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Old 08-15-2002, 08:42 PM   #26
sceptoor
Dojo: http://ctr.usf.edu/aikido/
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Quote:
Dave Kenser (isshinryu88) wrote:
Pretty much anyone with a sense of self-preservation wonders if Aikido or Karate or whatever will "work". But the problem, imo, is the definition of "work".

Too many people get stuck on the stuff they see in movies or read in books and "work" becomes the ability to pound someone into submission or place someone in a position where they are completely at the mercy of Aikido/Karate/whatever person.

Someone grabs me and I start a technique. They let go because they wonder what the heck I am up to. Did Aikido work? Yes, I'm no longer being grabbed. The fact that they are not now squirming on the ground as I control them or have had their head taken off from an Irimi nage is beside the point.

If I maintain a proper distance from my attacker, and concentrate only on maintaining that disatnce, he's not going to hit me and I win. It doesn't matter if I do a technique, as long as I don't get hit.

This is where Aikido has an advantage over the striking arts. I've studied Karate for 14 years. The responses to attacks I learned involve physical contact. Block and punch. Maybe something a little fancier involving some movement, but generally there's going to be direct ation taken. This is where empty hand arts get into trouble because there's always someone faster or some technique that is just quicker than the block. The philosophy of most striking arts of countering the attack with another attack sets the defender up for failure at some point. AIkido's philosophy of harmonizing with an attacker gives the Aikido person a wider range of responses.

Dave
I strongly agree and that basically sums it up. Here's my favorite part----"Did Aikido work? Yes, I'm no longer being grabbed. The fact that they are not now squirming on the ground as I control them or have had their head taken off from an Irimi nage is beside the point."

Thank you for a post very well put.

C. Martin

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Old 08-23-2002, 08:24 AM   #27
Tomlad
Dojo: Tanworth in Arden
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Hi Arno,

I'm replying to your original post because I went through the same. It was partly why I left Aikido and took up Wing Chun. "An art that can turn you in to a better fighter within 6-12 months." Needless to say I am back practising Aikido. Here are some thoughts for you...........

The basic moves in Aikido are too slow but let's not forget that if your level of Aikido is Uke grabbing your arm, then you will only cope with a similar street situation but your attacker won't keep hold of your wrist! So this is next to useless. Plus some of the moves are far too complicated, but these would not be used in a real life attack.

When you are skilled at Aikido (perhaps you already are), you can then make your Aikido smaller and more devastating.

I totally believe that Aikido can be affective but you need to be extremely competent at the art and it won't prevent you from getting hurt. It may keep you alive! Most arts are the same, with strengths and weaknesses. If you want to have a good all round set of skills then you need to be good at boxing, kicking and the floor arts such as judo and wrestling. How many lives do you need?

Let's face it. The reason most people take up a martial art is so that they can defend themselves against the maniac on the street that wants to stomp on your head. A simple punch up in a pub is something quite different.

The maniac will usually have only half a dozen well honed tricks up his sleeve but they are tried and tested. You may be down on the ground and unconscious within 10 seconds and then it's up to your attacker what they do with you.

I feel that it is not a martial art that let's most people down, it is either the fact that the maniac intimidates them to such a degree that they freeze or simply dare not fight back, or they have been deceived into thinking it's safe and then hit with a surprise attack. By the time you know about it, it's too late.

So how will Aikido help? Firstly, the confidence you will gain will make you appear less like a victim to the potential attacker. If you are walking along with your head down, hands in pockets, look inwardly, this says "Easy Target". However, with a martial art and a little confidence you can be more aware of your surroundings (giving you vital seconds warning of any attack) and have your hands free to help you. For every second after that attack you have a greater chance of beating your opponent.

Try reading some of Geoff Thompson's books on street fighting and dealing with adrenalin dumps. No martial art will prepare you to deal with a screaming lunatic in front of you.

Having several friends who are black belts at various arts they all give the same advice. Stick to your chosen art if you like the dojo and the instructor and do not look elsewhere until you have at least achieved black belt.
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Old 08-23-2002, 09:53 AM   #28
morex
 
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Hey Arno.

Well, Aikido is as real as you want to make it. And oh yeah... it is very effective, but is not a combat system. It is a Martial Art, but if what you want is a combat art, the go to ninjutsu or hapkido.

Now, I've seen Aikido work very effective on street, And you know what? That's exactly what we train for: so that we can defend ourselves and to make our lives better, not to punch and kick.

Just give Aikido some time and all your doubts will disapear.

Morex
ICQ 25185640

"Truth is the only casualty of war"
Marathon
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Old 08-23-2002, 01:50 PM   #29
DGLinden
Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
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Uke4life,

Okay, the long and short of it is yes. It works. As a nidan (about a hundred years ago) there was an incident, which, if you will share your e-mail I will discuss privately, I proved to myself and a seriously angry individual that it does. Also was there when my best friend, an aikido shihan who will remain nameless, took out a mugger. Faith, young friend. It works so much better than you can ever imagine...

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
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Old 08-23-2002, 04:22 PM   #30
TheProdigy
Dojo: Aikido Kokikai Delaware
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Yes indeed, it is effective. I say this, though really I shouldn't, for I haven't obtained the rank or seen in person any live situation of it being effective. The question of whether it's effective or not has been answered by many individuals. In my local dojo, we have several students from TKD and a few with other backgrounds in arts like karate and such. My instructor has 20yr TKD, and now 20 in aikido... he's amazing. Another student whose proven it to many people (himself included), has 8yrs karate followed by 5 in aikido. He's talked about when he questioned it and him proving to himself by sparring, or defending against attacks from other martial artists. But, in any case these are just stories. The convincing can only come from your experience.

There are tons of people who've had it proven to them, whether they're the attacker, or the nage. My best recommendation is to find a good dojo, which a teacher who can not only vouch for it, but show and explain why it works. In my style, this is of the most importance. When we train, we have the attacker give the best attack and resistance possible, and learn how to overcome this. When you find that you can throw guys who are even bigger than yourself, who are truly resisting their best, you do gain some confidence. Not only in yourself, but the art as well.

The best advice I can give is to explore. Always question whether or not this technique or that will and can work. Some techniques are their just for practice, to learn an idea. Others are solid and proven. The teacher should be able to distiguish and demonstrate both.

There are dojos not so strong. It may not be the that the teacher is bad, or the style... but perhaps an idea or 2 may not be as strong as it could be. I would suggest visiting other dojos, and finding one that convinces you.

Good luck on your journey...

Jason Hobbs
"As you walk and eat and travel, be where you are. Otherwise you will miss most of your life."
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Old 08-27-2002, 09:18 PM   #31
Ben_t_shodan
Dojo: Aikido Institute of Michigan, Seiwa Dojo
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Re: Is it worth it? And is it real?

Quote:
Arno Stemmer (Uke4life) wrote:
I love aikido. I love the harmony that is put into it.
If you liked to fish but couldn't eat the fish, would you still fish just to throw it back?

Your Uke

Ben

The one who knows the least knows it the loudest.
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Old 08-27-2002, 09:33 PM   #32
memyselfandi
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Hells no , thats just cruel. And don't give me that poop about the hook not hurting the fish you can't really believe that...unless of course you have scientific proof, in which case just ignore me

PS - I know you didn't mean it literally
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Old 08-28-2002, 12:46 AM   #33
Marty
 
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I have not read all of the post so if I am repeating anything I am sorry but your quote is "It is not the destination, but the journey." I just thought that was interesting since your problem is that the destination of Aikido (effectiveness) might not be sound (in your mind). but on the other hand you love to train in Aikido (the journey) kinda thought that was funny.

I could tell you stories of how effective Aikido is but it really does not matter what I think. The only way you will see that it is effective is to train. Find it yourself.

p.s. I have found as a note if you are sparing with a person you are trying to win trying to score pts. trying to defeat him trying to take advantage, there for you are not truly doing Aikido. It might be easier if you just think of getting out of the way and not of beating him.
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Old 09-01-2002, 11:58 AM   #34
Uke4life
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Well, to answer your question, I know my quote kinda sums up what I should do. My friend, the black belt, pointed to my quote ad said "There your answer is". I just suppose I would like my journey to be more fruitful. By this I mean for it to be more productive by me doing my absolute best in bettering myself, i.e. doing an art that is more productive. Well, enough of my ramblings, I'm off. Train safe.

It is not the destination, but the journey.
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Old 09-11-2002, 01:20 AM   #35
Jermaine Alley
Dojo: Aikido Of Richmond
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Aikido Effectiveness

I think that aikido is extremely effective. I had my times when i questioned whether or not i could pull off certain techniques when the time called for them...that time came and went.

My training now consists of trying to perfect my basics over and over again. If you couldn't pull of a response (realistic) when you were working out with your karate friend, maybe you need to step back and refocus onthe basics. Since your karate friend..is a friend..try to maximize your experience by having him or her test your grain.

Remember when it comes to trying to make this stuff work, you have to concentrate on off balancing...if that doesn't work by itself, you might want to throw in atemi. Now it is my humble opinion that atemi, doesn't always have to be a preemptive strike. It can be anything that "closes the mind of the attacker"...for me,being a police officer, that atemi usally comesin the form of OC or mace, or this expandable baton that i happen to be wearing.

In essence..go back to the basics of off balancing, atemi, deflection, entering or going tenkan, or just getting the hell out of the way....when it comes to making this stuff work.

Also remember that everyone of these over 3,000 techinques doesn't work on everyone all the time in every situations. If you remember that, you will be more prepared to deal with a host of different attacks. If this technique doesn't work, turn and twist and do something else.

Be flexible when it comes to your studies and making them work.



jermaine
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Old 09-11-2002, 09:46 AM   #36
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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I like to say (when I allow myself to say stuff in class): if someone isn't falling, you can't MAKE them fell; if someone is falling, you don't have to throw them. AiKiDo works when you manage to change your view so you can SEE that the other person is actually falling already.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 09-11-2002, 10:15 AM   #37
Chuck Clark
 
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Opher,

Well said and true! If you're ever in the Phoenix/Tempe area, please stop in and visit.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 09-11-2002, 10:17 AM   #38
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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It would be an honor.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 09-11-2002, 10:56 AM   #39
aikigreg
Dojo: Mizu Aikido
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Does it work, I dunno. Quick, somebody throw a kick at me and let's see!

Seriously - I've got belt rankings in 3 other MA's and I've been doing aiki for 6. You can train formally with lots of tenkan and beautiful flowy movements. In a street situation it's probably be a LOT of irimi - quick direct responses.

It works. You need to train hard as others have said, and do lots of randori, but in time I bet you'll come to feel confident in it.
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Old 09-11-2002, 08:43 PM   #40
Uke4life
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Thanks and I agree, keep posting you guys I like to hear opinions. Train safe.

It is not the destination, but the journey.
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Old 09-14-2002, 04:22 PM   #41
s. zangrilli
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Blush!

Quote:
Bronson Diffin (Bronson) wrote:
Question:

Answer: I don't see any female respondents here so,i'm going to add my two cents . i resently began wondering if aikido was going to be effective for me in a real attack. My instuctor has recently introduced "realistic & aggresive" attacks. It didn't matter how I moved or what I did I was completly overwhelmed (swarmed might be a better word) by male partners who out weighed me by at lest 100 lbs. Not only was I unable to deal effectivly with the attack, I panicked and found myself swinging at anybody who came close to me because I was terrified. Including my sensei when he came up behind me. I finaly collapsed in tears, totally humilliated by the experiance.

While I hold the rank of shodan, I don't by any means consider that to be an expert level. It is my opion that it takes many years of training to able to deal with the mainac on the street who is going to overwhelm you no matter what. At 47 i don't have that much time
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Old 09-15-2002, 07:23 AM   #42
nic an fhilidh
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Just curious ... how "realistic" is an attack where you are swarmed by people who outweigh you by 100 lbs? I mean, such an attack could happen, but the vast majority of street attacks I read about are straightforward muggings, carjackings etc. involving two attackers at the most.
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Old 09-15-2002, 11:59 AM   #43
s. zangrilli
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Quote:
Ann Northcutt (nic an fhilidh) wrote:
Just curious ... how "realistic" is an attack where you are swarmed by people who outweigh you by 100 lbs? I mean, such an attack could happen, but the vast majority of street attacks I read about are straightforward muggings, carjackings etc. involving two attackers at the most.
It was a one on one, but it was full power and anything I did was completly resisted. I was just overpowered by the "attacker".
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Old 09-15-2002, 03:17 PM   #44
Brian H
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
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Can you move off the line, take an opponents (hey- we are not on the mat here) center, rob him of his balance and throw him with an atemi or four stuck in there somewhere?

That is real.

Aikido is real, maybe someday my Aikido will be too . Until then I will be happy if I can move off the line and just not be where the blow falls.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
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Old 09-15-2002, 09:14 PM   #45
s. zangrilli
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Moving off the line assumes that the attacker is going to move in a straight line right past you. Realistly, an attacker will follow where you move to. I have not been effective in robbing the balance of big burly men who aut weigh me by 100 lbs. They are very stiff and difficult to move regardless of the laws of physics. It's a lot like trying to do an irimi on an oak tree. you just bounce off.
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Old 09-16-2002, 03:00 AM   #46
mike lee
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Cool secret aikido

Unless you're talking about the Ents, oak trees don't attack.

If you try to do irimi-nage on someone who is strong (or aikido wise) and hasn't attacked first, it will be very difficult to do anything except maybe shoot them -- unless you know the force (above san dan?) and take them by surprise.

I don't really know how this "moving off the line" started (a miss-translation from Koichi Tohei?), but if you try that in the street, you'll be lucky to survive.

I've been taught to never ever move off the line -- but to control the line -- become the line.

Opps. Now another one of my secrets is out!

-- More words count less.

Last edited by mike lee : 09-16-2002 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 09-16-2002, 05:11 AM   #47
Brian H
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I don't know what the hang up with big uke is. If he were alive today, I would tower over O'Sensei. Could I just have my way with him? I really doubt it.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
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Old 09-16-2002, 09:27 AM   #48
Kevin Leavitt
 
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I have found that we watch sensei do technique...then we try to replicate it...literally.

I have found that you have to modify technique based on differences of size and height.

For years I spent watching my teachers whose hara was fairly in line with Uke...If you watch Saotome sensei he does not have to move much to break uke's center since his hara is typically several inches lower than most of his uke...therefore, he can do technique without bendind knees much.

Me on the other hand, I find that I sometimes must go almost to me knees in order to get hara lower than uke's sometimes.

The point is...you cannot always apply technique literally, explore and find what works for you. If you are wrong, sensei will show you. Principle is what matters.

My old instructor (Bob) used to say...if uke goes high, you go low...nothing wrong with doing irimi nage to his legs if he is big and wants to hold a high strong posture! (Brian, you know what I am talking about!! )

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Old 09-17-2002, 12:43 PM   #49
rgfox5
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My favorite quote on this subject:

Ikeda sensei (Boulder Aikikai) was teaching at the DC Summer Camp in July, and said "Some people ask, does aikido work or not? I can only tell you, my aikido works. Does yours work, I'm not sure. That's up to you."

Rich
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Old 09-18-2002, 05:57 PM   #50
Roy Dean
 
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Sheila, thank you for sharing your experience. I'm sure if more people practiced "realistic" and aggressive attacks, they would find out their responses aren't quite as good as they imagined them to be.

Size and strength do matter. A lot. More than people believe or want to believe.

Every art has the potential to be effective. Techniques are somewhat important. Training method is far more important. Attributes are also far more important (i.e. sensitivity, timing, power, explosiveness, endurance, killer instinct, etc) than the techniques you employ. Without attributes, the movements we call techniques are empty and ineffective.

Aikido CAN work. But the training methods employed at most schools don't lend themselves to street effectiveness, as they mainly develop certain attributes (namely sensitivity and timing) while neglecting many many others. Against a skilled or athletic opponent... I daresay the aikidoka would not fare well.

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