,
Edward
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Old 03-27-2002, 07:32 AM   #30
Edward
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Quote:
Originally posted by erikknoops


So you are not honest?



Boy, does your mentality suck bigtime.

Anybody know how to PLONK somebody on this forum??
Why do you feel so personally concerned with my post? Is it because you are one of these hypocrits?
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Old 03-27-2002, 08:00 AM   #31
erikmenzel
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Grr!

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
Why do you feel so personally concerned with my post?
Because you can not control who is reading it. Most people will probably recognize it for the nonsense it is. Unfortunatly some dont know enough to make that distinction and might actually confuse it with something important and worth while. To protect these people and to allow them a good and healthy idea on what is going on, it might be necessary to sometimes react to nonsense.


Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 03-27-2002, 06:23 PM   #32
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
Now to clarify my point, I say that beginners should not attend advanced classes if they are not ready yet.
Can't disagree with that.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-27-2002, 06:52 PM   #33
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
As usual, in this forum, I have to take a radical position, which might not completely represent my real point of view, but that I consider to be a counter-balance to all the bulls**t and the hypocrisy that I read every day in the posts...
Hypocrisy? On an Aikido forum? No way! It just can't be.

<this would be a straight face smiley but I can't use a straight-faced icon after typing that>

More seriously, I've gone through the beginner issue twice. In both cases, the advanced students were tremendously frustrated at a lack of training time with advanced students. There is truth to the idea that you need to work with people who can fall and challenge you. Beginners just can't do that in the same way.

In one of the dojos, I was driving an hour, each way, to the dojo and it was not unrare that the entire evening could be spent with 5th or 6th kyus some of which could barely roll or even backfall. Now, I'm happy to work with beginners, I'm helping a dojo right now where all I do is work with kyu ranks, but this dojo met twice a week and when the driving time was added in, well, it sucked! I started going to other dojos as my solution.

Eventually, this became enough of an issue, for several of us, that we altered the classes. The first half you worked with beginners or anyone who bowed to you and the second half you worked with whomever you wanted. It was ok to say no at that point. Eventually, a beginners class was added.

While I think you are making an extreme point, you do have a point. If you don't work with peers, sempai, or at least people that you can bash any which way, your technical skills will diminish.
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Old 03-27-2002, 07:18 PM   #34
Edward
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I admit of having been extreme in my first post, but maybe because of the frustration

Thanks for understanding.

Cheers,
Edward
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Old 03-29-2002, 11:47 AM   #35
Lyle Bogin
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The is always someone out there to whom you will seem like a beginner. Someone you could learn many great things from. How would you like them to consider you?
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Old 04-16-2002, 06:48 PM   #36
Bob Heffner
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What if the person in question can not make it to the beginner classes and can only attend at the time of the advanced class? Should they not be allowed to study Aikido? Most towns don't have multiple Dojos.

In all of the other Matrial Arts I've studied you have to spend time teaching, thats part of the training.

I can't imagine every class you get stuck with the beginner, so every now and then you have to give a little back of what you have recieved. Not so bad!

I ask one of the shodan at my Dojo if I could attend the mixed class (the more advanced class). Being a wise man he said "you pay your money, you can attend any class".

If you don't like working with beginners why don't you ask your Sensi not to pair you with any. You know, explain your situation and see what he has to say.

Thats my 3 cents, proably one cent more then I should have said!

Bob
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Old 04-16-2002, 08:05 PM   #37
Greg Jennings
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I'm the senior student in a very small, isolated dojo.

It's frustrating not having other senior students to train with and not being able to just visit another dojo/instructor by driving a few extra minutes in another direction.

But...

The dojo is like a large, nuclear family. The older have to care for the younger to raise them correctly. In turn, this teaches the older responsibility and nurturing.

If the older don't learn responsibility and nuturing, their own family, if they try to have one, will be dysfuntional.

Best,

Greg Jennings
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Old 04-16-2002, 11:22 PM   #38
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
I'm the senior student in a very small, isolated dojo.

It's frustrating not having other senior students to train with and not being able to just visit another dojo/instructor by driving a few extra minutes in another direction.
In a nutshell, you just summed up most of my first 7-1/2 years on the mat. I have empathy although I certainly had more external options available.

Quote:
The dojo is like a large, nuclear family. The older have to care for the younger to raise them correctly. In turn, this teaches the older responsibility and nurturing.

If the older don't learn responsibility and nuturing, their own family, if they try to have one, will be dysfuntional.
On the other hand, if the older don't keep up with their profession and skills, it's hard to say how the younger will turn out. I thought Edward was pretty extreme but he did have a point.

It's kind of like a fireman rushing into the building to save someone despite orders to not do so. If the fireman dies he becomes a hero but if he obeys orders and lives he could save hundreds more in the long run. Somewhere, somehow you've got to take care of yourself so you can take care of others. I can't say I've always balanced that right, nor even that my motivation was always pure, but I do think we did ok in the examples I mentioned.

Last edited by Erik : 04-16-2002 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 05-12-2002, 08:57 PM   #39
Gopher Boy
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I realise that this thread has been gone for a little while but I thought I might post a reply anyway.

As a white belt myself, I was absolutely dumbfounded to find that I benefitted from having a complete beginner (first lesson) pairing off against me.

My teacher told us in that particular lesson that ikkyo is one of the most important exercises in Aikido and to do it properly is very difficult. I must say that my ikkyo, while appearing correct to me has never felt 'right'. I found that by practising with this complete beginner and trying to help him understand the movements, I gained a much better insight into the reasons and timing of the movements. I am sure that when one starts off, little revelations come quite frequently as you 'get' a technique, but this was still an incredible feeling and I bowed very long and low to my partner after training.

I think that recent starters in Aikido may have reservations about training with complete beginners as they want the best guidance possible, but training with this guy, I was forced to analyse my technique. Never a bad thing - especially for a beginner.

Please - everyone thinking of starting Aikido - just get in there - we need more!

Phill.
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Old 05-12-2002, 09:09 PM   #40
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by Erik

Somewhere, somehow you've got to take care of yourself so you can take care of others. I can't say I've always balanced that right, nor even that my motivation was always pure, but I do think we did ok in the examples I mentioned.
I agree with you 100%.

It seems to me that it's the people that decide that they're in it completely for themselves that are the trouble makers.

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-12-2002, 09:23 PM   #41
Edward
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Well, I guess it's up to the situation. Obviously we all have different situations in our dojos.

If you go to an advanced class and get paired with a total beginner once or twice, it's not a big deal. But if you spend most of the advanced class trying to teach your partners how to do a more simplified version of what the teacher initially was teaching, just because your partners are in the wrong class, then it gets frustrating.

In our dojo, we have daily training, and separate classes for beginners and advanced. However, we recently started to see half of the students in the advanced classes cannot do propre ukemi yet. I think this not only spoils the fun for the advanced students but also can be potentially dangerous for the beginners (white belts).
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Old 05-13-2002, 04:03 AM   #42
Sam
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Training with beginners can be frustrating and can be a real learning experience. I am in a situation now where the student turnover is very high because of dojo location etc. I find that 90% of the time I am training with not just somebody who is inexperienced but has literally just started. When you have no choice but to continue training with beginners it makes you realise that you can progress even if you have to take everything slowly because with a beginner a technique has to be just right and you have to really think about each technique.

I think that a big problem is when the beginner only wants to be spoon-fed each technique and it doesn't occur to them that you might want to be tori once in a while.

Interestingly, this never happened while I was in Japan, but does here all the time - must be a cultural thing. I think a lot of westerners think of their time at a dojo as a 'self-defence course'. The solution must be up to all the senior grades to try to encourage beginners to uke 50% of the time so their expectations change and their aikido becomes more well rounded.

Anyway, who can claim beginners are not fun? I never fail to smile at the contortions
people are prepared to endure to spin out of techniques - especially shihonage!


P.S. Hi Peter!

Last edited by Sam : 05-13-2002 at 04:05 AM.
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Old 05-13-2002, 09:21 PM   #43
jeda
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When does one transition to an advanced student from a beginner?

It seems to me everyone should remain at the beginner level to maintain an open mind and humility. In my opinion, if you are classifing yourself as an advanced student, you've let your ego take over.

Just a thought.
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Old 05-13-2002, 10:18 PM   #44
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sam
Interestingly, this never happened while I was in Japan, but does here all the time - must be a cultural thing.
P.S. Hi Peter!
Hah! The truth now Sam - you were kept far far away from the real beginners. (Sam vs. total Japanese beginner).
Quote:
Originally posted by Jessica
It seems to me everyone should remain at the beginner level to maintain an open mind and humility.
Beginner/Advanced is a relative term and forgive me but we train to improve our skills not remain at beginers level. Shoshin is a learning state which allows us to reach more advanced levels. The idea is to keep an open and expansive mind. I can see how people wrapped up in their ego and lacking humility can have difficulty maintaining Shoshi but I don't see a direct connection.

For definitions sake a beginner is anyone with significantly less expereience than you and yes they can be both maddening and enlightening to work with. Striking a good training balance is far easier in dojos that have been established and don't have a high turn-over rate. That's probably why it was less of a problem for Sam when he visited us (so you coming back soon).

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-14-2002, 01:21 AM   #45
Edward
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Of course, we are all beginners, and will always be. Just to clarify my point in the previous posts, I was meaning by beginners students with only a few weeks experience in aikido, who cannot do ukemi safely. Anyone above this level should be ok.

I also agree with Sam about the spoon-feeding which I feel is the fault of the western teachers who, contrarily to their japanese counterparts, usually spoon-feed the information to students.

Quote:
Originally posted by jdalton51
When does one transition to an advanced student from a beginner?

It seems to me everyone should remain at the beginner level to maintain an open mind and humility. In my opinion, if you are classifing yourself as an advanced student, you've let your ego take over.

Just a thought.
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Old 05-14-2002, 10:01 AM   #46
bcole23
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I remember one time when I was visiting an out of state dojo, I attended one of the advanced classes. I was the kyu level student (still am) and my partner was shodan. I started my attacks at less than full strength as I was as yet unused to how they wanted to train.

My partner told me to really attack and to put full commitment into trying to "get" them.
After class, this person told me it was one of the most eye opening experiences they'd had in a long while. That person told me they'd learned a lot that night.

The interaction between nage and uke is where Aikido is at. Every new partner is an opportunity to learn. I believe that 'getting this stuff' to work on people that don't know Aikido or what to do is very valuable experience. You have to have control and can't rely on the other person to "know" what to do.

Yes, we need time for both training with our Kohai and our Sempai, but both should be done with equal intent. I've found that every time we get new students, I get better at doing my Aikido with the uninitiated.
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Old 05-18-2002, 10:21 AM   #47
suebailey
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Question help

hey every1
iv'e just joined and have had no experiance in aikido apart from what my mate from london has shown me.

Is there any one who can give me sum idea of were i could find a teacher in sunderland or at least sum were near instead of goin to london for a class?

thanks very much sue.
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Old 05-18-2002, 11:28 AM   #48
erikmenzel
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Hi sue,

did you look at the site of the British Aikido Board

Maybe there is also an aikidogroup at the university (Or am I mistaken and doesnt Sunderland have a university ??)

Maybe a simnple internetsearch using "Sunderland and Aikido" would give more options.

Good luck

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 05-19-2002, 04:50 AM   #49
suebailey
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Hi erikknoops

Thanks 4 the help ill check it out?
how long u been doin Aikido 4 and do u enjoy it.
I here its a defencive art unlike karate and thai boxing which i do.

Thanks again.
Luv sue
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Old 05-19-2002, 05:31 AM   #50
erikmenzel
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Quote:
Originally posted by suebailey
Thanks 4 the help ill check it out
You're welcome!
Quote:
how long u been doin Aikido 4 and do u enjoy it.
I here its a defencive art unlike karate and thai boxing which i do.
Yes, it is quite different from karate and thai boxing. Maybe the most obvious is the difference in the way of training. Aikido is trained in a soft cooperative manner.

I have been doing it now for approx. a decade, and yes I like it.

Hope you will find a nice place to train and enjoy it as well.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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