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Old 04-20-2001, 09:24 AM   #26
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
Join Date: Jun 2000
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From a western perspective this level of training only really occors in elite army type units. From the oriental perspective, this occored in a situation involving elite martial artists. You can't take something that typically happened with supremely dedicated or live-in students and make too much sense of it. We don't have the time or dedication for it.

I think maybe we're focusing too much on the bleeding in this debate and not enough on the training that caused it. Nobody forced these people to train like this but themselves.

andrew
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Old 04-20-2001, 11:09 AM   #27
George S. Ledyard
 
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Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
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My Old "Hard Training"

Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23
George,

I enjoyed your post very much.

People who disagree with hard training will always find excuses to justify their opinion. I suppose the same can be said for the opposite -- but does that mean that both views are correct?

I'm sure that an analogy can be made with real commitment and focused study in most endeavours.

I've given my opinion before on what I've seen in some aikido classes (and other MAs), and I don't think I need anyone to try to offer excuses and "explain" why the students and teachers were the way they were.

In any class there will always -- well almost always -- be students of different ages and levels of fitness. Should that lower class standards? Of course not, although each person should receive training geared towards their needs and abilities.

Years ago (when I was younger than 35), when I trained in another martial art, there were days when our teacher (an 8th dan) would feel that some students were slacking off in class and he would get fairly demanding. I remember classes where we were made to do push ups and sit ups only for an entire class. Then there was the jumping! Jumping and running for three hours instead of the usual training. Occasionally we would even train outside on tennis courts -- barefooted.

We all survived and we all toughened up. And as a result our confidence level soared.

Abuse and hard training aren't necessarily the same thing.

Jim23
I took Shotokan Karate in college many years before I found Aikido. We did a special 24 hour ordeal (in japan it was suposed to be a week long) that was supposed to be preparation for testing.

I lost 10 pounds in that 24 hours. We stood in horse stance for 30 minutes and then the sensei came and pushed down on our belts. If we fell over he'd slap you upside the head and make you try again. We ran a mile or so in the snow (it was New Hampshire) barefoot. I stood in front stance for 35 minutes witha guy on my shoulders. Two people blacked out and one keeled over hyper ventilating. By the end of the ordeal one person actually attacked the sensei (which he treated casually and without comment), one guy actually tried to escape from the gym but was retrieved by sensei out in the hallway and was dragged back. I ended up exhausted and blubbering. Frankly, although I never did one again, I am glad that I had that experience. Not because it made me so tough but because it made me a lot more humble. Let me know where my limits lay. Anytime I would get too full of myself later I my training I could always call to mind that fellow who was weeping from exhaustion and wishing he would black out so he could rest. Puts things back into perspective. Nobody had any injuries except to their egos.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 04-20-2001, 12:18 PM   #28
Jim23
Join Date: Jan 2001
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I always enjoy reading your posts.

I can also recall a few "interesting" classes myself (I hope I don't bore people here). For example, watching a buddy of mine (we used to run four miles to class and back home afterwards) pass out while in horse stance, the reason was that he was punching the teacher in the stomach, over and over again. It was just too much for him.

That same teacher used to strap on wrist and ankle weights and go running for hours -- in the mountains! Oh, by the way, he was a very nice, humble fellow. He also saved a teenager's life by catching him after he had attemped suicide by jumping out of an apartment window (he [the teacher] ended up in hospital for a few months, as a result).

I also remember anwsering my name during roll call after one very intense class. Problem was that I was out on my feet. I couldn't see a thing, just pitch blackness. I had to get assistance from a friend just to walk out. I was fine in a few minutes and even lived to tell the tale.

I never did the running in the snow, although another teacher talked about doing it often himself.

Even before all this, when I did Kyokushinkai, I can remember a 14 year old black belt who used to do 30 pushups with an adult standing on his back, they called him the "little tiger". Our instructor there used to jump from stomach to stomach while people were doing situps (sounds worse than it was).

The Kyokushinkai was more or less full contact (no protection) and in each class you were pushed to your limits in many ways. HOWEVER, you NEVER questioned your ability to strike or to take (or evade) a strike (you absolutely knew what it was like). Guess what? We all left the dojo rejuvenated, with an almost spiritual feeling (I can't think of a better way of explaing it) and the confidence to take on the world.

I think some people go to train just so they can stop for a beer afterwards. Actually, that doesn't sound so bad.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 05-09-2001, 07:05 AM   #29
ian
 
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Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
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Heh Heh Heh,
great stuff. I've been through some quite serious training myself (although it did cause kidney failure to someone from dehydration) but generally I think you can have, and it is important to have training which tests your psychological and physical limits (but without causing damage).

Without being psychologically strong there is no chance we will be able to get puched full force on to the floor by someone twice our size, and then be able to get up and fight. Also, there are many times when it is hard to do what you think is right and you feel you have to follow the crowd, but looking back on those painful times always makes you realise that some things are more important.

Ian

P.S. one of my students vomited during a short run up a hill before outdoor weapons training last weekend - and I'm sure it did him good.
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Old 05-09-2001, 07:49 AM   #30
Jim23
Join Date: Jan 2001
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I must admit, I never really saw anyone get seriously hurt.

The only time I saw anyone vomit in class (outside that is) was due to a knifehand strike to the throat by the sensi (he was sparring with three people at once and got careless), the guy was fine in a few minutes.

In hindsight, I guess a cold beer could have helped his throat. However, too many could cause further vomiting.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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