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Old 07-20-2004, 04:21 PM   #26
kironin
 
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Re: Fake Credentials

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
The issues here in the UK are those of regulation. Who issues the senior Yudansha to the principal instructors who have no accountability to anyone else? The reality is that their grades are either granted internally by the "students" or gained from other organisations of 'independent' sources that can and do consist of other martial arts.
.

Of course in the US there is no regulation and this happens in the Martial Arts all the time. It's very common in karate to have their own organizations to promote them to something like 9th dan. Some "martial artists" don't even bother with forming or building an organization or buying it from a mail order organization, they just go print it up.

The daughter of a friend of mine who works at a print shop came home recently and asked my friend if he knew this person the print shop had just made nice official looking certificates for yondan in Iaido and yondan in Kendo. It turned out to be a beginner he had as a student for a little over a year until about a year ago when he had just stoppped attending class after my friend refused his repeated requests to teach him Okuden kata.
The student was already studying tapes. The problem in our information rich age is that it is all too easy for frauds to mimic advance stuff because videos and online information is easily obtainable (http://www.geocities.com/kampaibudokai/Okutachi.htm) and prospective students often have no idea what to look for. Aikido has a large amount of visual and written material available. It's a great resource for good or bad.

If there is something to be gained, there will always be those who prey on basic human trust. I think vigilance about the quality of documentation is warranted even if some are offended. The honest should always keep things upfront and open to help make a distinction for those less aware.

Last edited by kironin : 07-20-2004 at 04:23 PM.

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Old 07-22-2004, 07:00 AM   #27
Peter Seth
Dojo: Zanshin. Sunderland University
Location: Sunderland
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Re: Fake Credentials

David
Please don't take my 'general' comment using the words 'politics' and 'petty' to heart. I did also say that there was probably a lot more to the dispute than met the eye. I can also see all the points you raise as being valid (depending on your standpoint) - but, having been in the Martial arts 'game' (I know its not a game - but why not? - it should be enjoyable), for over 40 years I have encountered similar events on regular occasions.
The key words are as you said honesty, also integrity, respect and trust, but unfortunately that 'thing' we all in the arts should be trying to control, the 'EGO', tends to get loose and make itself felt - not usually in a positive , constructive manner.
We could have an interesting conversation on 'Traditional' , independant organisations etc.
Firstly may I say that Parent organisations are very useful and on the whole do a great job - as does the BAB. But, did not O'sensei say 'Take what I leave to you (Aikido - physical and spiritual) and make it your own'. I believe he understood that his/our art is 'organic' in nature and must develop and grow (keeping to general principles which govern all things). So maybe a bit of independance is a good thing? If something is 'controlled' it tends to stop growing.

No offence - I tend to approach things a bit like a devils advocate, this usually 'raises the grouse' as it were and the discussion becomes a little more open.
Cheers
Peter
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Old 07-22-2004, 07:57 AM   #28
philipsmith
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Re: Fake Credentials

I've already posted some comments earlier in this thread.
Without going over old ground I can see a need for proper "vetting" of credentials by a governing body but I think we also have to cautious who is vetting whom. In the UK (and I assume elsewhere) there are a lot of independent dojos whose instructors carry what I would call inflated grades.
Essentially I dont have a problem with that if they clearly state I am x grade in y association but I DO have a problem when they represent themselves as being x Dan Aikido ( or Iai-do etc. etc.) without making it clear where that grade came from.
I also think that the propspective student should check up on the instructor's history (perhaps through a governing body) and credibility before getting on a mat with him or her, but at the end of the day peole make their own choices. I just ask that those choices be informed.
There will always be charlatans in all walks of life and gullible people who are taken in by them.

P.S. In the current BAB dispute I don't think either side is completely right; as usual there are shades of grey.
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Old 07-22-2004, 09:15 AM   #29
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
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Re: Fake Credentials

Philip. Unfortunately, in the states we have no restrictions. Anyone with a computer and the inkling to do so can set up their own organization, establish bylaws making them some lofty dan grade and print up a fancy looking rank certificate. Unless a wise consumer or experienced one bothers to check the credential or someone else points out the inconsistencies or fraudulent behavior such legends in their own mind can easily dupe the public. It's unfortunate but happens a lot here. We do not have one organization monitoring or controlling the behavior of martial artists teaching in this country. Large organizations do have their criteria unfortunately, there is nothing to stop anyone from doing what they want to do.
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Old 07-22-2004, 12:30 PM   #30
David Humm
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Re: Fake Credentials

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote:
In the current BAB dispute I don't think either side is completely right; as usual there are shades of grey.
Hi Philip.

The "current" dispute has been resolved as of the 6th July with an apology forthcoming form the BAB. This information will be available on the Governing Body's website.

Regards
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Old 07-23-2004, 02:43 PM   #31
alpo
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Re: Fake Credentials

Hi Dave,
An apology from the BAB? Interesting. Life does have its shades of Grey, but as in this case, Life can also be blatantly Black and White.
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Old 07-23-2004, 03:23 PM   #32
David Humm
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Re: Fake Credentials

Quote:
Alexander Poiritrin wrote:
Hi Dave,
An apology from the BAB? Interesting. Life does have its shades of Grey, but as in this case, Life can also be blatantly Black and White.
Indeed.

Time to put my gi on and have some training.
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Old 07-23-2004, 04:46 PM   #33
siwilson
Dojo: Kenshinkai Yoshinkan Aikido
Location: Portsmouth
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Re: Fake Credentials

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote:
Time to put my gi on and have some training.
Which is, of course, what really matters!


Osu!
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Old 07-23-2004, 05:38 PM   #34
David Humm
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Re: Fake Credentials

Digressing slightly but remaining on the theme..

Dan grades in BUDO ??? Has this subject been discussed here before ?

Within the UK I'm seeing more and more 'apparently' senior Yudansha claiming grades in Budo, I Googled "dan Budo" and was quite surprised at the results.

Is this just another ruse to inflate ego with 'other' dan grades or, am I completely mistaken ?

Thanks
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Old 07-26-2004, 07:32 AM   #35
alpo
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Re: Fake Credentials

Quote:
Peter Seth wrote:
.. I know that sincere people are sometimes caught up in what I would term petty squabbles....
Petty squabbles do exist, however this is far from petty. I've been reading about British Aikido at www.geocities.com/britishaikido and I find it hard to believe Mr. Seth, that anyone who calls themselves a martial artist could refer to anything that involves the integrity of a martial arts teacher as "petty". I find this totally beyond my belief, I've re-visited the British Aikido site, and I suggest you do the same , and please read what Sensei Henry Ellis has to say about the use of the word "petty" in his reply to the strange letter from the UK organization called the Ken-Shin-Kai.
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Old 07-30-2004, 02:47 AM   #36
Jason Tonks
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Re: Fake Credentials

Absolutely Alpo. This is no petty argument.Truth and sincerity lie at the heart of the martial arts. To try and build ones own kudos by falsely aligning yourself to deceased masters is not a charge the vast majority of martial artists would want laid at their door.

All the best Jason T
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Old 08-04-2004, 01:45 PM   #37
alpo
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Re: Fake Credentials

Hello Jason,
Truth and Sincerity are excellent points that seem to have fallen unfortunately on the wayside. The importance of accurate credentials is explained in an excellent article on the importance of lineage in the Japanese Martial Arts by Sensei Ellis Amdur. This article can be read here: http://www.geocities.com/britishaikido/messages.htm
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Old 08-04-2004, 03:22 PM   #38
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
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Re: Fake Credentials

Alexander thanks for the link. Great comments by Ellis. I would make some alterations though (my suggestions are in quotes): '.... to falsify a "rank" makes one's entire practice corrupt, because one is not merely measured by one's skill, but by one's integrity. To lie about one's "rank"" is to spit on the gift that was given to "others who earned rank by training" many years before. It expresses an inadequacy of character that, in my opinion, will be reflected in other actions both within and without the dojo.' To me, this is the crux of lofty grades and sokeships not earned but awarded by self serving organizations often times set up by the same person.
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Old 08-05-2004, 04:28 AM   #39
philipsmith
Dojo: Ren Shin Kan
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Re: Fake Credentials

I have responded to this thread before.

Without going into detail or impuning anyones charachter can I just say that having been involved in Aikido since 1968 (as a student of Chiba Shihan) I know both parties and quite frankly there are huge shades of grey on both sides.
At times the level of debate has been that of throwing toys out of the pram and after nearly 5 years lets hope the BAB statement puts an end to it.

To paraphrase; why do you see the mote in anothers eye and not the plank in your own. (Sorry to all biblical scholars)
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Old 08-05-2004, 07:52 AM   #40
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
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Re: Fake Credentials

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote:
At times the level of debate has been that of throwing toys out of the pram and after nearly 5 years lets hope the BAB statement puts an end to it.
We all hope for this. Human nature being what it is, I worry that certain parties will try to prolong the unpleasantness through continual stirring up on the internet, which has led to innocent people being dragged in. It's all so unneccesary.

I think that everybody has the right to hold their own opinions, but no right to use them to stir up trouble using inflammatory posts.

I really don't care who agrees and disagrees whith whom. I am an adult who can make up her own mind about this case, having trained under both parties, and I trust my own judgement about the character of each sensei concerned.

Ruth
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Old 08-05-2004, 01:48 PM   #41
siwilson
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Re: Fake Credentials

Well said, Ruth.

Osu!
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Old 08-05-2004, 10:23 PM   #42
Robert Cheshire
 
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Ki Symbol Re: Fake Credentials

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
Hmm, IIRC both Shioda and Mochizuki took Aikido ranks from the Kokusai Budoin (IMAF), which is not an Aikido organization...
Minoru Mochizuki was already a 9th dan prior to IMAF offering the 10th dan and only accepted it AFTER asking Ueshiba family who said that they felt O-Sensei would want Minoru to have the 10th dan.

That being said - I agree with the statements that people should not give rank in something they don't have rank in themself. It is also way to easy to print up just about any type of credentials you want. That's one of the strong parts about belonging to a national and/or international organization. My credentials, for instance, can be confirmed by our national and international organizations - both of which know me by name.

Robert Cheshire
Yoseikan Budo/Aikido
www.yoseikanbudo.us
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Old 08-06-2004, 01:59 PM   #43
alpo
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Re: Fake Credentials

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote:
To paraphrase; why do you see the mote in anothers eye and not the plank in your own. (Sorry to all biblical scholars)
Sounds like Matthew 7 verse 3 to 4, but by all means don't stop there, finish the rest of the verse which says first remove the plank from your eye so you can remove the mote in your brothers. This translates as I can't tell my "brother" to quit shooting heroin if I'm addicted myself. I need to be clean and sober before helping him with his addiction or problem. Now I'm using the example of heroin, but it could be anything else and in this case it's a brother who's lying about his history, creating fake credentials. The person correcting him has authentic credentials and is staying true to the history of British Aikido and honoring his Japanese Teachers, in short he has no mote, no plank, and a clear position to correct "the brother" who's intentionally misleading.

I think a more appropriate biblical verse should be "thou shalt not lie or create false credentials."
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