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01-09-2011, 08:19 AM
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#101
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
"If you think its all about competition then you are deluded, if you think it is all about not competing then you are also deluded."
So in the middle is about right......
Quote:
"Many talk about the martial aspect but I don't hear many talking about the Art aspect. When you have developed and gained the skills of something you become competent. Then you progress and and get more and more confident. In the end you can apply those skills at ease, in any situation, and it thus becomes a graceful application and now you are an artist. Now you have reached the art."
Better star calling myself "o" sensei then........
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01-09-2011, 08:21 AM
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#102
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote:
We all know he did condemn it as a sport so all the debates thereafter are to do with 'why?'.
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Why? Because his understanding of "sport" didn't matched with his understanding of "aikido".
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01-09-2011, 08:37 AM
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#103
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Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
Better start calling myself "o" sensei then........
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Why not? You've already borrowed the name of his martial-art.
M.
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01-09-2011, 08:39 AM
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#104
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Why not? You've already borrowed the name of his martial-art.
M.
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I'll have to "buy" into it as well then.....
I'm thinking not to call it "aikido" anymore, 'cause it upsets too many bunnies.......
Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-09-2011 at 08:49 AM.
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01-09-2011, 08:55 AM
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#105
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Dojo: Warren Budokan, Ohio USA
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 502
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
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Who cares...he's dead.
You can not ask him his opinion. Anyone attempting to speak for him is just putting words in his mouth. He's dead, his technique was flawed and it took several notable students to really refine his idea and promote it further. Most are fluff and some are not. He's dead, he could not teach as is evident with his nonsensical ramblings that are still undecipherable today as when he uttered them. He's dead, given the customs and culture of Japan in the era he lived, formality and etiquette was priority, he was a religious fanatic, who was hypocritical. He's dead, had he lived today, he would have had his ass handed to him by oh-so-many people.
You folks are alive, why worry yourself with what may or may not have been the thought of a man who has been dead longer than some of you have been alive. Go, train become proficient and knowledgable, test your skills..so you do not end up just as dead as he is before your time!
Train hard,
Train real,
Train well,
Mickey
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01-09-2011, 10:29 AM
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#106
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Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
I'll have to "buy" into it as well then.....
I'm thinking not to call it "aikido" anymore, 'cause it upsets too many bunnies.......
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Oh, welcome to Flintstone Ryu!
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01-09-2011, 11:12 AM
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#107
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote:
Oh, welcome to Flintstone Ryu!
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"Randori and Shiai (Free-practice and Competition)
In 1886 the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Academy hosted a tournament between the Kodokan and the prominent Jujutsu ryu, Totsuka-ha Yoshin-ryu, to determine which "style" the Academy would adopt into their training regiment. Of the tournament's 15 matches the Kodokan won 12, drew one and lost two (Muromoto 2005). The reason why the Kodokan was so successful at this historic meeting lies in one word: Randori. Randori or free sparring trained KanoÕs judokas in as close to real life and death combat as possible.
Randori training, unlike kata training, pits you against a fully resistive, uncooperative opponent. Only through randori and shiai does one truly test the mind, body and spirit under adverse conditions. Judo competition demands that its participants execute techniques against a fully resistive opponent, when physically drained, out of breath, and gasping for air. Such an experience can never be gained through self-defense training via kata or form work alone, no matter how realistic the scenario may be".
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01-09-2011, 11:14 AM
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#108
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote:
Who cares...he's dead.
You can not ask him his opinion. Anyone attempting to speak for him is just putting words in his mouth. He's dead, his technique was flawed and it took several notable students to really refine his idea and promote it further. Most are fluff and some are not. He's dead, he could not teach as is evident with his nonsensical ramblings that are still undecipherable today as when he uttered them. He's dead, given the customs and culture of Japan in the era he lived, formality and etiquette was priority, he was a religious fanatic, who was hypocritical. He's dead, had he lived today, he would have had his ass handed to him by oh-so-many people.
You folks are alive, why worry yourself with what may or may not have been the thought of a man who has been dead longer than some of you have been alive. Go, train become proficient and knowledgable, test your skills..so you do not end up just as dead as he is before your time!
Train hard,
Train real,
Train well,
Mickey
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Ding Dong....
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01-09-2011, 11:15 AM
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#109
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote:
Oh, welcome to Flintstone Ryu!
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Yep welcome......
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01-09-2011, 11:23 AM
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#110
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Dave Plaza wrote:
How about Egokido?!?
No offence intended, but that's one crazy ego you have my friend...
Dave
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No just honesty which you lack......
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01-09-2011, 11:27 AM
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#111
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
In 1886 the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Academy hosted a tournament between the Kodokan and the prominent Jujutsu ryu, Totsuka-ha Yoshin-ryu, to determine which "style" the Academy would adopt into their training regiment. Of the tournament's 15 matches the Kodokan won 12, drew one and lost two (Muromoto 2005). The reason why the Kodokan was so successful at this historic meeting lies in one word: Randori.
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The 1886 tournament story is most probably another made up BS.
Quote:
Randori training, unlike kata training, pits you against a fully resistive, uncooperative opponent. Only through randori and shiai does one truly test the mind, body and spirit under adverse conditions. Judo competition demands that its participants execute techniques against a fully resistive opponent, when physically drained, out of breath, and gasping for air. Such an experience can never be gained through self-defense training via kata or form work alone, no matter how realistic the scenario may be".
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I fully agree with this but this is totally unrelated with Ueshiba opinions on sport and budo and why he held said opinions.
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01-09-2011, 11:39 AM
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#112
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
The 1886 tournament story is most probably another made up BS.
I fully agree with this but this is totally unrelated with Ueshiba opinions on sport and budo and why he held said opinions.
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Who really cares .....???? Only the aiki bunnies, 'cause it doesn't fit in with their comfortable delusion.......
The truth is as I've already said.......
Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-09-2011 at 11:41 AM.
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01-09-2011, 11:50 AM
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#113
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
The truth is as I've already said.......
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Col. Jessep mode on:
The truth? You can't handle the truth!!!
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01-09-2011, 11:58 AM
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#114
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
Col. Jessep mode on:
The truth? You can't handle the truth!!!
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and you can?.....
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01-09-2011, 12:50 PM
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#115
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 464
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote:
if you think it is all about not competing then you are also deluded.
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By this standard, Koichi Tohei and O'Sensei were deluded...but then: they're widely acknowledged as possibly the two greatest aikidoka ever.
Hmm...
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01-09-2011, 12:54 PM
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#116
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 464
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
"Randori and Shiai (Free-practice and Competition)
In 1886 the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Academy hosted a tournament between the Kodokan and the prominent Jujutsu ryu, Totsuka-ha Yoshin-ryu, to determine which "style" the Academy would adopt into their training regiment. Of the tournament's 15 matches the Kodokan won 12, drew one and lost two (Muromoto 2005). The reason why the Kodokan was so successful at this historic meeting lies in one word: Randori. Randori or free sparring trained KanoÕs judokas in as close to real life and death combat as possible.
Randori training, unlike kata training, pits you against a fully resistive, uncooperative opponent. Only through randori and shiai does one truly test the mind, body and spirit under adverse conditions. Judo competition demands that its participants execute techniques against a fully resistive opponent, when physically drained, out of breath, and gasping for air. Such an experience can never be gained through self-defense training via kata or form work alone, no matter how realistic the scenario may be".
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...all those judoka who were unable to defeat aikidoka must have erm, forgotten to do their randori that week...
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01-09-2011, 12:55 PM
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#117
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote:
By this standard, Koichi Tohei and O'Sensei were deluded...but then: they're widely acknowledged as possibly the two greatest aikidoka ever.
Hmm...
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Quite possible.....
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01-09-2011, 12:57 PM
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#118
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote:
...all those judoka who were unable to defeat aikidoka must have erm, forgotten to do their randori that week...
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Graham, that is what I would expect from a bunny.......
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01-09-2011, 12:59 PM
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#119
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote:
...all those judoka who were unable to defeat aikidoka must have erm, forgotten to do their randori that week...
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You forget that all those aikidoka were judo players to start with......
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01-09-2011, 01:08 PM
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#120
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 464
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
Quite possible.....
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...yeah: I think you're missing the point I was making: namely, that aikido is about not competing, and that's how you get good at it...
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01-09-2011, 01:09 PM
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#121
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 464
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
Graham, that is what I would expect from a bunny.......
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Cool! You win! What a great argument that is!!1!
And you berate others for their inadequate explanations?
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01-09-2011, 01:11 PM
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#122
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 464
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
You forget that all those aikidoka were judo players to start with......
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QED
Damn...
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01-09-2011, 01:11 PM
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#123
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
and you can?.....
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Maybe. I'll tell you when I find it.
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01-09-2011, 01:14 PM
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#124
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote:
...yeah: I think you're missing the point I was making: namely, that aikido is about not competing, and that's how you get good at it...
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yeeeahh......
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01-09-2011, 01:17 PM
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#125
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?
Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
Maybe. I'll tell you when I find it.
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