Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-23-2010, 12:31 AM   #1
Mariska Poiesz
 
Mariska Poiesz's Avatar
Dojo: Aiki o Kami; Watersportbaan/Gusb
Location: Gent
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 12
Belgium
Offline
Tenkan and Irimi vs Omote and Ura

Hi,

During last nights training session we were focusing on the two sides of the techniques. This is often indicated by using the words tenkan and irimi or omote and ura.
They are not the same, since tenkan and irimi refer to movement, while omote and ura refer to the 'front' and 'back' side.

Yet, unless I am mistaken, an omote is often paired with an irimi, and an ura is often paired with a tenkan.
So then what is the difference between the two?

thank you,
Mariska
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2010, 12:36 AM   #2
Beard of Chuck Norris
Dojo: Aberdeen Aikido Yuishinkai
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 181
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Tenkan and Irimi vs Omote and Ura

You can irimi to omote or ura
You can tenkan to omote or ura.

You step to their inside / front = irimi, omote
You step to their outside / back = irimi, ura
You turn to their inside / front = tenkan, omote
You turn to their outside / back = tenkan ura

Simples.
(been a while since my last post, hello everyone!)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2010, 12:57 AM   #3
Mariska Poiesz
 
Mariska Poiesz's Avatar
Dojo: Aiki o Kami; Watersportbaan/Gusb
Location: Gent
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 12
Belgium
Offline
Re: Tenkan and Irimi vs Omote and Ura

Oh dear,
So I was probably missing out on half of the movements, I'll have to work on that.
Thank you
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2010, 01:04 AM   #4
ilia rudnitskiy
 
ilia rudnitskiy's Avatar
Dojo: Saskatoon Aikikai
Location: Saskatoon
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 31
Canada
Offline
Re: Tenkan and Irimi vs Omote and Ura

You usually irimi into uke's omote, since entering uke's center with a tenkan--thereby turning your back towards him--is more or less a foolish thing (or so we're taught).
Entering to uke's ura can be done with either a tenkan or an irimi (tenkan: kotegaeshi, irimi: iriminage, etc.). I think in the beginning you learn to enter more with a tenkan to the ura, and then later on you learn to enter with an irimi since there's more distance to cover? I'm not sure.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2010, 01:42 AM   #5
Beard of Chuck Norris
Dojo: Aberdeen Aikido Yuishinkai
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 181
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Tenkan and Irimi vs Omote and Ura

Yup, you'd rarely want to tenkan to omote.... but you can.

Glad I could help. Don't worry about missing out half the movements... some of them are a bit academic i.e. worthy of study that might give you a more full picture but with limited application on their own.

Quote:
I think in the beginning you learn to enter more with a tenkan to the ura, and then later on you learn to enter with an irimi since there's more distance to cover? I'm not sure.
Depends on your school I'd imagine... How your syllabus is formed, what attacks appear when and what techniques appear when.

Last edited by Beard of Chuck Norris : 03-23-2010 at 01:44 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2010, 01:36 AM   #6
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Tenkan and Irimi vs Omote and Ura

I don't know if this will lessen or increase the confusion, but I'd add 'kaiten' to the list of irimi and tenkan. With kaiten being basically a step backwards at an angle (so front foot becomes back foot). Then the simple mapping of irimi - omote and tenkan - ura no longer works, because you've got nothing to map tenkan to.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2010, 01:56 AM   #7
aikishihan
Dojo: aikido academy/alhambra,california
Location: Los Angeles, California
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 371
United_States
Offline
Re: Tenkan and Irimi vs Omote and Ura

The beauty of Aiki, is that there are as many ways to describe its application, as there are to describe it purpose.

My take on the question posed is as follows. No need to follow mine.

omote and ura refers to where nage applies movement and technique in relationship to the uke.

mae and ushiro refers to where uke approaches nage with the attack.

omote and mae(rarely stated) refer to the front; ura and ushiro refer to the back

irimi refers to the entering into an opening exposed or created.

tenkan, also called tai o henko by some, refers to the connection nage makes with uke by pivoting and setting uke up for a technique, or bringing uke along with the tenkan movement preparatory to a technique.

Hope this is helpful; if not, please discard.

In Oneness,
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2010, 04:05 AM   #8
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 659
England
Offline
Re: Tenkan and Irimi vs Omote and Ura

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
I don't know if this will lessen or increase the confusion, but I'd add 'kaiten' to the list of irimi and tenkan. With kaiten being basically a step backwards at an angle (so front foot becomes back foot). Then the simple mapping of irimi - omote and tenkan - ura no longer works, because you've got nothing to map tenkan to.
Respectfully, You could also add tai sabaki and in this instance it wouldn't help at all. Just muddies already cloudy waters.

All of theses are movements in Aikido but Irimi and Tenkan are directly linked to each other.

One can perform an entering movement using irimi or a withdrawing movement creating tenkan (of which for me the turning movement fixated by many as tenkan is just one form). They are together. Do them both and you could end up where you started.

Irimi / tenkan are according to Tamura Sensei, foundations of Aikido....FWIW he positions I/T smack bang in the middle of his 9 bases. (source is at home but believe its either in his teachers guide or in his book on transmission translated by Stephane Bennedetti 6th Dan)

He specifically lists them as a single foundation.

Ura / Omote are also considered a single foundation.

He writes "

Any technique in Aikido has two aspects: Ura Wasa and Omote Wasa.

Ura represents the reverse, the back, the hidden side of things.

Omote represents the front, the surface, exterior, the apparent side of things.

In everything there is Ura and Omote. Man himself has a front and a back.
Ura and Omote can equally be used to mean exterior and interior. One can, for example, have a smiling face and feel pain in the heart or even have the appearance of the Buddha while lacking emotion.

Explaining in simple terms, techniques carried out in front of the adversary are called Omote Wasa and those from behind, Ura Wasa. Certain techniques are possible in Omote Wasa and Ura Wasa, others in one of the two.

In reality the techniques do not exist in these forms and the distinction does not have a practical application. The Omote Wasa and Ura Wasa classification was probably introduced to facilitate training and in fact an essential part of the learning process is to reject this classification and not to let yourself be hideboun
d.
"

If you take tenkan to be any physical withdrawal , or at higher level, even an inbreath...then this does not restrict the eventual form, and it can fit either classification depending on positional relationship to uke.

I like his 'essential part of learning process is to reject this classification' - ultimately you are free. Move and a form manifestsitself.

Or so I'm lead to believe and hope to one day reach this level.

Quote:
Francis Takahashi wrote: View Post

Hope this is helpful; if not, please discard.
- I echo this .

Regards

D

Last edited by Dazzler : 03-24-2010 at 04:16 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2010, 04:33 AM   #9
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Tenkan and Irimi vs Omote and Ura

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
Respectfully, You could also add tai sabaki and in this instance it wouldn't help at all. Just muddies already cloudy waters.
AFAIK, tai sabaki means body movement, so irimi, tenkan (and kaiten) would be types of tai sabaki. Adding tai sabaki would then only serve to muddy the waters and nothing else, unlike the adding of kaiten.
Or do you have a different meaning of tai sabaki in mind?

Quote:
One can perform an entering movement using irimi or a withdrawing movement creating tenkan (of which for me the turning movement fixated by many as tenkan is just one form).
That's also a good solution.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2010, 04:57 AM   #10
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 659
England
Offline
Re: Tenkan and Irimi vs Omote and Ura

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
AFAIK, tai sabaki means body movement, so irimi, tenkan (and kaiten) would be types of tai sabaki. Adding tai sabaki would then only serve to muddy the waters and nothing else, unlike the adding of kaiten.
Or do you have a different meaning of tai sabaki in mind?

That's also a good solution.
I was actually thinking more of sideways movement into an off line position -so not exactly kaiten.

Either way -I see both as additional movements to Irimi and Tenkan and not really pertinent to specific question in the title.

it really is just a small critique in my attempt to refocus on the question in hand which is the very common confusion between the words in the title of the thread.

Hope thats clearer.

Regards

D
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2010, 11:46 AM   #11
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: Tenkan and Irimi vs Omote and Ura

Techniques calling for tenkan to the front of uke -- where essentially there is a moment when you are turning with your back to uke but inside the arc of uke's attack -- seem to require very precise maai and tai sabki (executing the tenkan to minimize that moment's potential opening.) I find a natural tendency to hesitate as nage, which of course itself interferes with maai.

We also practice weapons kata containing this kind of entry. It helps.

FWIW

David Henderson
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:17 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate