Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-18-2004, 04:52 AM   #1
domidude
Dojo: Kobayashi Dojos, Hungary
Location: Hungary
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8
Hungary
Offline
protecting a third party person

aikido is great to protect myself and initially avoid trouble, it has great technics to control a situation and protect the agressor/attacker from the consequences of their own action, but what can be done - as far as aikido can go - to protect someone else in trouble, on the street... ie: someone getting beaten up by two other guys? (and no time to call for help...)
in this case protecting that person would be attacking the two other guys, would it not?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2004, 05:10 AM   #2
angel_joanna20
Dojo: Częstochowa Aikikai
Location: Częstochowa
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3
Poland
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

hi
you are a good guy, if you help people in trouble
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2004, 05:14 AM   #3
angel_joanna20
Dojo: Częstochowa Aikikai
Location: Częstochowa
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3
Poland
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2004, 05:39 AM   #4
Orihime
Dojo: Sei Shin Kai (Compiègne)
Location: France
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 32
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

Well, dunno. If you interfere, the two bad guys will probably attack you and leave your buddy alone. Then, well, you may imagine it's a randori. Don't hesitate with atemi, especially if they're two on you...
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2004, 06:34 AM   #5
Josh Bisker
Dojo: Oberlin Aikikai, and Renshinkan London
Location: Oberlin, OH
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

throw a rock at them.

mostly kidding with that, but i guess that if you can get them to leave the person alone to attack you, then you're doing something. of course, that might be a terrible idea - you are putting yourself at serious risk. of course we all want to help, but perhaps a resourceful person could figure out something which will help out the person being attacked while still keeping you safe. like throwing a rock at them.

Last edited by Josh Bisker : 05-18-2004 at 06:38 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2004, 07:08 AM   #6
Robert Jackson
Dojo: seishinkan
Location: Texas City.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 133
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

Well, I like to call it cell phone waza.... Put my hand in my pocket, pull out my cell and call the police...
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2004, 07:12 AM   #7
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

Glass them when their not looking.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2004, 10:59 AM   #8
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

Quote:
Robert Jackson wrote:
Well, I like to call it cell phone waza.... Put my hand in my pocket, pull out my cell and call the police...
Go with this if at all possible.

I guess it amazes me that people never work on this kind of stuff. To quote something Peter Rehse said in the Concrete Ukemi thread.
Quote:
There is no fundamental difference between ukemi on any surface - if there is you should consider exactly what you are training for.
Same thing needs to apply to technique. It needs to be adaptable to whatever situation. In a 3rd party situation there is still energy being given. It's just not directed at you but that doesn't mean you can't blend with and redirect it. Once the initial blend and redirect has taken place move into whatever technique fits the situation.

IMO aikido is not about learning a set of techniques. It's about learning a set of principles. We use the techniques to teach us the principles but once the principles are learned techniques begin to appear and adapt as needed.

YMMV

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2004, 03:52 PM   #9
Amassus
 
Amassus's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Musubi Ryu/ Yoshin Wadokan
Location: Hamilton
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 306
New Zealand
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

My instructor had such an experience. He saw a guy being kicked while on the ground. He performed irimi into the scuffle and stood over the guy saying "You will not kick him anymore" His boldness and bearing was enough to deter the attackers, they left. No blows were exchanged.

Sometimes people can sense the confidence something like aikido can give you, and they back off.

Of course, maybe, my instructor just got lucky...who knows for sure.

Last edited by Amassus : 05-18-2004 at 03:54 PM.

"flows like water, reflects like a mirror, and responds like an echo." Chaung-tse
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2004, 06:15 PM   #10
Ninja Mike
 
Ninja Mike's Avatar
Dojo: Antigonish Aikikai
Location: Nova Scotia
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11
Canada
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

i say you castrate the bastards with a hammer..........hehehehehehe

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!........ on a serious note personally i would put myself between the the attackers and the victim, and hopefully it would deter the attackers (who are obviously cowards for fighting 2 on 1) enough to walk away, and if they don't hopefully my aikido skills against multiple attackers will pay off. what im trying to say is that you want to try to stop them from attacking without attacking them, make it so they have to attack you or walk away.

Last edited by Ninja Mike : 05-18-2004 at 06:19 PM.

Before man had guns, he had balls!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2004, 09:15 PM   #11
Tadhg Bird
 
Tadhg Bird's Avatar
Dojo: New School Aikido, Stockton, CA
Location: Casper, WY
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 55
United_States
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

We can theorize all we want about particular situations, but when it comes down to it, (hopefully) our training will enable us to act spontaneously and correctly.

I would not consider throwing someone who is attacking another an "attack". It is possible to move first and still be Aikido. My teacher calls this 'Saki ni'.

To contradict what I said from the outset, I can think of two techniques I would try given the described situation.

There is an Irimi, where you enter behind someone and placing a hand on each of their shoulders, bring them down to the ground. This would work if not facing the attacker.

Another, I don't know the name, but would work facing someone is you place a hand on the side of their head, and roll the head into your shoulder and drop them.

Of course this is all theory. I don't know what I would do in the real situation. Maybe just jump in the middle and do whatever needs doing. Maybe something I cannot imagine.

"Words and letters can never adequately describe Aikido -- its meaning is revealed only to those who are enlightened through hard training." -- Ueshiba Morihei O Sensei
--

http://www.AikidoStuff.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2004, 10:03 PM   #12
Ian Williams
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 136
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

Quote:
There is an Irimi, where you enter behind someone and placing a hand on each of their shoulders, bring them down to the ground. This would work if not facing the attacker.
I think we have something similar in JJ called O Irimi Senkai
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2004, 10:39 PM   #13
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

Quote:
Ian Williams wrote:
I think we have something similar in JJ called O Irimi Senkai
We call it ushiro-ate. See here for the animated gif. The explanation relates it to Kodokan Judo principles.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2004, 10:45 PM   #14
Largo
Dojo: Aikikai Dobunkan/ Icho Ryu Aikijujutsu
Location: Indiana
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 247
United_States
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

It would depend on the situation. I wouldn't jump in the middle (because that would get me clobbered and not much else). I would guess that I would either try to distract them or else attack from behind (kick to the back, back of the knees, etc.)
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2004, 04:13 AM   #15
markwalsh
Dojo: Airenjuku Brighton
Location: On the road - UK
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 514
United Nations
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

I believe O'Sensei said that aikido can be used in this kind context, though it was caged in more old fashioned languge. I think the quote was from Tohei senseis book before he split from the Aikikai? Our responsibility is to minimize violence in general right? Not just to ourselves but to others, including the attackers.

I intervined as a third party recently and employed some blending and a strangle. No one got more than grazes (no mats) so was OK result in my book. Couldn't make a wrist lock work, but I was pretty drunk. If it had been a bunch of people....? Guess that depends on how brave you are!

Oh, to bring you oldies up to speed, camera phones tend to discourage kickings. Snap a few pics then threaten to send them to the police. On the other hand that might just antagonise people, but heh, you gotta pratice so either way!

Mark
x
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2004, 06:13 AM   #16
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

In the most important aspect aikido is good in a 3rd party situation: it can give you the confidence to intervene before violence even occurs (because you feel you can protect yourself). Personally I do feel I have a duty to intervene in some situations because I believe fighting is not about whether you can win or loose, it is about whether (morally) you should or should not fight.

I have intervened once and completely misread the situation, however aikido was ideal because after restraining them, I realised my mistake; I apologised and I hadn't caused any damage; it's all good.

I think the beauty of aikido is that it is a self-defence which stops you having to make any value judgments - if someone attacks you agressively they tend to fall hard; if they attack softly the defence tends to be more gentle. Although in multiple attack situations I may temorarily disable someone, I would never try to kill anyone because you can never fully understand another's motivation or problems; you can only hope that one day they will live to regret some of their actions.

Also, aikido doesn't require hate, and is good at dealing with projected hate from attackers, so there are less psychological repercussions (which are often worse than the physical ones).

Ian
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2004, 06:18 AM   #17
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

P.S. the situation you describe happened to me. In a crowded pub two men were kicking a third who was on the floor (which is potentially life threatening). I could not reach them and nobody was stopping them so I shouted very loudly "Oooiyyy" across the pub. To my suprise they stopped to look at me. I couldn't get near them, and didn't know what else to do so I shouted "f*ck off" (1st thing that I could think of). They were about to start back into him, but I had bought enough time for the bar staff (who may have been alterted by my shout) to grab the agressors.

Don't underestimate the power of the voice!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2004, 06:20 AM   #18
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

P.P.S. I've never regretted getting involved in a 3rd party situation, but a couple of times I have regretted not getting involved (but I'm free to say that 'cos I'm still alive!) It is often a difficult thing for you to do because friends and people around you are very discouraging about getting involved. As long as the objective is to physically protect people (in general) from serious injury* and not to get in to a fight or involved in an argument which isn't yours I think it is justified.

(* often when young men fight it seems to do them good and it helps them establish their own hierarchy or brings them to understand each other more)

Last edited by ian : 05-19-2004 at 06:23 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2004, 07:24 AM   #19
Ninja Mike
 
Ninja Mike's Avatar
Dojo: Antigonish Aikikai
Location: Nova Scotia
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11
Canada
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
In the most important aspect aikido is good in a 3rd party situation: it can give you the confidence to intervene before violence even occurs (because you feel you can protect yourself). Personally I do feel I have a duty to intervene in some situations because I believe fighting is not about whether you can win or loose, it is about whether (morally) you should or should not fight.

I have intervened once and completely misread the situation, however aikido was ideal because after restraining them, I realised my mistake; I apologised and I hadn't caused any damage; it's all good.

I think the beauty of aikido is that it is a self-defence which stops you having to make any value judgments - if someone attacks you agressively they tend to fall hard; if they attack softly the defence tends to be more gentle. Although in multiple attack situations I may temorarily disable someone, I would never try to kill anyone because you can never fully understand another's motivation or problems; you can only hope that one day they will live to regret some of their actions.

Also, aikido doesn't require hate, and is good at dealing with projected hate from attackers, so there are less psychological repercussions (which are often worse than the physical ones).

Ian
I think that would sums up my views on it perfectally

Before man had guns, he had balls!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2004, 07:44 AM   #20
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,902
United_States
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

IMHO, If you see Aikido is true Budo, and if the goal of Aikido is the loving protection of all people, and if the strategy is to enter and blend and do the least amount of damage, then an offensive move would appear appropriate.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2004, 09:21 AM   #21
markwalsh
Dojo: Airenjuku Brighton
Location: On the road - UK
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 514
United Nations
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

Excellent posts Ian.

You have also proven the point that eloquent, intelligent and peaceful people can swear to! Keep it up, its cool and hard.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2004, 05:40 PM   #22
Tadhg Bird
 
Tadhg Bird's Avatar
Dojo: New School Aikido, Stockton, CA
Location: Casper, WY
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 55
United_States
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
We call it ushiro-ate. See here for the animated gif. The explanation relates it to Kodokan Judo principles.
Yes, Ushiro-ate is very close to the technique I described. Thank you!

"Words and letters can never adequately describe Aikido -- its meaning is revealed only to those who are enlightened through hard training." -- Ueshiba Morihei O Sensei
--

http://www.AikidoStuff.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2004, 11:18 AM   #23
gasman
 
gasman's Avatar
Dojo: Sunyata
Location: Oslo
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 114
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

Think twice before you enter the situation, because you will draw the agression of two people towards yourself. Also remember that although the highest aim of aikido is to disable the agressor without causing harm, your prime responisbility is to protect yourself. And if this means causing harm to the agressor(s) so be it. I would say it takes a lot of guts and self confidence in your technique to step in. Sometimes it will be enough to shout (ki-ai) letting them know that another person is aware and incoming, other times you might end up on the floor bleeding...
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2004, 11:54 AM   #24
Troy
 
Troy's Avatar
Dojo: Yellow Springs Aikido
Location: Fairborn, Oh
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 50
United_States
Offline
Re: protecting a third party person

Quote:
Dean Suter wrote:
My instructor had such an experience. He saw a guy being kicked while on the ground. He performed irimi into the scuffle and stood over the guy saying "You will not kick him anymore" His boldness and bearing was enough to deter the attackers, they left. No blows were exchanged.

Sometimes people can sense the confidence something like aikido can give you, and they back off.

Of course, maybe, my instructor just got lucky...who knows for sure.
I would do what Dean Suter's Sensei did. Sence he did an Irimi into the fight, if an attack did happen, he would have been in the perfect position to exicute a throw or what-have-you. But, to be honest, if that did happen to me, knowing my luck, i might lose control, and throw the attacker without saying anything. I feel that a big part of Aikido is helping those in need; be it helping an old person cross a street, or if they are being attacked.
"The strong protect the weak, so the weak may become strong."

"The Art of Peace is the religion that is not a religion; it perfects and completes all religions."
-Morihei Ueshiba
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido is only as good as the person... justinmaceachern General 13 02-21-2006 11:39 AM
Spreading this wonderful budo Embarrassed Anonymous 74 07-04-2005 10:34 AM
Intent of Attack sunny liberti General 25 12-08-2004 10:06 AM
Acceptable injury rate? Unregistered Anonymous 41 01-15-2004 07:00 PM
Systema Seminar with Vladimir Vasiliev, Part 1 aikibaka131 Seminars 2 07-22-2003 12:45 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:38 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate